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Comics The Anti-USM Thread

Dark Spidey

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Anyone else unhappy with this book to the point of dropping it? I know I am.

As a long time USM fan (I started collecting from the very first issue many years ago) I feel i've become as alienated from the characters I once knew and loved, as much as I can stand. My problems with this title have been building for a year or so now. If not longer.

In my opinion: Everything up to issue #50 of USM is pure classic (Yes, even the Geldoff arc). After that the stories were pretty hit and miss. While the quality of Bagley's superior artwork seemed to begin to deteriorate more and more with every other passing arc. This might have had something to do with him losing Art Thibert as Inker and the various new Colourists. But most likely i'd put it down to burn out through a desperate effort to break Stan and Jack's record.

But anyway. I thought the second part of "Cats and Kings" was okay (though not as strong as the first part).

Although I wasn't a big fan of the artwork in the "Ultimate Six" mini-series, I thought story-wise the arc was probably the best way to go in regards to doing an Ultimate Universe Sinister Six story. And thought it worked well.

I thought that "Hollywood" was fun. A great showcase for Ultimate Ock. Liked the development of Gwen's story. Though she came to terms with the whole thing way too quickly for my liking.

That "Carnage" was a horrible, horrible mistake. But could see where Bendis was coming from with Gwen and the whole death being at it's most powerful when premature and unexpected thing. Though considering it now it could also be seen as an easy way out for not knowing what to do with the Gwen character after her discovering Peter's secret.

I thought the stories making up the "Superstars" arc were much needed light relief after the trauma of the previous arc. Though overall failed to deal with emotional ramifacations of Gwen's death effectively.

I really liked "Hobgoblin". Pretty much can't find any fault with that one.

I liked the continuation of The Kingpin's story in "Warriors". Although that arc was just a little too long for me. However the upcoming related "Knights" arc may make this a more satisfying read.

I think it was the first "Annual" where I really began to lose my faith in this series. Mark Brooks fantastic artwork aside. It's one thing for Peter to break up with MJ because he loves her and doesn't want to put her in anymore danger through being Spider-man. But it's quite another thing to have him start dating Kitty Pryde based on the rationale that she can't be hurt! Not only is this logic kind of flawed as she's part the X-Men. A team of mutants who regularly place themselves in dangerous situations. But it's just completely and uncharacteristically insensitive towards MJ! Sure she might no longer come to any physical harm while being seperated from Peter. But what about emotionally? Not only has she got to deal with him breaking up with her, now he's already dating someone else! Sure the Peter/Kitty thing might have sounded like a cool idea to some, and while it may be all over now. It was this uncharacteristic insensitivety of Peter that rocked my loyalty to this book.

"Silver Sable". Though I thought this arc was entertaining in parts. The continuing thread of the Peter/Kitty relationship spoilt it for me. I think it would have been so much better to have just had a single, love sick Peter. Struggling to continue with his activities as Spider-man with his heart aching for Mary Jane. It also would have made their eventual reunion much more rewarding. As it is Peter will now come off as looking like even more of a jerk. This time inevitably hurting Kitty.

To me the "Deadpool" arc felt like the series was just killing time up to the landmark 100 issues point. A completely throw-away story in my opinion. In fact I feel an opportunity to give this story some much needed relevance was sorely missed. Upon seeing first hand that an X-Man's life is a far from safe one. Peter should have broken up with Kitty at the end of this arc, basing his decision using the same kind of logic he applied to his relationship with MJ! That he couldn't stand to see her get hurt. Or perhaps would Bendis reason, that even if Kitty did get hurt on one of her missions, it'd be okay. Because atleast it wouldn't be Peter's fault and therfore being freed of any kind of guilt Peter can live with that!! You see? This relationship just doesn't work. Except to only damage the integrity of our hero.

The "Morbius" two-parter again, just felt like filler to me. Another missed opportunity. A Morbius origin story could easily been fleshed out to a nice four-part arc with some depth.

I liked the second "Annual" alot. More nice art from Brooks. And the development of the Kingpin story puts everything in place for the "Knights" arc and makes it something to look forward to.

Then there's the "Clone Saga". How very typical that it would be this story that would polarise fans opinions so much. While I know that there's still an epilogue issue to this arc, like there was with the "Venom" and "Carnage" arcs. I feel that no matter what transpires in this issue, the damage to USM will already have been done and therefore won't make much difference to my following criticisms.

Okay, i'll start with what I did like about the "Clone Saga". MJ's transformation (and subsequent reversal) was just a waste of time. But I liked Ultimate Scorpion. I don't mind him being a clone of Peter. Gives the character some meaning. Mac Gargan never had much depth, in my opinion, and after the introduction of Eddie Brock and Venom as the new anti-spider-man in the 616, he became pretty obsolete anyway). I like the idea that Jessica Drew is also a female clone of Peter (and look forward to her inclusion into Jeph Loeb's The Ultimates). It makes her an all the more interesting characater to watch. No problem there either. I'm also pleased to see that MJ and Peter are getting back together again. Nice use of the Fantastic Four. The emotional reunion between Peter and his Father (although I suspected he was a clone all along and wouldn't make it out of the arc alive anyway). And the return of the ever evil Doctor Octopus. As not only the Masterplanner behind the whole thing. But also we're reminded of his unquestionable intellect. Something of which after his first two arcs, however great, I felt needed addressing. That this guy is a genius.

Now here's what I didn't like: The return of Gwen. I don't know what Bendis was thinking here. He should have just left her be. First she's killed off by Carnage. Now she comes back (as a clone!) and she is Carnage!? To me this was just another kick in the teeth for a Gwen fan. At best; she'll die again in the next issue like Richard Parker's clone did and we can begin to forget the whole sorry ordeal. At worst; Bendis will keep the clone around. Either way it's all bad.

Aunt May finding out Peter is Spider-man. I think this was poorly done. It seems that in the Ultimate Universe near enough everyone seems to get to know Peter's secret identity, where as 616 Spidey more or less was able to maintain his secret for years. And while could I tolerate MJ, Gwen and most of Ultimate Spidey's villains knowing it. As long as Aunt May wasn't in-the-know, there was still some reason for Peter to wear the mask. To protect her from his secret. Now what? At best; Bendis will have her develop some kind of amnesia after her heart attack and she'll forget Peter's secret. Therefore making the whole reveal meaningless, pointless and a waste of time in the first place. At worst; She'll wake up remembering that Peter is Spider-man and that will be the new status-quo. Something we already have in the regular Marvel Universe. And one less positive thing distinguishing the two versions of our hero. Again, either way it's all bad.

Lastly, the revelation of Doc Ock's new aspect to his powers. What rubbish. This was completely unnecessary! After the melting of his old tentacles there was more than one way he could aquire new ones. For example, he could have made it part of his deal with the CIA/FBI that as well as creating the clones for them, he also be allowed to work on a new set of tentacles. I don't find this implausible, not if we're already buying into the fact that the American Government would make a deal with him in the first place. There was just no need to turn him into Magneto-lite. No need what so ever.

And while there may be some who would say that as a long time USM fan I must have accepted the changes to Venom and more drastically Green Goblin in the Ultimate Universe. I would argue that what has happened to Ultimate Ock is a completley different thing altogther. Here's why: Not only did Ultimate Ock already have great spin on his powers; The unique pshycological connection/relationship he shared with his tentacles. Which has now been completley erased! More importantly, thoughout his many appearences is USM until now. Ultimate Doctor Octopus has shown no sign what so ever that he has any control over any metal other than that of his tentacles.

So my problem is not only that Bendis ruined probably the best Ultimate Spider-man villian by turning his unique powers into an inferior copy of someone elses. But that we are also supposed to believe that he had this ability the whole time. Merely chosing not to reveal or exploit it throughout his appearences in "Double Trouble", "Hollywood" and especially "Ultimate Six"!!!

I find this to be an inexcusable insult to all these years and bought issues, of continued loyalty towards this title. And so after the next arc, which I will get out of, again, loyalty to Bagley and his great body of work devoted to this book. I am dropping Ultimate Spider-man. Him leaving is the perfect jumping-off point from this book and I wouldn't be surprised to hear of other disappointed fans doing the same.

I'll always have the first #50 issues of USM to hold on to. Great stories. Great art. Great book. And i'm thankful for that much.

But now my hopes of a consistantly quality Spider-man series now rest purely with Jeph Loeb and J. Scott Campbell. After JMS and Joe Q use Loki's favor in their "One More Day" story to undo the events of both The Other and the Unmasking, first of course.
 
Nicely said :up:

The "Ockneto" thing is what finished me off. Bendis doesn't know when he's well off when he has a well written character. Yeah, I've dropped this book. And you're absolutely right, USM has been on a downward spiral since the Hollywood arc.
 
Ockneto??? WTF?!!

I dropped this book after the Hobgoblin arc. The Carnage arc annoyed the hell out of me and it was only a matter of time before I dropped it. I didn't like 'Hobgoblin', so it was gone. The title was very lackluster on the tail end of when I was reading it.

Damn shame it hasn't improved many. With my lack of buying 616, I could do with some kind of a Spidey title to read, but I guess USM isn't the one.
 
I dropped USM after #20 because I realised it was s-hit, heh.

I imagine it will be worth buying the first issue or two w/ the new artist as it will likely be a hot book w/ good re-sell value.
 
Anyone else unhappy with this book to point of dropping it? I know I am.
I have been of late, and the MJ-Goblin just about made me quit reading for good, only a reply to an email to Marvel made me stick with it.
In my opinion: Everything up to issue #50 of USM is pure classic (Yes, even the Geldoff arc). After that the stories were pretty hit and miss.
I am not exactly a "long term reader" like you said, having starting reading in the fall of 2005. But I went through the TPB's in order from the library, quickly fell in love with the earlier character-driven stories and started actually buying USM on a monthly basis. I noticed the the drop in quality after Carnage.
It's one thing for Peter to break up with MJ because he loves her and doesn't want to put her in anymore danger through being Spider-man. But it's quite another thing to have him start dating Kitty Pryde based on the rationale that she can't be hurt! Not only is this logic kind of flawed as she's part the X-Men. A team of mutants who regularly place themselves in dangerous situations. But it's just completely and uncharacteristically insensitive towards MJ! Sure she might no longer come to any physical harm while being seperated from Peter. But what about emotionally? Not only has she got to deal with him breaking up with her, now he's already dating someone else! Sure the Peter/Kitty thing might have sounded like a cool idea to some, and while it may be all over now. It was this uncharacteristic insensitivety of Peter that rocked my loyalty to this book.
:up: Bingo. Well said. I am in the same boat here, the Kitty relationship has been slowly killing my love for this book, and this "gimic" has alienated me more than anything else. Again, as I've said before: a key thing about good stories is you get drawn into the character's world and feel their feelings etc. Owing to being a girl, I am more likely to get emotionally drawn into MJ's feelings, and the Kitty thing felt like a smack across the face. Most guys don't get the emotional impact to a woman of being replaced/not valued. I don't need those kind of feelings being stirred up.
But thank goodness for USM 104. I have really been discouraged with this title of late, and now a glimmer of hope for a return to the strength of this book, realistic character driven stories.
 
I dropped it several months back...just began to get bored with it.

Im much more interested in what's happening in the classic Marvel Universe these days.
 
I was honestly starting to enjoy it again until Ock became Magneto-lite. I'm seriously thinking about dropping this one as well. If I get in a financial crunch, it'll probably be the first one to go. Then I don't think I'll have any Ultimate books left in my box aside from Ultimates 2, which has one issue remaining before Loeb and Joe Mad takeover...and I leave.
 
All goes to show you what happens when you remake or reimagine a classic character people have lived with, cherished, read, and loved for years.
 
All goes to show you what happens when you remake or reimagine a classic character people have lived with, cherished, read, and loved for years.

yeah...people dont realize it's supposed to be different and act shocked when it is, even though that's the whole point...people=stupid :o
 
Yeah, one more issue and I'm dropping this book.
 
Im glad many are considering giving the book one more chance. The clone saga, while i enjoyed it, was hated by people on this board but the book will get an overhaul in style at issue 111. Many should check out the book around then to see what they think.

Is this thread necessary? can't we all complain about usm in the usm thread?
 
Is this thread necessary? can't we all complain about usm in the usm thread?

Yes I found it necessary. If there can be a USM appreciation thread then there can be USM complaint thread.

Or think of it this way. As opposed to the other thread which is used to talk about USM in general. Being the anti-USM thread, it can be used to discuss anything related to the Spidey comics that aren't USM!!!
 
Nope, not necessary.

"The Ultimate Spider-Man Thread!!! ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page)
Ultimate Venom"

Thats the Usm thread. Its not an appreciation thread, in fact, right at this moment it's a bashing thread. You created a new thread for your opinion, and now others have 2 threads to bash the comic.

I understand many didnt like the clone saga but this thread is redundant since most of you voice your opinions in the regular thread anyway.

And just because its anti-usm doesnt mean its a thread for everything but usm. If you would like to talk about the unmasking, or sensational spider-man, for example, then post in their threads.
 
There's a thread, currently in this forum devoted to all things Sensational Spider-man. Yet there is also a thread created specifically on the subject of issue #34 of Sensational Spider-man.

You tell me. Was the creater of the second thread wrong to make it? If so, then this forum is seriously restricted.

If not, then how is what i've done any different!?
 
He should have posted in the sensational thread instead of making a new one.

Your thread isnt wrong, its just unnecessary, me eating a burger right now is also unnecessary, but im damn hungry :D. if the fellow hypsters want another thread to vent bendis anger in then its cool.

i suppose if i was pissed off at usm id appreciate this thread:)
 
He should have posted in the sensational thread instead of making a new one.

Your thread isnt wrong, its just unnecessary, me eating a burger right now is also unnecessary, but im damn hungry :D. if the fellow hypsters want another thread to vent bendis anger in then its cool.

i suppose if i was pissed off at usm id appreciate this thread:)

Very well this thread can be for those who are dropping USM too. :csad:

Now go eat that burger :up: :yay:
 
Wait. So a quick recap. I read somewhere that Spider-man was killed by Venom, or his headaches he got when Ultimate Venom was around him. So... if that is true, did they use a clone to replace him?
 
No...but can you show me your source lmfao. Thats funny.

Venoms situation hasnt been explained since his arc ended, but he was not involved in the clone saga. Peter is still alive and the clone saga involved a series of clones being made of him.
 
Owing to being a girl, I am more likely to get emotionally drawn into MJ's feelings, and the Kitty thing felt like a smack across the face. Most guys don't get the emotional impact to a woman of being replaced/not valued. I don't need those kind of feelings being stirred up.

Because most guys are never replaced by women or know what it's like to become second best, of course.

I'd say that it's nothing more than Bendis writing: Kitty starts dating Peter, that's it, and besides, he's sixteen. People act like he's committing an unrealistic crime on the level of 616 Peter being separated from Mary Jane and dating a new girl within a few weeks. I don't think Bendis is bound to make the reading easy for people just because they disfavor certain parts of regular life--I get drawn into stories in general, too, but at the end of the day I realize it's only a movie, story, or comic book.

I can understand avoiding a story involving rape, gratuitous murder, or other extreme topics, but feeling the shock from a comic book character realistically dating someone else just seems like a strange attachment.
 
It seems to me like every plot twist or event in USM that people don't like are situations where Bendis took a chance and really showed the flexibility of writing for the ultimate universe. I think the only real complaints I have about USM are Ultimate Carnage and Bendis not writing a Venom follow-up arc to the video game's story before Bagley resigned from the book. I was really enjoying how he drew Ultimate Venom. I always enjoyed the original Carnage because he seemed like the only villain that didn't break out of jail ten times just to unsuccessfully try to kill Spider-Man again or take over the world. Instead he was a symbiote meshed with a criminally insane psychopath that just had fun causing destruction. In USM Carnage was wasted to me.

Edit: Hey why does somebody always have to ask "Is this thread really neccesary?" in every thread? People want to vent about USM because they feel somewhat betrayed by it. Though I really enjoy the book, I did a little of it myself. You can't do it in the The Ultimate Spider-Man Thread because that thread's for people slurpin' the title.

Double Edit: I'm with Miguel on not getting too stirred up about Peter breaking up with MJ. I'm in high school and every relationship usually lasts about two or three weeks and ends with someone cheating. Remember, they're only 15.
 
I got into USM around the late 80's. I wanted to read some Spidey stories and what was happening with 616 wasn't cutting it for me. Seeing his relationship with Kitty, the Deadpool and Morbius arcs was OK, but nothing spectacular (no pun intended :p). I checked out a couple of issues of the Clone Saga and called it quits. It book really wasn't giving me what I wanted, so I shelled out for some Spidey Essentials. Judging from what I've read about USM since I dropped it, I got out a good time.

Additionally, I saw TMOB trash USM once and his opinion carries too much weight with me to ignore. The writing was on the wall at that point. :o :csad:
 
Edit: Hey why does somebody always have to ask "Is this thread really neccesary?" in every thread? People want to vent about USM because they feel somewhat betrayed by it. Though I really enjoy the book, I did a little of it myself. You can't do it in the The Ultimate Spider-Man Thread because that thread's for people slurpin' the title.

Right. And if people were to start this critique on usm in the main thread, the point and discussion of it'd just get lost. This thread isn't about bashing the title; it's merely raising a flag about general fan disapproval and disappointment with it.

I -love- it, too, but I honestly haven't been loving it for a while. I know it has quality story--I'd simply like to see that back.
 
yeah...people dont realize it's supposed to be different and act shocked when it is, even though that's the whole point...people=stupid :o

I don't necessarily think that is the case.
It's just that when you do re-imagine a classic character like Spider-man and drastically change things, like for e.g.- making Green Goblin an actual Goblin type monster,
it only serves to highlight how crap and inferior USM is compared to the original.
 
There's a thread, currently in this forum devoted to all things Sensational Spider-man. Yet there is also a thread created specifically on the subject of issue #34 of Sensational Spider-man.

You tell me. Was the creater of the second thread wrong to make it? If so, then this forum is seriously restricted.

If not, then how is what i've done any different!?


Don’t worry you are right.
This thread is necessary since USM sucks balls.
 

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