Homecoming The Amazing Spider-Man 3 General Discussion - - - - - Part 14

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

No matter what happens... I'm pretty sure Webb is gone regardless.

 

[OriginalMiles]

But Harry didn’t see Peter’s refusal to help as a good thing. WE, the audience understand Peter’s decision because we’re watching it from the hero’s perspective. But from Harry’s perspective, by flat out refusing to help, Peter is signing Harry’s death note. Peter isn’t even giving Harry a fighting chance. In Harry’s mind, Peter is making Harry’s decision for him, without even attempting to come up with a plan that could work. From Harry’s perspective the situation is:

Harry: I’m dying. The ONLY chance I have is using some of your blood. Help me, please?
Spidey: No. It’s dangerous.
Harry: Isn’t that my choice? I’m already dying…PLEASE!
Spidey: Nope.
Harry: We could run tests to make sure –
Spidey: No.
Harry: I thought you’re supposed to help people?
Spidey: That’s true. I do help people, but I’m not gonna help you.
Harry: Oh my god, I’m gonna die…
Spidey: HA! Sucker!

The ONE person that could possibly help him absolutely refuses to. From Harry’s perspective, that really is a completely dick move. Then to find out the stranger who completely destroyed your own chance to survive (and therefore made the decision to let you die miserably) is your best friend…yeah, NO ONE would take that well at all.

This, of course, completely ignores the back-and-forth love/hate mind**** the goblin serum has on Harry and Norman in the comics.

Yes.

PERFECTLY. Seriously, I don't see what's so hard to understand about Harry going crazy/getting angry about everything. You have summed it up perfectly. If people can't understand after this, then I doubt they actually saw the movie.

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

Here's my problem with Harry.

At the end, he's organizing a team. Why? It's clear he would know Gwen died and possibly Spider-Man hasn't been around. Why are you organizing a team to fight someone who is already defeated? I mean, why? It makes no sense and what's worse is all it did was cause Peter to return as Spidey. Like dude, he gave up. He's broken. Why go after him? To kill him? In death, he will only find peace.

 

[OriginalMiles]

Here's my problem with Harry.

At the end, he's organizing a team. Why? It's clear he would know Gwen died and possibly Spider-Man hasn't been around. Why are you organizing a team to fight someone who is already defeated? I mean, why? It makes no sense and what's worse is all it did was cause Peter to return as Spidey. Like dude, he gave up. He's broken. Why go after him? To kill him? In death, he will only find peace.

Well, we don't know if it's for Spidey. The whole point of the scene was to be ambiguous... to tease.

Y'know, for that Sinister Six movie? People would then see that to find out why the heck they're putting the team together.

 

[Spider-Who?]

Disagreed. That is not how their conversation went. Spider-Man told Harry he wanted to help him but he couldn't give him his blood because instead of killing him it could turn him into something worse. Harry did not ask for any tests on Spider-Man's blood. He just try and bribe him with money instead.

Spidey also didn’t say “HA! Sucker!” so clearly, I was exaggerating the discussion to illustrate Harry’s perspective. My point remains valid as Spidey would have said no to even testing his blood first.

That make no difference. Harry already become crazy Goblin when he found out Peter was Spider-Man.

I’m…not sure what your point is here. Harry's desperation after being betrayed by BOTH the “hero” Spider-Man and his own company caused him to team up with Electro and get Spidey’s blood by force. The mental side-effects of his disease also played a part in his extreme behavior. And remember, Harry also blames Spider-Man for what the serum does to him – in his mind, Spider-Man forced Harry to use the serum when Spidey refused to help, so Harry’s impending death, the attack on Oscorp AND the failed serum's insanity/disfigurement is all Spider-Man’s fault. Add the insanity caused by the serum, and Harry’s hatred is magnified 10-fold when he learns Peter is Spider-Man.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Spidey also didn’t say “HA! Sucker!” so clearly, I was exaggerating the discussion to illustrate Harry’s perspective. My point remains valid as Spidey would have said no to even testing his blood first.

Disagreed. Your point not valid because he never ask for blood to be tested so it is not something Harry held against him because he never ask that, it is also made up part of the discussion you wrote as well.

I’m…not sure what your point is here. Harry's desperation after being betrayed by BOTH the “hero” Spider-Man and his own company caused him to team up with Electro and get Spidey’s blood by force. The mental side-effects of his disease also played a part in his extreme behavior. And remember, Harry also blames Spider-Man for what the serum does to him – in his mind, Spider-Man forced Harry to use the serum when Spidey refused to help, so Harry’s impending death, the attack on Oscorp AND the failed serum's insanity/disfigurement is all Spider-Man’s fault. Add the insanity caused by the serum, and Harry’s hatred is magnified 10-fold when he learns Peter is Spider-Man.

Point is Harry knowing it was Peter was just after circumstance because he was already a crazy Evil Ed Goblin. Harry did not need serum to act crazy. He already crazy and evil since he bust out a super villain from prison, enjoy watching him kill people, and then attack Oscorp and take serum for himself. Harry already crazy evil guy before he become Goblin. He nothing like Harry from comic books.

Harry already was warned that Spider-Man blood could turn him into something worse. So if he was ok with that then he has no reason to be mad at Spider-Man because he chose to take a serum that make him look like meth using troll doll lol. This is why his motive is stupid and fans not like it. It makes no sense.

 

[Spider-Who?]

I....I don't think you're fully comprehending the posts that you're responding to.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

I do. I am just not agreeing with your exaggerations explanations of Harry bad motives.

 

[Spider2099]

Well, we don't know if it's for Spidey. The whole point of the scene was to be ambiguous... to tease.

Y'know, for that Sinister Six movie? People would then see that to find out why the heck they're putting the team together.

Even so, why does Harry want to form a team then in the first place? I know it was just a tease but still... his motivation is just so ambiguous. Why is he a supervillain all of a sudden? It's just bad writing.

 

[Spider2099]

No matter what happens... I'm pretty sure Webb is gone regardless.

From an article on comic book movie, this is what Amy Pascal said in one of the leaked emails:

"We hired drew Goddard to write and direct a sinister six movie...Now it's a Spiderman movie...I love drew...I would not have hired him to direct the next spuserman movie after the Marc Webb experience."

Hmm.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

From an article on comic book movie, this is what Amy Pascal said in one of the leaked emails:

"We hired drew Goddard to write and direct a sinister six movie...Now it's a Spiderman movie...I love drew...I would not have hired him to direct the next spuserman movie after the Marc Webb experience."

Hmm.

Judging by that Webb is gone no matter what, if Goddard is directing Spidey 3 that's a step in the right direction in my eyes as Webb was part of the problem.

 

[degraves93]

Judging by that Webb is gone no matter what, if Goddard is directing Spidey 3 that's a step in the right direction in my eyes as Webb was part of the problem.

I would predict that if the deal does go through, Goddard is the one directing a solo Spidey film.

 

[Spider2099]

Judging by that Webb is gone no matter what, if Goddard is directing Spidey 3 that's a step in the right direction in my eyes as Webb was part of the problem.

Yes, I agree. I think Webb did a fine job with TASM1 and did the best he could with the script, but he isn't the right person to put in charge of a massive superhero franchise. If Goddard is indeed directing the next film then Sony needs to let him do his thing and not get too involved in the production.

 

[OriginalMiles]

Even so, why does Harry want to form a team then in the first place? I know it was just a tease but still... his motivation is just so ambiguous. Why is he a supervillain all of a sudden? It's just bad writing.

That's something Sony wanted you to find out in Sinister Six, duh.

 

[Spider2099]

That's something Sony wanted you to find out in Sinister Six, duh.

Lol. Sony likes throwing things at the wall just to see what sticks.

 

[degraves93]

I don't think Max and Harry's motivations were unclear at all. They thought they had someone they could depend on for their needs (Max wanted a friend, Harry wanted a cure), and Spider-Man let both of them down, leading to their bitterness and hatred. They were both emotionally unstable, lonely individuals who wanted to take Spidey down for "dumping" them. Could it have used more development? Of course. Was the motivation unclear? Not to me.

 

[Spider2099]

I mean the motivation is there and technically defined but it's still such a long stretch. I never bought it.

 

[degraves93]

I mean the motivation is there and technically defined but it's still such a long stretch. I never bought it.

The problem wasn't too many villains this time out, it was too many subplots.

 

[Spider2099]

The problem wasn't too many villains this time out, it was too many subplots.

Yeah, exactly. You can do multiple villains (i.e. The Dark Knight) but there needs to be a focus or a main storyline. This movie was just a jumbled mess of multiple subplots strung together.

 

[Art Freak]

The problem wasn't too many villains this time out, it was too many subplots.

I'd say the main problem was studio interference and lack of a concise tone and objective with their IP. First they wanted to emulate THE DARK KNIGHT then they wanted to world-build a la THE AVENGERS and the MCU. It's all already been discussed ad nauseum but there are some rose-colored glasses around here when it comes to TASM 2.

 

[degraves93]

Yeah, exactly. You can do multiple villains (i.e. The Dark Knight) but there needs to be a focus or a main storyline. This movie was just a jumbled mess of multiple subplots strung together.

If the parents storyline was solved in the first movie or just not included altogether, we wouldn't have had Electro subdued in Times Square and then absent for a huge stretch of the film. We would have had more time spent on Peter and Harry's friendship rather than a rushed conflict.

 

[Nardz937]

Both ASM movies felt like 2 hour long trailers for the next one. Especially ASM 2.

 

[W/ Great Power]

Well I think it would have worked out better if they had waited until ASM 3 to really explore Peter and Harry's friendship. They could have just briefly introduced Harry in ASM 2 honestly. But Harry DID have a reason for wanting to hurt Peter. Spider Man took away his hope of living when he refused to give Harry his blood. Once Harry turned into Goblin and found out that Peter was Spider Man, he wanted to hurt Peter and take away something he loved which was Gwen. Plus the Goblin formula twisted his mind to the point where he hated spider man/ peter for refusing to help him.

I get what you're saying, but I can't really agree. I'm not saying it makes sense that he wants to hurt Peter objectively, but for the character I thought it made perfect sense. ShadowBoxer summed it up pretty well up above. No matter if it would have worked or not, he felt betrayed. Peter was his friend and still refused to help him while he was at his most desperate and dying. By the time he's transformed into the Goblin, I think the last thing on his mind was, "Oh, Peter was just trying to help me after all." He still felt betrayed and was getting revenge on everyone, first Oscorp and then Peter.

I dunno. I bought it at least.

The whole argument of him being out of his mind disregards one element of his disease: "it comes and goes."

Was Harry so out of his mind, that even after he had killed Gwen and got his revenge from Peter ("You took away my hope...now I'm going to take away yours!"), after the dust had settled and he was sitting with Fiers at the end of the film, that he's now going to form an entire group of vigilantes dedicated to killing him? Really? That shouldn't strike as a weak basis of wanting to kill someone to only a minority of fans.

Also, he was just so out of his mind that he couldn't put two and two together and realize that his best friend was trying to save his life, yet he learned, in a matter of minutes, how to ride his glider and make his way to the power plant?

Even when I went to see TASM2 with my cousin, my aunt (a very average movie goer) specifically pointed this out. I've also read this complaint on a countless number of posts, reviews, and websites. That should be a major concern, in my opinion. That shows that either a movie isn't doing a good job of explaining something, or perhaps it's far too elaborate for some people to understand. In this case, I think it's the former.

But Harry didn’t see Peter’s refusal to help as a good thing. WE, the audience understand Peter’s decision because we’re watching it from the hero’s perspective. But from Harry’s perspective, by flat out refusing to help, Peter is signing Harry’s death note. Peter isn’t even giving Harry a fighting chance. In Harry’s mind, Peter is making Harry’s decision for him, without even attempting to come up with a plan that could work. From Harry’s perspective the situation is:

Harry: I’m dying. The ONLY chance I have is using some of your blood. Help me, please?
Spidey: No. It’s dangerous.
Harry: Isn’t that my choice? I’m already dying…PLEASE!
Spidey: Nope.
Harry: We could run tests to make sure –
Spidey: No.
Harry: I thought you’re supposed to help people?
Spidey: That’s true. I do help people, but I’m not gonna help you.
Harry: Oh my god, I’m gonna die…
Spidey: HA! Sucker!

The ONE person that could possibly help him absolutely refuses to. From Harry’s perspective, that really is a completely dick move. Then to find out the stranger who completely destroyed your own chance to survive (and therefore made the decision to let you die miserably) is your best friend…yeah, NO ONE would take that well at all.

This, of course, completely ignores the back-and-forth love/hate mind**** the goblin serum has on Harry and Norman in the comics.

Norman points out to Harry that he had so much "potential" in the beginning of the film. That causes the audience to assume that Harry is probably an intelligent individual who has done little to benefit from his intelligence, or made the wrong choices in his life altogether. Given that, he seemed capable enough to understand that his best friend, supposedly a genius at science (I would probably take his advice, no?) is warning him of the possible drawbacks of attaining Spidey's blood. Additionally, as I said "two and two together" above, he didn't realize he had more time to live, considering his own father seemed to live a pretty decent length of time?

But no, he was so devastated by the fact that his best friend was actually a superhero that was trying to save his life, that he not only killed the love of that friend's life, but he's now going to form a team to kill him, too.

If I'm trying to look at it from Harry's perspective, it really isn't that difficult to grasp - especially if you're observing the situation prior to his transformation to Goblin. There wasn't anything that justified him taking such abrupt steps and completely disregarding the opinion of the guy we're supposed to believe is all he had, and has been his best bud from the time they were kids.

If you try to analyze Harry rationally, the only conclusion you arrive at is that the character was just dumb from the start.

 

[Ultron-5]

Allow me to break the ice. I'm beginning to doubt Marvel will get the rights back. A cold thought like that really sends a chill down the spine, doesn't it.

 

[Spidey_62]

Allow me to break the ice. I'm beginning to doubt Marvel will get the rights back. A cold thought like that really sends a chill down the spine, doesn't it.

By now, that's how I'm feeling as well. I'd be happy to be wrong, though.