Terminator: Salvation - The NEW new thread

[dark_b]

i thought TS was a half reboot?

 

[Solidus]

i thought TS was a half reboot?

Well since it was the guys that created T3 I kinda doubt it. It said it was sorta, but McG claimed that it was using T1 and T2 more so then T3. Which is understandable. But he did not even do that. To me TS did not keep the core feeling that the others had.

To me the main thing that bugged me most was the main plot. The whole thing was about Skynet searching for Kyle....so he could obliterate an enemy he does not even know much about yet.

Why would Skynet want to kill John when he's hardly a threat, how does Skynet even know about John to such a great extent? He's not even close to being the main threat in the Resistance. Even more mind boggling to me....how does Skynet know the relation between John and Kyle. Kyle grew up after the war....how would he know where to find him? Or what he looked like or his importance. All the records were destroyed in the war it claimed in T1 and T2, Skynet did not even know what Sarah looked like in the past and she was raised before the war. It just comes down to why would Skynet be looking for some one that he should have no idea who they are. Even Kyle does not know who he is until after T1 maybe not even then lol. Yet some how Skynet knows?

The main plot of TS was just a huge plot hole. T3 at least kept some consistences.

But as always, to those that enjoyed TS please do not think I'm saying you can't. To me these were just personal things I felt out of place in the film.

 

[LostSon88]

Its not a plothole for Skynet to know so much about John and Kyle and future events.

You forget, in this timeline, the events of T1, T2 and T3 have happened. One would assume (as did I) that Skynet while sifting through human databases stumbled upon the story of Sarah Connor and her time in the nuthouse...her rants about machines from the future, Skynet, John Connor.

This is a Skynet that knows about the past attempts on John Connor and are thus trying to recitify "past" mistakes by getting at the source...Kyle Reese.

Just as John learned about the future in the past 3 films...so has Skynet. I really don't see how anyone can overlook this.

 

[Solidus]

Its not a plothole for Skynet to know so much about John and Kyle and future events.

You forget, in this timeline, the events of T1, T2 and T3 have happened. One would assume (as did I) that Skynet while sifting through human databases stumbled upon the story of Sarah Connor and her time in the nuthouse...her rants about machines from the future, Skynet, John Connor.

This is a Skynet that knows about the past attempts on John Connor and are thus trying to recitify "past" mistakes by getting at the source...Kyle Reese.

Just as John learned about the future in the past 3 films...so has Skynet. I really don't see how anyone can overlook this.

That makes no sense. lol. First John learned a lot just when T1 was released, that was part of the plot. That John knew the future always, even if was just in T1 or T2 and we would have stopped. This is not a linear story telling, Terminator has a cyclical story. More like a circle, an continuation.

It claims that records were destroyed, TS does as McG put it accept T1 and T2 in some way, it has to. So in T1 it was said that most of the records were destroyed, Skynet knew nothing of Sarah, even what she looked like. He knew very little.

So if your saying that a new time line has changed all this, then it does completely screw up T1 and T2 which does not sit well with me. Because the whole point of these stories is they were cyclical in nature, it was a cycle. Now of course it could be altered but it should not change the fact that Skynet knew very little about anyone. If he would have why would he not just send back another Terminator in T1 now knowing so much about Sarah *if that is the case* then it would change T1 and T2 as well. To me T1 and T2 happened, but they hapend the way they did because how the future unfolded. The T-800 in T1 had to kill many Sarah Connor's because he did not know what Sarah looked like or much about her. That is why Skynet attacked in 1984 because that was the only info he had on her, and where to some what find her, other then that records were destroyed. Now if you are claiming that he knows about Kyle....which how would he still know what he looked like due to the fact that Kyle is growing up after the war *I doubt people are taking records anymore*.

So if now you claim Skynet knows everything, he would know much more about Sarah, and would have a tactical advantage and kill her when she was born since he now has her records?

So to me that would change all the events of T1 and T2....and by negating those, *the good ones* it just messes up a good story *which sadly was my point*

I'm not saying you can't think the way you do, but that is the difficult thing about the time traveling aspects of Terminator. But to me if you negate T1 and T2 the way that TS does, it alters TS again, and then TS currently would not be happening the way it did. If that makes any sense lol.

To me now, I still wish with Avatar tech, they would go back to the end of T2, start another T3 make Arnold look young. Because T2 left it open for interpretation....either you can change the future, or you can't. To me now in my older age, I say they should have said you can't change the future. Then have JD happen on 1997, and everything just continues the way it always would have. Destroying Cyberdine in T2 should have been a section of the cause in creating Skynet that we all know.

But that is my crazy mind.

To me if Skynet now does have all these records, it changes all of T1 and T2 technically because when he creates the TDE he has such a tactical advantage, he may kill everyone and alter the entire series again. I am fine with some of the alterations, but sometimes to me I think the time alterations that we apparently said T2 did has made it over whelming and just too much.

I really wish we could make a time machine and make T3 happen during 1997 and JD just occurs as it always would have, and T2 was just another step towards the inevitable future.

 

[Solidus]

I will post another post soon LostSon to explain my reasons more clearly, time travel gets icky. And I'm not saying you can't think the way you do with it, but to me it just negates T1 and T2 completely, and might as well just say the whole franchise does't exist.

 

[Alonsovich]

That makes no sense. lol. First John learned a lot just when T1 was released, that was part of the plot. That John knew the future always, even if was just in T1 or T2 and we would have stopped. This is not a linear story telling, Terminator has a cyclical story. More like a circle, an continuation.

It claims that records were destroyed, TS does as McG put it accept T1 and T2 in some way, it has to. So in T1 it was said that most of the records were destroyed, Skynet knew nothing of Sarah, even what she looked like. He knew very little.

So if your saying that a new time line has changed all this, then it does completely screw up T1 and T2 which does not sit well with me. Because the whole point of these stories is they were cyclical in nature, it was a cycle. Now of course it could be altered but it should not change the fact that Skynet knew very little about anyone. If he would have why would he not just send back another Terminator in T1 now knowing so much about Sarah *if that is the case* then it would change T1 and T2 as well. To me T1 and T2 happened, but they hapend the way they did because how the future unfolded. The T-800 in T1 had to kill many Sarah Connor's because he did not know what Sarah looked like or much about her. That is why Skynet attacked in 1984 because that was the only info he had on her, and where to some what find her, other then that records were destroyed. Now if you are claiming that he knows about Kyle....which how would he still know what he looked like due to the fact that Kyle is growing up after the war *I doubt people are taking records anymore*.

So if now you claim Skynet knows everything, he would know much more about Sarah, and would have a tactical advantage and kill her when she was born since he now has her records?

So to me that would change all the events of T1 and T2....and by negating those, *the good ones* it just messes up a good story *which sadly was my point*

I'm not saying you can't think the way you do, but that is the difficult thing about the time traveling aspects of Terminator. But to me if you negate T1 and T2 the way that TS does, it alters TS again, and then TS currently would not be happening the way it did. If that makes any sense lol.

To me now, I still wish with Avatar tech, they would go back to the end of T2, start another T3 make Arnold look young. Because T2 left it open for interpretation....either you can change the future, or you can't. To me now in my older age, I say they should have said you can't change the future. Then have JD happen on 1997, and everything just continues the way it always would have. Destroying Cyberdine in T2 should have been a section of the cause in creating Skynet that we all know.

But that is my crazy mind.

To me if Skynet now does have all these records, it changes all of T1 and T2 technically because when he creates the TDE he has such a tactical advantage, he may kill everyone and alter the entire series again. I am fine with some of the alterations, but sometimes to me I think the time alterations that we apparently said T2 did has made it over whelming and just too much.

I really wish we could make a time machine and make T3 happen during 1997 and JD just occurs as it always would have, and T2 was just another step towards the inevitable future.

The whole goddamn franchise makes no sense... it's a giant loop... the option that the Skynet of this future knows about Kyle is not impossible... it's just one more turn to a colossal loop in the form of an alternate timeline... the funny stuff is that the next time John sends Kyle back it could create another alternate timeline (yeah... with this eventually we could even get a reboot in Star Trek fashion...)

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

The whole goddamn franchise makes no sense... it's a giant loop... the option that the Skynet of this future knows about Kyle is not impossible... it's just one more turn to a colossal loop in the form of an alternate timeline... the funny stuff is that the next time John sends Kyle back it could create another alternate timeline (yeah... with this eventually we could even get a reboot in Star Trek fashion...)

But how could Skynet know about Kyle Reese? He grew up after the war so there are no records so no evidence to his existence, even the tapes in the police station would be useless as they dont suggest for a moment that Kyle is John Connor's father, Skynet has absolutely NO way of knowing that Kyle Reese is John Connor's father.

 

[Solidus]

Give me a moment guys I'm writing like a page article on this. I will go through T1 and T2 and T3 and T4, and show that T3 and T4 contradict T1 and T2 in themes and meaning.

And don't take any of this as attacks LostSon, its just discussion. And T1 and T2 made very very very good sense, they really did, that's why they are such loved movies. But T3 and T4 did not. That is the whole point. The franchise made sense up until T3.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

^Yeah, but I totally agree with you Solidus about T3 not doing as much damage to the mythos as TS.

 

[Alonsovich]

But how could Skynet know about Kyle Reese? He grew up after the war so there are no records so no evidence to his existence, even the tapes in the police station would be useless as they dont suggest for a moment that Kyle is John Connor's father, Skynet has absolutely NO way of knowing that Kyle Reese is John Connor's father.

Point taken... still... it would be as easy as saying that the Terminator's CPUs record that info and it was in the Cyberdyne records all along since the first T-800's CPU was found. Apparently writers create scripts without thinking in details as of today.

But as of impossible? It isn't.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Point taken... still... it would be as easy as saying that the Terminator's CPUs record that info and it was in the Cyberdyne records all along since the first T-800's CPU was found. Apparently writers create scripts without thinking in details as of today.

But as of impossible? It isn't.

The T-800's CPU was destroyed at the end of T2 though, the info on it wasnt downloaded, it was just used as a prototype for the actual development of the chip, the info on it was never used, it was held inside a fridge not a computer.

And again, there would be no records of Kyle being John's father, let alone actually existing! Not to mention, how could Skynet identify even if they knew who he was?

 

[Solidus]

The T-800's CPU was destroyed at the end of T2 though, the info on it wasnt downloaded, it was just used as a prototype for the actual development of the chip, the info on it was never used, it was held inside a fridge not a computer.

And again, there would be no records of Kyle being John's father, let alone actually existing! Not to mention, how could Skynet identify even if they knew who he was?

Agreed, and my post will be up soon, it may be a few pages long lol. I will say T3 is entertaining, but plot hole filled as well, not as much as TS but it does to me.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Agreed, and my post will be up soon, it may be a few pages long lol. I will say T3 is entertaining, but plot hole filled as well, not as much as TS but it does to me.

Yeah they both are filled with them, but for me, TS has more than T3.

 

[Alonsovich]

The T-800's CPU was destroyed at the end of T2 though, the info on it wasnt downloaded, it was just used as a prototype for the actual development of the chip, the info on it was never used, it was held inside a fridge not a computer.

And again, there would be no records of Kyle being John's father, let alone actually existing! Not to mention, how could Skynet identify even if they knew who he was?

Here we go again. This thing is such a gigantic loop that they could pull any explanation out of their asses ant it would make sense... and at the same time it would be a plot hole for others because it wouldn't match what XXXX did in minute 112 of the 2.5 DVD version of the Director's Cut of T2-3D... that's why I said that the whole goddamn franchise makes no sense. I prefer to enjoy these films as each an individual story. And that's where TS works very well. The whole time travel timeline crap makes these films a pain in the ass to watch, honestly... and yes, I mean also the first two. You guys forget that most people don't even care about that when they enter a theatre to see TS.

 

[dark_b]

The T-800's CPU was destroyed at the end of T2 though, the info on it wasnt downloaded, it was just used as a prototype for the actual development of the chip, the info on it was never used, it was held inside a fridge not a computer.

And again, there would be no records of Kyle being John's father, let alone actually existing! Not to mention, how could Skynet identify even if they knew who he was?

THIS


there is nooooooooo way that skynet would have an exact face scan from Kyle. noooooo way.

 

[Alonsovich]

THIS


there is nooooooooo way that skynet would have an exact face scan from Kyle. noooooo way.

O RLY?

I'm the writer for T5.

Skynet has captured Kyle Reese again, implanted him a chip that sends direct info to Skynet about the resistance without him knowing and without being a hybrid. Then John sends him back in time, that way they know who he was since 1984. THE END.

They can pull anything out of their asses, as I said.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Here we go again. This thing is such a gigantic loop that they could pull any explanation out of their asses ant it would make sense... and at the same time it would be a plot hole for others because it wouldn't match what XXXX did in minute 112 of the 2.5 DVD version of the Director's Cut of T2-3D... that's why I said that the whole goddamn franchise makes no sense. I prefer to enjoy these films as each an individual story. And that's where TS works very well. The whole time travel timeline crap makes these films a pain in the ass to watch, honestly... and yes, I mean also the first two. You guys forget that most people don't even care about that when they enter a theatre to see TS.

I have never seen T2-3D and didnt mention any Director's Cuts, I was talking about the original versions of the movies, which, IMO, have very little problems despite what you think. You say people werent thinking about this stuff in the theatre, then did the movie do so poorly? And whay has the DVD sales done the same, obviously people did think about it.

THIS


there is nooooooooo way that skynet would have an exact face scan from Kyle. noooooo way.

Thank-you Dark B, there is no way Skynet would have been able to indentify Kyle, so that is a big plot hole in TS no matter what you say Alonsovich.

 

[dark_b]

O RLY?

I'm the writer for T5.

Skynet has captured Kyle Reese again, implanted him a chip that sends direct info to Skynet about the resistance without him knowing and without being a hybrid. Then John sends him back in time, that way they know who he was since 1984. THE END.

They can pull anything out of their asses, as I said.

if skynet could do this they could kill already everyone .

IMO

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

O RLY?

I'm the writer for T5.

Skynet has captured Kyle Reese again, implanted him a chip that sends direct info to Skynet about the resistance without him knowing and without being a hybrid. Then John sends him back in time, that way they know who he was since 1984. THE END.

They can pull anything out of their asses, as I said.

I'm sure the resistance would know about him being captured, dogs would have barked their asses off at them and I'm sure Kyle would feel it. Not to mention how could a chip send info across time?

Add in the fact there isnt going to be a T5 and this makes little to no sense.

 

[Alonsovich]

I have never seen T2-3D and didnt mention any Director's Cuts, I was talking about the original versions of the movies, which, IMO, have very little problems despite what you think. You say people werent thinking about this stuff in the theatre, then did the movie do so poorly? And whay has the DVD sales done the same, obviously people did think about it.



Thank-you Dark B, there is no way Skynet would have been able to indentify Kyle, so that is a big plot hole in TS no matter what you say Alonsovich.

I never said it wasn't a plot hole. I just said it could be an alternate timeline. And yes, there are ways to identify Kyle... see post above this. That's why I said they could pull anything out of their asses. And the whole franchise is a big loop... and in certain ways... a big plot hole.

 

[Solidus]

PART 1



First off this is how I believe most viewed the originals and I can't speak for everyone but to me Cameron made many things clear in his movies.


First I will start with the themes of the film, and explain why the themes are in place. Then as the movies progress you see that it contradicts itself. Which is why most now hate the Terminator franchise. BO and critics sure have shown this.






The Terminator

T1's theme was the fact that you cannot change your fate, that you have one fate, and the harder a man tries to run from his destiny he actually finds it.




This theme is presented in the film in a few ways. At the end you learn that Kyle Reese was always John's father. People that say otherwise it makes no sense. If you have a different father, your not the same person, its genetics and logic. John Connor that we know clearly knows that his father has been and always will be Kyle Reese, if not, John that we know does not exist, nor does the entire Terminator franchise.


John clearly knows that Reese is his father, he gave a picture to Kyle because he knew in time this man would love his mother, and he pushes that because he wants fate to go that way or John never exists. With T1 and T2 combined *or just the deleted scenes of T1. It shows that kind of in a godly way, through fate or what ever, John and Skynet have created themselves. John sends back his own father, and unknowingly Skynet sends back a T-800 that gets destroyed and off of its broken chip that Skynet is created and Dyson creates Skynet. A interesting loop. But showing that if any of this changes....Skynet cannot exist, nor can John, they have a symbiotic relationship unknowingly. One needs the other to survive. Skynet would never have been created if he never sent a Terminator to kill Sarah, nor John would never have existed if he did not send back his father to protect his mother.


The themes in T1 show that there is no alternate way of things, that Kyle being the father was always how it went, and same with Skynet being created. It always went about this way, and it was always destiny. You can't have an alternate time line with a different father for John....because that would not be John that we know, its just logic. Then he would never have any reason to send back Kyle Reese, as his father to fall in love. It just falls apart. So T1 theme talks about how its fate, and that was the big reveal for Sarah at the end,.

 

[Alonsovich]

I have never seen T2-3D and didnt mention any Director's Cuts, I was talking about the original versions of the movies, which, IMO, have very little problems despite what you think. You say people werent thinking about this stuff in the theatre, then did the movie do so poorly? And whay has the DVD sales done the same, obviously people did think about it.

Yeah... movies do poorly because they're bad... Transformers must be a masterpiece then...

 

[Solidus]

PART II

Terminator 2: Judgment Day


T2's theme added more questions to the original theme, but really left it ambiguous and I think for a reason which I will explain later. T2 asks the question..... “can you change your fate?” That is one of the points of the story is them trying to change everything. But the fact of the matter is with T2 it never really shows if it changed anything or the original theme of T1 still remains. To me it still remains all based on the fact that Cameron took out the Future Coda ending.


T2 for sure asks can we change our fate.... “No fate” and as well they try to destroy Skynet, clearly Sarah has tried it before which put her in the mental hospital to begin with. So Sarah has been trying in the past and continues to try and change the future. Who wouldn't? But to me T2's ending in a few ways told me, they never changed anything, that everything they did always went about that way, and destiny was unfolding the way it always has and always will.


The ending had a subtle view to me that they did not change the future. Looking back, if one alters time, just like in Back to the Future, the person may cease to exist, fade away, and never be there. In T2, after the final chip is gone...the one in the T-800's head, Sarah and John are still shown there, sitting there. If they had truly altered time, like McFly they would have disappeared, and not been in a steel factory, because if they stopped Skynet from ever doing JD, then John would not exist nor the TDE, so all together the universe would in a sense collapse on itself.


In the final scene, they are still sitting there, and clearly all the memories of T1 and T2 are still with Sarah in her monologue at the end. So she would technically not remember anything if Skynet was destroyed, because he would never exist then and never come through time, therefore Sarah would be like “What's a Skynet?”


Additionally the commentary of the Future Coda sequence of Cameron was interesting, and him taking it out to me was a subtle way of saying: “It would contradict it self if they actually killed Skynet” John would never exist. Those who do not know of the Future Coda ending it is where it shows the future and Old Sarah is in a perfect 2029 and John is now a senator. But Cameron for many reasons cut it, and one of them it would have made no sense. John can't exist with out Skynet, nor would they remember any of it.


So to me it was cut because I think deep down Cameron knew it would contradict his whole story, so he changed it, and made it just an unknown future. Where one could argue it possibly, but I think slightly Cameron realized it would not make sense.

 

[Solidus]

PART III

Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines


Okay this is where it starts to fall for me. The theme of this seems to be....they changed the future.....but at the same exact time they did not. They altered some of it, but not all of it. They altered the date, but JD still happens. To me that just in itself is a contradictory statement, and right away told me that the series was in trouble with out JC. Or writers that had actually watched Terminator.




The T-850 says many things that indicates the future has changed, yet it really has not. He claims that they only postponed Judgment Day, but Judgment Day is inevitable. Which to me, that statement from the T-850 make me scratch my head. He said that you really can't change the future....but they did? That right there is where Terminator started to fall. It has a contradictory statement, and then they flung into alternate time lines and so forth, which to me the originals said nothing about, nor hinted about. Which just spats in the face of the first two films, in their themes and ways of going about it.


As well now apparently the end of the war, is now at 2032, and not 2029. So that in itself changes a lot of things, that are never even really explained. Okay that's cool that maybe there was an alteration, though it contradicts itself, Yet they never really went into what changed besides the fact that dates are now different.


With Mike Kripkee talk, it tried to also further say....no matter what John and Kate would have always been together, if T2 had changed anything or not. Which yet again....contradicts itself. That is saying that no matter what they could not change their fate together.....but they did? I just found the alternate time line saying they changed things.....but not really is just stupid. And makes no sense.


So in the end T3 really contradicted itself in themes and ideas. They should of went with you can't change your fate...which they did to a point. But stopped there. T3 should have taken place in August 1997. And JD just happens as it always did.

 

[Solidus]

PART IV

Terminator Salvation


Theme: Was there one? To me the theme seemed to be more about redemption of a character that really has no importance in the series other then giving John a heart. Kinda like the Wizard of Oz eh? Okay bad joke. To me there was real no talk of theme. The old themes of the past three seemed moot, and never talked about. It says John is unsure of this future, and that it is a different time line, but as we explored earlier....that makes no sense. Unless you just force yourself to say okay. But to me it does spat on T1 and T2.


In the film the whole plot is about Skynet trying to kill Kyle Reese and John Connor at the same time. Yet this is just stupid. First if Skynet actually knows that Kyle is John's father....why go through this stupid huge trap? JUST KILL KYLE YOU DOPE! Apparently you were smarter back in T1 and T2 cuz you were trying retroactive abortion. Yet here you are some kind of idiot CPU that wants to play games with everyone. Because if Skynet would have just killed Kyle...what happens? No more John!!! yay that was easy. But no Skynet decided that would be too easy. I guess he likes a challenge?


In T1 Kyle said that he grew up after the war, possibly born after too, if you think about it, the original time line had 97 as the JD date. In T1 he is still pretty young so its pretty obvious that he was born after the war. So why would there be any records of him? Even in TS it seems that he is 15 years old. So JD in this movie takes place in 2003.....yet that would still mean he was born on or after JD. So yet again....why would there be pictures or knowledge of him after the war? There would not be. Just like dark b said....why does he have full pictures of Kyle? Hell even Sarah did not. They could have explained this in some fashion but they did not even try that.


As well if Skynet has all this information now....you would think that he knows that he created himself. So Skynet may not want to kill John anymore if he now has all this new knowledge. Which again would contradict the series as a whole.


So what I'm saying is that after T3 it seemed that people just trying to make alternate time lines just ended up missing the point of Terminator to begin with. Is that you have a fate, and you can't change it. T3 contradicts itself and says you can change the future....but not really. If you think about that....it makes no sense. And Cameron realized this cuz he's smart lol. T2 even though it asked the question can you change the future....the answer is no. So if you can't, then why alter anything? Why alter dates and locations? It just makes for plot holes and more possibility of actually changing the entire future.


Even a little thing can change the future. So why risk this? Yet they claim just by making the movies themselves that you can't change the future, yet they try to change everything else. And that would change everything anyways, yet again making the entire series pointless.


But T1 and T2 held the ground and did not do this. They made sense. And a T3 that would have just continued the story and unfolded the future unchanged would have been as exciting, and cool, learning how everything went down.


Hopefully a producer reads this lol.