Television Civil War: Marvel TV vs DCTV

[psylockolussus]

I have no answer. I don't watch any DC shows and I never will. Aos sucks and it still not great even if they shoe horned the Inhumans and Ghost Rider. Agent Carter had 1 good season then a sophomore slump happened.

Obviously, the Netflix shows are best that Marvel TV is currently doing. But it looks too budget TV for me. It is like if a Marv el movie was produced through a kickstarter campaign, it would look like the Netflix shows. They obviously make up for character development, but binge watching 13 episodes that are usually 55 minutes long is quite a chore and lacks that replay value for me unlike the movies. Like I feel like I just want to skip all the talking and just watch the really important scenes.

 

[Ghost_Rider]

You do realize that many people can make multiple accounts to downvote or upvote movies or shows that love or hate on imdb in order to drastically change the rating. It's not that hard to do. Plus a lot of the ratings were scored when the show first came out which at that time the show wasn't as good. However imo Supergirl has gotten better just like Gotham, Legends of Tomorrow, and Agents of Shield.

That would indeed take a lot of effort, and Supergirl's mediocre rating has been more or less steady since the show premiered. They also would need accounts on RT to do the same on there. Plus, if you look at the breakdown, you have a sizeable chunk scoring the show a '10'.

I doubt there is a massive conspiracy theory here. That's really reaching for excuses. It's more a refection of the quality of the series. It got a mixed and mediocre reception, compounded by it's big loss of viewership on CBS.

It doesn't matter if the show got better or not at this point, it's audience has shrunk massively.

While SHIELD did get better, it did start off rocky and deserves it's 7.5 rating on IMDB. It was Marvel Studio's first TV venture and they've improved their new shows by leaps and bounds since.

I'm not surprised Daredevil is sitting pretty at 8.8. It was received better than any of these shows.

Iron Fist, Defenders and Punisher have the best chance of dethroning DD.


It's funny, people made excuses before that audiences were downvoting Supergirl because of sexism. Yet, Agent Carter and Jessica Jones were rated 8.1 and 8.2 respectively.

It's more likely because Supergirl is straight up cheese, and that doesn't appeal to a lot of audiences.

 

[psylockolussus]

IMDb can easily be manipulated. It is almost as unreliable as TV critics slash bloggers and, none of these shows ever got some recognition from the big TV awards like the Emmy's and even the Golden Globes or get listed on AFI's annual lists (which the other SciFi or action shows managed to achieved in the past).

 

[Ghost_Rider]

IMDb can easily be manipulated. It is almost as unreliable as TV critics slash bloggers and, none of these shows ever got some recognition from the big TV awards like the Emmy's and even the Golden Globes or get listed on AFI's annual lists (which the other SciFi or action shows managed to achieved in the past).

What's interesting about IMDB is the ratings for these shows on there line up almost exactly with the audience ratings on RT.

See for yourself.

It would take a lot of effort to manipulate IMDB at this stage of the game. You could make several multiple accounts and you likely wouldn't be able to change a percentage on there.

And Supergirl's score was consistent since the get-go, so it's not like someone actively altered things. The score is a reflection of the show's initial reception and current reception from polled viewers.

 

[Slade W]

I mean, it's nice that you brought that discussion over.

We aren't going to have it here though.

I can't find the passion to defend or attack CW's Arrow at this point. The show is just too far gone and it's like beating a dead horse.

You have been responding to me quite a lot. It is safe to say you have quite a bit of passion for the topic in question. Your persistence in taking little shots at the show and responding to me demonstrates that.

The show simply deserves my apathy. I think the million plus other viewers that stopped watching it over the year feel the same.

Well then, it is about time you start demonstrating this apathy you claim to have by no longer responding to me about the show and taking little shots at it in your posts. You know well that the reviews by sites that were critical of the show last season have been positive about it this year so far, as well as posters on here and other sites, yet you ignore that. That certainly suggests you have far more than apathy for the show, in addition to your refusal to accept any possibility that the show has in fact improved and is good again. The show had higher ratings last year, yet it is evident by the response from everyone, be it fans, or people who write reviews about the show, that is has improved significantly. The 2nd half of season 2 is considered the peak of the show and Arrow at its finest, yet other seasons 2nd halves have superior ratings. Using only ratings as the measure of quality is quite flawed.

To be honest, it's not worth your own time or emotional investment fighting over these things. After everything Guggenheim and Mercle have said and done, it's hard to believe they still have a few people defending them and their work as quality. Mind blown.
.

Nobody here is fighting. This is simply a discussion. The idea of this being considered a fight is quite humorous. The quality of the show has been good this year, with an engaging plot and villain, and a considerable amount of throwbacks to seasons 1. When someone states an opinion I disagree with, I will reply and clarify why. That is the purpose of message boards such as these. It is harder to believe that someone refuses to acknowledge the possibility that the show has recovered, if only in the short-term (we are yet to see if the quality can be maintained over the course of an entire season), despite there being a lot to suggest that it in fact has. You will find plenty of people willing to defend the show this year, as it has earned that, like good shows and movies do. If it were to drop the ball, and there were to be a decline in the level of quality and storytelling, you will see the appraisal by fans and reviewers disappear quite quickly.

 

[Ghost_Rider]

It really depends on where you look. There was tons of praise for last season on Tumblr from a lot of die-hards.
I'm sure there was hate towards the show on certain fanboy-heavy message boards like this one.

Looking online for the opinions of random groups of fanboys on messageboards won't really prove much.
The biggest proof that the quality of the show hasn't improved to an acceptable level and the show is still in mediocre territory is the fact that ratings are still low.

The million plus who gave up on the series haven't returned, despite them turning in for the team-up episode.

They were gone again by the episode that followed it.


That speaks volumes. The show has reached levels of stupidity that viewers no longer want to get invested in, nor do they care about these characters anymore.

Shark jumped long ago. Hence why my choice word of 'apathy' is justified.

 

[Slade W]

It really depends on where you look. There was tons of praise for last season on Tumblr from a lot of die-hards.
I'm sure there was hate towards the show on certain fanboy-heavy message boards like this one.

Tumblr is quite heavy in terms of shippers though. I am sure they were loving last season, with the focus on Felicity, her family and her relationship with Oliver. These things were the focal point of the show, to many viewers chagrin, during times when the spotlight should have been more on Oliver and Darhk. You are correct in saying that there was negativity on here, twitter and other boards last season.

Looking online for the opinions of random groups of fanboys on messageboards won't really prove much.
The biggest proof that the quality of the show hasn't improved to an acceptable level and the show is still in mediocre territory is the fact that ratings are still low.

But the 2nd half of season 2, which is viewed as the peak of the show and Arrow at its finest, had inferior ratings to other seasons second halves. I don't think many will agree that it would finish any lower than 1st place when it comes to the shows 2nd halves, in terms of quality and entertainment. Using ratings alone is flawed. It is clear to me that damage was done and faith from viewers was lost from last season. I disagree with your conclusion based on the ratings that the show is mediocre, although I am glad you have changed your stance on it being outright poor.

The million plus who gave up on the series haven't returned, despite them turning in for the team-up episode.

They were gone again by the episode that followed it.


That speaks volumes. The show has reached levels of stupidity that viewers no longer want to get invested in, nor do they care about these characters anymore.

Shark jumped long ago. Hence why my choice word of 'apathy' is justified. .

Like I said earlier, using ratings alone is flawed, as the example of season twos latter half proves. If the show maintains its current ratings, yet continues to get a good reception from fans and reviewers, then I do not see how it can be said that it is poor. There were lots of episodes last year that were of much, much lower quality, yet were receiving better ratings than this years. Judging this years quality simply by the ratings that have suffered a decline due to last years mishaps is disingenuous, especially when said episodes have been receiving a positive reception by fans and reviewers.

 

[Xrated48]

While I think this season of Arrow started off bad, I think it's finally back on the right track at least the past 3 episodes.

 

[Ghost_Rider]

Tumblr is quite heavy in terms of shippers though. I am sure they were loving last season, with the focus on Felicity, her family and her relationship with Oliver. These things were the focal point of the show, to many viewers chagrin, during times when the spotlight should have been more on Oliver and Darhk. You are correct in saying that there was negativity on here, twitter and other boards last season.



But the 2nd half of season 2, which is viewed as the peak of the show and Arrow at its finest, had inferior ratings to other seasons second halves. I don't think many will agree that it would finish any lower than 1st place when it comes to the shows 2nd halves, in terms of quality and entertainment. Using ratings alone is flawed. It is clear to me that damage was done and faith from viewers was lost from last season. I disagree with your conclusion based on the ratings that the show is mediocre, although I am glad you have changed your stance on it being outright poor.



Like I said earlier, using ratings alone is flawed, as the example of season twos latter half proves. If the show maintains its current ratings, yet continues to get a good reception from fans and reviewers, then I do not see how it can be said that it is poor. There were lots of episodes last year that were of much, much lower quality, yet were receiving better ratings than this years. Judging this years quality simply by the ratings that have suffered a decline due to last years mishaps is disingenuous, especially when said episodes have been receiving a positive reception by fans and reviewers.

Again, you can find positive reviews in certain corners of the net for even the bad episodes of the series.

As far as the shippers go, I think many viewers are smart enough to know that these showrunners will bring 'Olicity' back when they have the right opportunity to do so. It's too soon to be blindly optimistic and forgive the people behind this series for the terrible mistakes they've made in past years. They haven't done enough lately to warrant such a reaction. It would be hyperbolic right now.


Bottom line, until CW's Arrow "improves" to a point where it can gain a reasonable portion of it's lost viewership back (the million plus chunk that gave up on Arrow this year) and has enough positive word of mouth to do so, the so-called "improvements" are too little, too late.
They are as subjective as the supposed improvements to Gotham, Legends, Supergirl and other shows of overtly divisive and mixed reception.

 

[Slade W]

Again, you can find positive reviews in certain corners of the net for even the bad episodes of the series.

Of course, but you do not have to look particularly hard to find positive appraisal, be it from fans or reviews, of any of the episodes this year. That was far from the case last season.

As far as the shippers go, I think many viewers are smart enough to know that these showrunners will bring 'Olicity' back when they have the right opportunity to do so. It's too soon to be blindly optimistic and forgive the people behind this series for the terrible mistakes they've made in past years. They haven't done enough lately to warrant such a reaction. It would be hyperbolic right now..

I admit the revival of Olicity is something that I am concerned about possibly happening. They have killed the relationship so far, and both Oliver and Felicity have found new partners. I agree with you that people are right to be worried regarding them being brought back, and it is the show-runners own fault people have such concerns. With that said, I have only been discussing what I have seen so far, which I feel has been good and has received the reception I feel it deserves. If the 2nd half of the season suffers due to them bringing back that relationship, or whatever other disaster Guggenheim could possibly cook up, then it will receive the criticism that it deserves from both fans and reviewers. With that said, I still do not feel that what they have given us so far should be disregarded. It has been good and fans are happy, so credit to them for turning things around in that regard. of course, caution would be advised, and you are correct in that the 2nd half improving, let alone maintaining the standard, is not a given.

Bottom line, until CW's Arrow "improves" to a point where it can gain a reasonable portion of it's lost viewership back (the million plus chunk that gave up on Arrow this year) and has enough positive word of mouth to do so, the so-called "improvements" are too little, too late.
They are as subjective as the supposed improvements to Gotham, Legends, Supergirl and other shows of overtly divisive and mixed reception
.

Arrows reviews are not mixed this season though. Things have been mostly positive. Arrow gaining its viewership back is not necessarily a guarantee of quality either, as I have mentioned before, it has better rating last year, yet was still on the receiving end of negativity from reviews from fans and reviewers. Ratings alone are not a guarantee of quality, just like box office isn't for movies.

 

[DrCosmic]

So...

Daredevil Season 2 puts the entire rest of these shows to bed. I'm sorry, as much as I love the Flash, there's just no candle to be held here. Flash, Supergirl, Arrow and Legends of Tomorrow have charm and fun, and they have MASTERED the art of fanservice to a degree that even the MCU can't quite match. But there are times these shows get so bad, and so stupid, and insult the audience so badly, that it is impossible for me to see them as "good" shows. Worse, they do so consistently and whittle away at their own audience. So much so that the only thing the show becomes good for for people who made the show relevant *is* fanservice, and once the crossover episode is over, we let it go again.

While Netflix is more serious, and at times slow, it always is going somewhere interesting, and I don't ever feel like I wasted my time, that developments will be retconned away with a handwave or resolved in "Martha" levels of hamfisted sentimentality. Jessica Jones, the worst of the Netflix bunch so far wasted tons of potential, but even their neutered purple man was cooler, more charming and more engaging than all but Deathstroke and Evil Wells on the CW, and even then, those characters have been hilariously butchered to a point that tarnishes their contributions in my eyes.

Cage was a beautiful celebration of Harlem, in addition to being chocked full of well humanized badasses and intrigue. Even Daredevil season 1 had Kingpin, who just mops the floor with any villain, and I never, once, was annoyed with Matt and Karen being dragged out, or felt confident that their breakup was temporary.

Now, Agents of SHIELD can take a long walk of a short pier as far as I'm concerned. Before Legends of Tomorrow, it was the worst conceived show I could have imagined. Remember that guy everyone loved as a heroically sacrificed plucky comic relief for our best superheroes? Let's bring him back to life as a Mal Reynolds impression and surround him with a team full of plucky comic relief with no superheroes at all! BRILLIANT. Cut the check!

I've no doubt they've done things worth mentioning with AoS, but as with Arrow season 5 (five!) there's a such thing as too little too late with TV shows. Heroes Season 4, like LOST Season 6, was a dramatic improvement, but when shows take a great premise and end up cannibalizing themselves and running in circles for 2-3 years and then say, okay, NOW we will advance the story in interesting new directions as would be appropriate for a season 2, a lot of people don't care anymore.

Agent Carter was fun, but also an odd expansion, like doing a Deadshot solo or something, and worse, it simply didn't cash in on the post-WWII Marvel Universe very well, which feels like wasted opportunity as well. The fun promised in the Agent Carter one-shot that justified the show's existence wasn't followed up on. Similar, imho, to the fun from the Item 47 one shot. Marvel's network TV division is a mess and one step from being a clown show. I appreciate the work that these guys put into it, but man... what a shame.

I think the Arrowverse is on it's final decline. I think they're running out of fanservice (Vigilante INO) and ways they can keep the shows the same without changing the cast they love so much. I still enjoy the romp and cheese and fanservice in Flash and Supergirl, however, if I had to choose Netflix's character development that is consistent and progressive over the far superior costumes (seriously, DD's "real" costume sucks, I wish he'd go back to the black) and fanservice of the CW, I'd have to go with a show that doesn't insult me, that has actions that actually mean something and are worth my time to watch, that actually touches on some real life issues in a way that isn't entirely juvenille or insulting and boasts superhero action set pieces that are actually engaging to watch, like the fights Arrow left behind long ago. I'd like to watch superhero shows that have a fracking clue what to do with their female and minority characters, that aren't in any way in competition with silver screen versions of those same characters and liable to have characters 'taken' from them at a whim. I'd like to watch superhero shows that are well plotted instead of plotted on the fly, with compelling villains. Most importantly, I'd like to watch superhero shows that add something to the mythos, instead of just calling me to remember how much I loved the original comics so much.

Rant over, I guess.

 

[Ghost_Rider]

To Doctor Cosmic:

Arrows reviews are not mixed this season though. Things have been mostly positive. Arrow gaining its viewership back is not necessarily a guarantee of quality either, as I have mentioned before, it has better rating last year, yet was still on the receiving end of negativity from reviews from fans and reviewers. Ratings alone are not a guarantee of quality, just like box office isn't for movies.

I'd say ratings are a considerable indicator of quality with regards to TV, considering the general ratings trends of a series and the demo. Arrow has definitely not reached a point of supposed 'positive' buzz where those who gave up on the series are turning in again.

And again, this is despite a massive ratings boost during the teamup (up to 3.55 M), and none of those viewers stayed around to see Arrow's storylines play out in the next episode.

That is a significant sign of apathy. Things may be 'mostly positive' in your little corner. But the reality is that the show hasn't improved significantly enough or brought up enough positive buzz to bring back it's sizeable audience lost.

If you had positive buzz on the level of S2, with Manu's performance, perhaps it may be possible. But IMO it's clearly too late for that now.


I will also lay down odds with you that Olicity will continue in the back half of this season. They killed off Felicity's random underdeveloped love interest. It's painfully obvious that Oliver's love interest will betray him or be killed.

And I noticed in the upcoming promos, they are starting to frame Oliver and Felicity together in the shots. There's no way Guggenheim and Mercle don't keep their relationship drama going. They're all about 'fanservice' and they do it to cover up a lack of talent when it comes to writing compelling material.

 

[Slade W]

I'd say ratings are a considerable indicator of quality with regards to TV, considering the general ratings trends of a series and the demo. Arrow has definitely not reached a point of supposed 'positive' buzz where those who gave up on the series are turning in againl.

If they are as considerable as you suggest, then why did the latter half of season 2 come up short in terms of rating against inferior seasons? Season 3 and 4 had superior ratings in plenty of their episodes, yet I doubt many would consider them to be superior.

That is a significant sign of apathy. Things may be 'mostly positive' in your little corner. But the reality is that the show hasn't improved significantly enough or brought up enough positive buzz to bring back it's sizeable audience lost. .

My little corner? Try most forums, reddit, articles reviewing the show and twitter etc. The ratings didn't pick up in the latter half of season 2 either. I guess there was not much positive buzz then, despite it being considered the peak of the show. I guess season 4 wasn't so bad, as it had the ratings you say the show requires in order to be considered good.

If you had positive buzz on the level of S2, with Manu's performance, perhaps it may be possible. But IMO it's clearly too late for that now.

Like how the ratings picked up in the latter half of season 2 when they started to get more into the nitty gritty regarding Deathstroke?

I will also lay down odds with you that Olicity will continue in the back half of this season. They killed off Felicity's love interest. It's painfully obvious that Oliver's love interest will betray him or be killed.

And I noticed in the upcoming promos, they are starting to frame Oliver and Felicity together in the shots. There's no way Guggenheim and Mercle don't keep their relationship drama going. They're all about 'fanservice' and they do it to cover up a lack of talent when it comes to writing compelling material. .

You are probably right. That will suck if it happens. If it does happen, and it wouldn't surprise me if it does, I will worry about it then.

 

[Ghost_Rider]

Arrow S3 ratings were good because of the positive buzz gradually and slowly built up over S2.

I don't think the audience wanted to accept that Arrow could actually suck at that point. People were fully invested in that Midseason cliffhanger.

The reality of what terrible abomination Arrow was becoming only gradually became apparent during the backhalf of S3, amidst Penicillin Tea deus ex machinas, bloodlust and whatnot.

And the ratings gradually continued to fall during S4, like a woodpecker slowly chipping away at a tree.

Could the ratings now improve if the 'quality' of S5 provides sufficient positive buzz? Anything is possible.

Will it happen? Likely not.

 

[kguillou]

I think the CW shows are victims of their format and its what holds them back from being truly great. Each of those shows are 22-23 episodes long and I think the writers struggle to keep everything fresh and keep the momentum going for that long. DD, JJ, and Luke Cage are using the HBO/ Showtime format of storytelling where they consist of 13 episodes and each episode is a chapter in one story arc. Arrow, Flash, Supergirl and LoT all have larger story arcs that they build to but because there are so many episodes each season they often have to detour with an episodic format and villain of the week so the momentum of the "real" story gets stalled and the character development gets stunted. The MCU Netflix shows don't have time to stall, they have a small episode count so each episode counts.

Look at a show like The 100, another CW show but DRASTICALLY different in tone and execution from the DC shows. Its a serialized show thats telling an overall story and each episode is important to the story arc being told. There's no throwaway. That show is also 16 episodes. I think the DC shows would be so so so much better if they adopted The 100's template in terms of storytelling.

 

[DrCosmic]

Thanks G_R, I really appreciate that.

I think the CW shows are victims of their format and its what holds them back from being truly great. Each of those shows are 22-23 episodes long and I think the writers struggle to keep everything fresh and keep the momentum going for that long. DD, JJ, and Luke Cage are using the HBO/ Showtime format of storytelling where they consist of 13 episodes and each episode is a chapter in one story arc. Arrow, Flash, Supergirl and LoT all have larger story arcs that they build to but because there are so many episodes each season they often have to detour with an episodic format and villain of the week so the momentum of the "real" story gets stalled and the character development gets stunted. The MCU Netflix shows don't have time to stall, they have a small episode count so each episode counts.

Look at a show like The 100, another CW show but DRASTICALLY different in tone and execution from the DC shows. Its a serialized show thats telling an overall story and each episode is important to the story arc being told. There's no throwaway. That show is also 16 episodes. I think the DC shows would be so so so much better if they adopted The 100's template in terms of storytelling.

I think that's a part of it, the episode count is a significant challenge. I think there are shows doing 20+ episodes a year and doing a case of the week along with a serial storyline that handle the challenge so, SO much better. I'd argue even Supernatural handles it better, and their ratings have stayed in the 2-3 million viewer pocket for ten years. To say nothing of shows like Blacklist, 24 or Once Upon a Time that have won awards at 20+ eps a year.

 

[Slade W]

Arrow S3 ratings were good because of the positive buzz gradually and slowly built up over S2.

I don't think the audience wanted to accept that Arrow could actually suck at that point. People were fully invested in that Midseason cliffhanger.

How do you know this for sure regarding season 3? Despite people saying that season 2 got stronger as it went on, the ratings declined at the end.

The reality of what terrible abomination Arrow was becoming only gradually became apparent during the backhalf of S3, amidst Penicillin Tea deus ex machinas, bloodlust and whatnot.
.

Real men come back from the dead with penicillin tea, not Lazarus pits. Penicillin tea is a far more badass way to come back to life than Lazarus pits .

In all seriousness, I agree. The manner in which he was revived was pitiful writing, and very underwhelming, as people expected something more.

And the ratings gradually continued to fall during S4, like a woodpecker slowly chipping away at a tree.

It was actually after episode 15 where the ratings started to drop significantly. The ending in that episode seriously annoyed a lot of people. My feeling on the matter is that people were growing weary of the increased focus on Olicity, with the drama that it entailed, and that was the last straw. The ending before the break after episode 15 is usually devoted to an important moment, and Arrow decided to put the spotlight on their relationship, whereas Flash got the Zoom reveal, in comparison. The focus seemed to be moving away from what a comicbook TV show should be focused on, and more on relationship drama and Felicity and her family.

Could the ratings now improve if the 'quality' of S5 provides sufficient positive buzz? Anything is possible.

Will it happen? Likely not..

If Deathstroke in season 2 was unable to generate that, then it wouldn't be surprising if they don't. Like I have mentioned previously regarding ratings, the best episodes have not had the best ratings. This year has undoubtedly been better than last season, and the reviews back that up, yet the ratings come up short in comparison. Relying on them alone is flawed.

 

[Batmannerism]

I'd recommend at least giving the shows a chance before making judgements. For adult viewers, they actually have a lot to offer. Though if you feel you have a preference for the lighter stuff, that's fine.

To me, light or dark doesn't matter, it's all about intelligent writing. The Marvel films have a lot of light moments, but the writing is handled so well, it all works. Civil War and Doc Strange proved that this year. Great films.

The Netflix shows are dark and gritty, but they also have strong, intelligent writing. You can have dark and gritty without intelligent writing, and you get this;

Don't remind me !!!!! Aggggghhhh !!!!!

Grant Gustin is likeable. I agree.


But for every likeable character performance in the CW verse, there are 2 or 3 unlikable ones (mainly the female characters unfortunately based on how they are written and used to push the angsty melodrama).

There characters of Laurel, Felicity, Sara, Thea, Iris, Kendra, Oliver and so forth have really suffered through some terrible writing and characterization. They've reached depths of terrible no Marvel show has ever treaded into.

Lest we forget;

https://youtu.be/H_D8-tDaG28?t=161

Actually I kind of like Felicity and Oliver and the rest of the Arrow characters you mentioned - sure they've had ups and downs, but I consistently enjoy them.

As for Kendra, well.......... very much with you there. And I guess I don't know how terrible Marvel shows get (having not seen that much of them) although I can say that Agents of Shield has been a pure snoozefest for me.

 

[Flint Marko]

Marvel takes this one easily.

 

[InCali]

I probably like the DC shows a little bit better overall (I'm not counting Netflix because if I did, it would be no contest - all of the 4 Netflix shows I've seen are vastly superior to any other SH show on TV). DC shows are good fun for an hour. Sometimes I think they get a little TOO far out there, but overall I like them fine.

I also like Marvel's shows. Prolly Carter was my fav, but AoS is fine and I liked the recent Ghost Rider tie in. I like that there is a tie in to MCU that DC doesn't really have (which in this case might be a good thing). Marvel's TV seems to be a little more serious, but, I rather like the DC TV stuff a little more.


EDIT: I liked the recent show to show tie in that CW did recently. Oh yeah and I'm including Gotham which I think is (was) maybe the best of the lot.

 

[Ghost_Rider]

If Deathstroke in season 2 was unable to generate that, then it wouldn't be surprising if they don't. Like I have mentioned previously regarding ratings, the best episodes have not had the best ratings. This year has undoubtedly been better than last season, and the reviews back that up, yet the ratings come up short in comparison. Relying on them alone is flawed.

And relying on some fan opinions on the internet is just as flawed.

Hence why I said ratings is one of the significant aspects to be considered when determining the quality of a show like this. It's not the 'be all and end all' but it certainly does carry a lot of weight. It's a significant factor.

Arrow gradually bleeding out such a considerable number of viewers over the past seasons..... and now being unable to retain new viewership (even after a teamup that boosted ratings up to 3.55M) is a huge red flag that creatively they're in a funk, and audiences aren't buying what they are selling.

 

[Ghost_Rider]

And I guess I don't know how terrible Marvel shows get (having not seen that much of them) although I can say that Agents of Shield has been a pure snoozefest for me.

Shield did not have the best start. It suffered from that, and ultimately that will likely lead to it's cancellation this year.

It was too directionless in it's early episodes, and I don't think Marvel Studios had a solid TV plan at that point. They just wanted a Whedon drama in the MCU.

For it being Marvel Studio's first TV series, I'd say it accomplished it's objective and served it's course.

We're getting the Inhumans IMAX series launched out of SHIELD.

We're also inevitably getting some form of Ghost Rider on Netflix eventually.

I hope they end it this year and build shows that maintain the level of storytelling and intelligent writing we get on Netflix.

SHIELD has that now, but it certainly didn't in it's early days.

 

[Slade W]

And relying on some fan opinions on the internet is just as flawed.

Hence why I said ratings is one of the significant aspects to be considered when determining the quality of a show like this. It's not the 'be all and end all' but it certainly does carry a lot of weight. It's a significant factor.

Arrow gradually bleeding out such a considerable number of viewers over the past seasons..... and now being unable to retain new viewership (even after a teamup that boosted ratings up to 3.55M) is a huge red flag that creatively they're in a funk, and audiences aren't buying what they are selling.

If ratings are paramount in determining the quality of a season, then I do not see why season 3 is considered to be bad, as it did a good job in that regard. The reason that it is considered to be bad, of course, is because of the considerable number of fans airing their grievances online, in addition to poor reviews. That is the only possible way it could be considered a bad season then, as it performed well in terms of ratings. At this moment you will find very few people of the opinion that season 5 so far has been doing a lesser job than seasons 3 & 4. The majority of the response online has been positive, this year. I am sure you are aware of that. It has been much better than what the response was in the previous two seasons. I wouldn't say the 100th episode was the best episode to get people back on board, as it was an episode that was quite rushed and had to fit a lot in, even if it did have nice moments. It wasn't focused on Arrows main story. If Arrow maintaining its viewers in season 3 can be considered a poor season, and Arrow losing its viewers in season 2 can be considered its best season, then I do not see why season 5 can not be considered good due to its lesser ratings, if the response to it has been positive, if only so far. The only possible way that seasons 2 & 3 can be considered good and poor is by what the response was on the internet, as 3 did a better job holding on to viewers late on, yet I doubt you consider 3 better than 2.

 

[psylockolussus]

What's interesting about IMDB is the ratings for these shows on there line up almost exactly with the audience ratings on RT.

See for yourself.

It would take a lot of effort to manipulate IMDB at this stage of the game. You could make several multiple accounts and you likely wouldn't be able to change a percentage on there.

And Supergirl's score was consistent since the get-go, so it's not like someone actively altered things. The score is a reflection of the show's initial reception and current reception from polled viewers.

Audience ratings and IMDb scores could be easily manipulated. Anyone with an internet could give scores without even seeing the whole thing or a single episode.

 

[Mike Murdock]

It would take a lot of effort to manipulate IMDB at this stage of the game. You could make several multiple accounts and you likely wouldn't be able to change a percentage on there.

And Supergirl's score was consistent since the get-go, so it's not like someone actively altered things. The score is a reflection of the show's initial reception and current reception from polled viewers.

It seems based on what you're saying that it takes a lot for a rating to change with an improved show. I think the second season of Supergirl is vastly better than the first (which I found to be a likable show, but not much more than that).