TDK vs CA: TWS

[OcStat]

That's not a plus, it just is.

You know, TWS takes place in daytime, and TDK at night, maybe you think that's a plus.

That can be a pretty big plus to some people. It isn't too much to ask for the title character to be the films focus.

 

[Drz]

Everything about the movie was about Batman and what he had done. What he was doing, and how it was changing the city and it's citizens.

 

[Marvin]

Everything about the movie was about Batman and what he had done. What he was doing, and how it was changing the city and it's citizens.

It's not so direct and or obvious.
A telling difference imo.

 

[Drz]

If you don't see it, then you don't pay attention to the movie.

The cops are winning over the mobs, because of Batman.
Harvey Dent is winning over the mobs, because of Batman.
The mobsters are gathering together and trying to make a plan to save themselves, because of Batman.
Joker emerges, because of Batman. Joker wants to kill Batman and become rich, but later realizes Batman =/= Harvey Dent, and then learns to love the idea of torturing Batman.

The list could go on, but the point is: Everything Batman has done and is doing, effects Gotham.

 

[jmc]

The fact that TWS was about Captain America, and TDK, Batman was a secondary character.

WS wasn't about Cap at all, in fact it wasn't even about The Winter Soldier. I don't understand that conclusion given that both films are not about their respective lead characters, in both instances someone else is the backbone of the movie. With TDK it's Dent, with WS it's Pierce. Dent is more prominent than what Pierce is but that doesn't take away anything in regards to it being a Batman film. The main difference between the two films is TDK is far more an ensemble piece, but to say Batman is secondary is kinda absurd.

 

[OcStat]

That sounds like a more off base claim than what was said about TDK. TWS was more about Pierce, than Captain America really?

Everything about the movie was about Batman and what he had done. What he was doing, and how it was changing the city and it's citizens.

Yeah I agree, focus was probably the wrong word I guess. But I've seen a others make that statement, about Batman in TDK, there's reasons someone can think that about the movie. The story revolves around Batman but he doesn't seem to get as much screen time, maybe.

But if Tony Stark says its a plus to his personal enjoyment when comparing two movies, who's DA to say it isn't.

Joker wants to kill Batman and become rich, but later realizes Batman =/= Harvey Dent, and then learns to love the idea of torturing Batman.

Yes to everything but this. Kind of deviating here, but I don't think Joker was ever after money. Possibly he wanted to kill Batman at first, but he knows that's what he had to tell the mob to get them to back him. And he's a liar.

 

[jmc]

If you don't see it, then you don't pay attention to the movie.

The cops are winning over the mobs, because of Batman.
Harvey Dent is winning over the mobs, because of Batman.
The mobsters are gathering together and trying to make a plan to save themselves, because of Batman.
Joker emerges, because of Batman. Joker wants to kill Batman and become rich, but later realizes Batman =/= Harvey Dent, and then learns to love the idea of torturing Batman.

The list could go on, but the point is: Everything Batman has done and is doing, effects Gotham.

Exactly, and the thing to remember is that Gotham, probably more than any other fictional city, is a huge part of the Batman story. The Batman story is more than just Bruce Wayne in costume and that's what that film shows.

 

[jmc]

That sounds like a more off base claim than what was said about TDK. TWS was more about Pierce, than Captain America really?

The film is centred around a rogue government element, Pierce is the de facto head of that element. Caps job in that film is to essentially find them and stop them, it's like a classic James Bond film whereby the films are never really about Bond, they are about the villains and their great plans in destroying whatever. Again, it's not as prominent as Dent's story in TDK, but it's still the backbone of the movie.

 

[DA_Champion]

Where was the winter soldier in The Winter Soldier?

 

[Shikamaru]

"Winter Soldier" is a double entendre. There is Bucky's alias, and then there is Thomas Paine's term: someone who always fights for a cause no matter what, unlike "summer soldiers" who fight for a cause only when it's easy. Both Bucky and Steve are technically "winter soldiers" respectively.

 

[OcStat]

!

Didn't know the origin of the term, that's a pretty awesome duality.

 

[jmc]

I'll guarantee you 99% or people would not get the second reference. I'm not even convinced it was intentional.

 

[Hammer!]

"Winter Soldier" is a double entendre. There is Bucky's alias, and then there is Thomas Paine's term: someone who always fights for a cause no matter what, unlike "summer soldiers" who fight for a cause only when it's easy. Both Bucky and Steve are technically "winter soldiers" respectively.

Thank god someone else noticed the Paine reference!

They're obviously saving the meat of Bucky's contemporary characterization for the sequel. If not, then I'd be disappointed. But I thought they used Bucky brilliantly, just like Brubaker did in his first fourteen issues.

 

[jmc]

Yeah, I'm convinced that's way more of a happy coincidence than an actual reference, it's too obscure.

 

[Hammer!]

Yeah, I'm convinced that's way more of a happy coincidence than an actual reference, it's too obscure.

I don't think Brubaker did, but I read early on in production that the Russos' did...or am I crazy? Could of sworn, someone help me out here.

In the end it doesn't matter. People find thematic elements in films all the time that wasn't intended that makes the film that much more compelling (Ex. Invasion of the Body Snatchers pod people as conformed communists, etc.)

Enough reviewers mentioned it so it'll certainly be around when people look at the film in retrospect in five years.

EDIT: I think Brubaker got the name from the 1972 war documentary The Winter Soldier.

 

[Marvin]

I'll guarantee you 99% or people would not get the second reference. I'm not even convinced it was intentional.

I personally didn't get it, but it's definitely pretty snazzy.

If it's not covered/alluded to in the book or depends on external knowledge I don't see that many people getting it tbh.

Thank god someone else noticed the Paine reference!

They're obviously saving the meat of Bucky's contemporary characterization for the sequel. If not, then I'd be disappointed. But I thought they used Bucky brilliantly, just like Brubaker did in his first fourteen issues.

I think the animated Earths Mightiest Heroes presented the situation/character better. You can tell the bucky story without him being a mute terminator. At the very least it goes a long way to delivering on the finale fight.
...character motivation.

 

[OcStat]

The title works both ways, Captain America is The First Avenger, and he is "The" Winter Soldier,Bucky has the name, but Bucky is not consciously himself, he isn't fighting for any cause, he's not even taking orders. He's being programmed to complete objectives.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

I did not like how the storyline was presented in EMH...at all. I was very disappointed actually.

 

[jmc]

I don't think Brubaker did, but I read early on in production that the Russos' did...or am I crazy? Could of sworn, someone help me out here.

In the end it doesn't matter. People find thematic elements in films all the time that wasn't intended that makes the film that much more compelling (Ex. Invasion of the Body Snatchers pod people as conformed communists, etc.)

Enough reviewers mentioned it so it'll certainly be around when people look at the film in retrospect in five years.

EDIT: I think Brubaker got the name from the 1972 war documentary The Winter Soldier.

I can see how you can get there, it's just the wording in the original text is such that it seems more like people are putting the 'Winter Soldier' term in there to fit as opposed to the words actually mentioning it, it's like those Nostradamus predictions how people retroactively place historical events in his 'predictions'. I think it's more a happy accident more than anything else.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

I'm pretty sure the people who didn't watch the trailers before going in would have thought Cap was TWS anyway.

 

[Hammer!]

I did not like how the storyline was presented in EMH...at all. I was very disappointed actually.

Yeah I hated it. Hated Bucky in flashback scenes as well in that series. The terminator approach to Winter Soldier is pretty much exactly what he was in Brubaker's first arc. His role is more a character arc for steve in this film. Bucky will get his contemporary arc in Cap 3. Hard to get your own character arc in a film your brainwashed the entire film and your only thoughts belong to the mission.

 

[Hammer!]

I can see how you can get there, it's just the wording in the original text is such that it seems more like people are putting the 'Winter Soldier' term in there to fit as opposed to the words actually mentioning it, it's like those Nostradamus predictions how people retroactively place historical events in his 'predictions'. I think it's more a happy accident more than anything else.

Yeah I really wish I knew the answer. I do feel pretty confident that Bru came up with the name after the 1972 film though; swear he mentioned in the back of his omnibus.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Yeah I hated it. Hated Bucky in flashback scenes as well in that series. The terminator approach to Winter Soldier is pretty much exactly what he was in Brubaker's first arc. His role is more a character arc for steve in this film. Bucky will get his contemporary arc in Cap 3. Hard to get your own character arc in a film your brainwashed the entire film and your only thoughts belong to the mission.

The ironic thing is they gave Bucky more to say and more to do in EMH, yet to me he was much less sympathetic than he was in this movie and the Brubaker storyline. I definitely prefer the terminator approach and thought it was executed very well in the movie.

 

[Shikamaru]

I'll guarantee you 99% or people would not get the second reference. I'm not even convinced it was intentional.

Anyone who's taken history classes in American universities (and payed attention) has heard of the term "winter soldier". I doubt no one from the production crew knew that going in.

Even if it wasn't intentional, that's what's great about all forms of art (film included). They gain a life of their own.

 

[Hammer!]

The ironic thing is they gave Bucky more to say and more to do in EMH, yet to me he was much less sympathetic than he was in this movie and the Brubaker storyline. I definitely prefer the terminator approach and thought it was executed very well in the movie.

Guarantee, if they went the EMH route, a contingent of people would complain about him being "emo".