Comics The Anti-USM Thread

[Secret_Riddle]

Welcome to the board, anyway-



Basically what’s wrong about changing stuff to the extent that some of the characters in USM are altered, is that they cease to resemble the characters they were supposed to be based on.
Now, this would be fine if the villain for e.g., was called goblin hulk, but calling the character ‘Green Goblin’ is lame. In some areas of the book, though not all, USM is like the equivalent of what Kevin Smith envisioned for Superman 5. Basically it completely misses the point.
KS’s ‘Superman Lives’ script was not Superman, and USM is definitely not Spider-man.
It’s just some wimpy wannabe in a Spidey suit.



Don’t tell me not to bash it, I’ve been reading Spidey for 18 years.
Il bash it as much as I like.
It is s-hit.



Well your not exactly in the best position to judge what works in a SM comic or not then.
Any book you read for a year you are bound to develop a certain level of interest and care for the characters to which it inhabits. My guess is you have not stuck w/ any real Spidey comic for many months. I guess to a lot of new comers it can be a bit off putting to look at Amazing Spider-man and the cover says #537. USM is the easy jump on.
So you enjoy USM, I’m just telling you what’s wrong w/ it.
It’s a poor representation of Spider-man, since it aint the real webslinger.

Banshees a good friend of mine, outside of the hype, and yes hes just started reading comics within the last year. But hes read the first 200 issues of amazing. As well as issues 450 - to current. He read USM as he read ASM. He just personally likes USM better.

If your allowed to bash usm, then hes allowed to bash ASM.

There 2 very different comics and they both appeal to many.

I like both. Usm started out as an interesting what if? comic at first but its become a good contemporary version of the classic Spidey tale. It aims to be different in terms of stories and some characters, and thats what makes it a fresh and interesting read, especially with all the "life chaging" events constantly happening in the 616 universe in general.

 

[Venom 1988]

I'm talking about Doc Ock and Spids being born of the same "accident".

About May being the one who was "really" responsible for Ben's death.

You never read Vol 2 from the start?

Lucky you.

Thats not ASM Vol 2, thats Spider-Man: Chapter One, which yes was crap and later it was later deemed non-canon. ASM Vol 2 continues off where Vol 1 ended.

 

[Won '08]

Thats not ASM Vol 2, thats Spider-Man: Chapter One, which yes was crap and later it was later deemed non-canon. ASM Vol 2 continues off where Vol 1 ended.

Incorrect. Chapter One Retold the Story, Vol 2 Continues off of it's history. I'm holding All 5 versions of VOL2 #1 and they all state the same deal.

He was in an explosion, near death, a spider bit him, he healed, became spidey etc etc.

Go check it out dude. Vol 2 started with the idea that Chapter one was Canon.

 

[Venom 1988]

Incorrect. Chapter One Retold the Story, Vol 2 Continues off of it's history. I'm holding All 5 versions of VOL2 #1 and they all state the same deal.

He was in an explosion, near death, a spider bit him, he healed, became spidey etc etc.

Go check it out dude. Vol 2 started with the idea that Chapter one was Canon.

Eh ok whatever, it started off with the idea that it was canon. Most of the stories in Vol 2, from what I remember, didnt mention anything from Chapter One, except issue one as you say. But hey, whatever, you seem to know more about it than I do.

Oh well, regardless, we can all agree that Chapter One was crap.

 

[Shifty]

Lastly, the revelation of Doc Ock's new aspect to his powers. What rubbish. This was completely unnecessary! After the melting of his old tentacles there was more than one way he could aquire new ones. For example, he could have made it part of his deal with the CIA/FBI that as well as creating the clones for them, he also be allowed to work on a new set of tentacles. I don't find this implausible, not if we're already buying into the fact that the American Government would make a deal with him in the first place. There was just no need to turn him into Magneto-lite. No need what so ever.

And while there may be some who would say that as a long time USM fan I must have accepted the changes to Venom and more drastically Green Goblin in the Ultimate Universe. I would argue that what has happened to Ultimate Ock is a completley different thing altogther. Here's why: Not only did Ultimate Ock already have great spin on his powers; The unique pshycological connection/relationship he shared with his tentacles. Which has now been completley erased! More importantly, thoughout his many appearences is USM until now. Ultimate Doctor Octopus has shown no sign what so ever that he has any control over any metal other than that of his tentacles.

So my problem is not only that Bendis ruined probably the best Ultimate Spider-man villian by turning his unique powers into an inferior copy of someone elses. But that we are also supposed to believe that he had this ability the whole time. Merely chosing not to reveal or exploit it throughout his appearences in "Double Trouble", "Hollywood" and especially "Ultimate Six"!!!

Which can be somewhat fixed with the "Oz Cure" that has been also offered to Peter.

 

[Dangerous]

Banshees a good friend of mine, outside of the hype, and yes hes just started reading comics within the last year. But hes read the first 200 issues of amazing. As well as issues 450 - to current. He read USM as he read ASM. He just personally likes USM better.

That may be the case that he has ‘read’ 200 issues of ASM and ASM #450-present, but it’s not quite the same thing as reading the issues as they come out over a sustained period of time for more than a decade. Plus having re-read / memorized the rough content of many issues numerous times.
You don’t get the same level of understanding of the characters, through amongst other things, thinking about the significance of their development in between each issue.
Nor does having read 200 plus issues of ASM in one year grant you the depth of understanding of arcs and significance of particular events that long-time readers like myself will know off by heart.
I’m not saying I am ‘better’ than him, I am just saying someone who has only been reading a year is a noob by comparison, is all.

Similarly, he might like USM better because he can’t stand Norman Osborn being a super powered villain in a suit etc, and a lot of 616 Spider-man, but guess what? That means he is not really that big a fan of Spider-man. 616 Spider-man is Spidey, anything else is just a tribute or re interpretation and basically not Spider-man. So Banshee might dig USM, but does that qualify him as a fan of SM to level of myself? Basically no because apart from the reading 200+ issues in one year, he appears to not even really like 616 Spider-man.

If your allowed to bash usm, then hes allowed to bash ASM.

There 2 very different comics and they both appeal to many.

This is true..

I like both. Usm started out as an interesting what if? comic at first but its become a good contemporary version of the classic Spidey tale. It aims to be different in terms of stories and some characters, and thats what makes it a fresh and interesting read, especially with all the "life chaging" events constantly happening in the 616 universe in general.

For me I just see it as a bastardisation of the real Spider-man, though, that ain’t far off from the past three and a half years of 616 Spidey.

 

[Secret_Riddle]

Well dangerous, you've got some good points, but all in all, its just not a great time to be a spidey fan (if your not a movie freek).

But thats for another thread

 

[Dark Spidey]

Which can be somewhat fixed with the "Oz Cure" that has been also offered to Peter.

Okay. But for me the damage has already been done. Bendis has already (for want of a better expression) insulted my intelligence, by expecting me to buy into the claim that the Ultimate Doc Ock we've all been reading for the past five years, had these Magneto-lite powers all along!

How are none of you die-hard USM fans not offended by this too?

 

[Feature]

Okay. But for me the damage has already been done. Bendis has already (for want of a better expression) insulted my intelligence, by expecting me to buy into the claim that the Ultimate Doc Ock we've all been reading for the past five years, had these Magneto-lite powers all along!

How are none of you die-hard USM fans not offended by this too?

It is quite offensive... IF that is indeed the case. But while that is a fair assumption to make it is only an assumptions, and Ock's newly-revealed powers have not yet been adequately explained (although that is something that definetly should have happened during the Clone Saga).

If Ock has, in fact, had control over metal and knew about it since day one, then it is safe to say Bendis thinks we're morons. However, if we learn that Ock only discovered his new abilities AFTER the Hollywood arc, then that's fine. It seems to me that the destruction of his arms caused him to realize that it was not the arms he could control, but the metal. He tried to keep this a secret during his tenure with the government so that he wouldn't arouse suspicions and could continue his work tormenting Peter. You have to think that makes more sense.

I feel that Bendis will go that route, rather than say that Ock knew he could control metal from the beginning. The powers were still a cheap way for Bendis to get around Ock having his tentacles destroyed, but I doubt... with the introduction of the 'Oz Cure'... it will be permanent.

 

[The Joker]

The powers were still a cheap way for Bendis to get around Ock having his tentacles destroyed, but I doubt... with the introduction of the 'Oz Cure'... it will be permanent.

It's still a no win situation. If Ock is given that cure, then he has no control over anything. He'll never be able to command tentacles, or metal again. If he doesn't take it, he's still a poor man's Magneto rip off.

Bendis really screwed up good on this one.

 

[avpmaster132004]

This thread is Evil! Its the Bizzaro USM thread! <_< *stands on box in hobo clothes* THE END IS COMING!!!!!!

 

[diespinne]

So... exactly how many times has Ultimate Elektra kicked Ultimate Spidey's butt?

 

[Shifty]

Okay. But for me the damage has already been done. Bendis has already (for want of a better expression) insulted my intelligence, by expecting me to buy into the claim that the Ultimate Doc Ock we've all been reading for the past five years, had these Magneto-lite powers all along!

How are none of you die-hard USM fans not offended by this too?

It is, the only explanation is that he was told that he could control the arms not metal. Once he lost his arms he discovered he could control them from far away. Once they were destroyed he discovered he could control metal. We accept the reality shown to us and Ock believed he could only control his tentacles at first and not metal.

 

[Shin-Natsume]

It is, the only explanation is that he was told that he could control the arms not metal. Once he lost his arms he discovered he could control them from far away. Once they were destroyed he discovered he could control metal. We accept the reality shown to us and Ock believed he could only control his tentacles at first and not metal.

i lve usm...
i really really do...

and i lvoe every single bit of it, (except one) and i see everything as cool since its usm and not 616 so everything can happen. id also love to see even more changes...

but what i dont get is octopus. first, it does not makie sense, tehn its crap and above everything it cant work, or octopus has to fly. because during the battle he hovers in the air as if his arms woudl carry him but his arms are not attached to him...
plain stupid...

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Just to follow up on the volume 2 talk, there were several instances in the early issues of vol. 2 where the John Byrne continuity came into play. It was only after Byrne left the books they retconned the retcon back to the classic version.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Eww, why was this thread ressurected?

USM is like any other book. Its had its good times and its bad times. Right now just happens to be one of its low points. It's a target for criticism because it radically changes characters, but considering that's the nature of the series, that's understandable. People can choose to dislike it, but it's been selling like 25,000+ more copies than any other Spidey title so they must be doing something right.

Edit: Actually, upon review of sales figues, ASM often sells more copies than USM, although USM is ahead of SSM and FNSM.

This is a good point. USM may have some bad moments, and sure lots of the characters are completley different from 616, but it's a completley seperate continuity, it's a different universe. It's not supposed to be 616 spidey.

And honestly, of some of the bad ideas going on in USM is it anything compared to what's happened in 616 spidey over the past coupple years? I don't think so, at least that's my opinion.

 

[Dark Spidey]

It is, the only explanation is that he was told that he could control the arms not metal. Once he lost his arms he discovered he could control them from far away. Once they were destroyed he discovered he could control metal. We accept the reality shown to us and Ock believed he could only control his tentacles at first and not metal.

This would be more acceptable. Though it would still feel to me like the cheap, lazy, easy way out of the position Bendis wrote Ock into, regarding his tentacles.

However going over Ock's lines in issue #104, I still think that this theory is wishful thinking anyway.

"MAYBE I DON'T NEED TO MAKE ARMS."

"BUT I LIKE THEM."

"I GOT GOOD AT THEM."

"CALL ME CRAZY... I GUESS I LIKED BEING CALLED DOCTOR OCTOPUS."

 

[Won '08]

Just to follow up on the volume 2 talk, there were several instances in the early issues of vol. 2 where the John Byrne continuity came into play. It was only after Byrne left the books they retconned the retcon back to the classic version.

Good Lookin' on the support.

 

[Dark Spidey]

Having read the latest issue... I have to admit... it was hard not to like it. There was some great heart-string-tugging moments in there. Especially with Peter's bedside speech to an unconscious May. And it was also about time Peter got his due from Fury. Yeah... One of the best issues i've read in a long time.

But. As moving as it was. It still didn't redeem this whole sorry mess of a story arc. I didn't like that Peter gave absolutely no thought what-so-ever to Kitty, even after everything had quietened down. As for Gwen. It seems the memory of her character was raped just for sake of shock value. Or even worse, as eluded to towards the end of the issue, there's more rapage to come!

Also, i'm confused as to which Parker house got totalled by the big Carnage street brawl a few issues back. I thought it was their old one. That in a desperate search for MJ, Peter had gone looking there, when he come across Gwen. But here it seems to have been the new house Peter and May recently moved into.

 

[gliderpilotgirl]

Having read the latest issue... I have to admit... it was hard not to like it. There was some great heart-string-tugging moments in there. Especially with Peter's bedside speech to an unconscious May. And it was also about time Peter got his due from Fury. Yeah... One of the best issues i've read in a long time.
But. As moving as it was. It still didn't redeem this whole sorry mess of a story arc. I didn't like that Peter gave absolutely no thought what-so-ever to Kitty, even after everything had quietened down. As for Gwen. It seems the memory of her character was raped just for sake of shock value. Or even worse, as eluded to towards the end of the issue, there's more rapage to come!

Peter never giving a thought to Kitty: I think it shows how ill-advised this relationship was from the beginning, and Peter seriously owes her an apology. He's used her shamelessly, denying her the deep connection he's held with MJ. Peter is the one in the wrong here.
And this is coming from a dedicated Peter/MJ fan. That said, I don't want to ever see Kitty and Peter back together again. Bad idea.

Also, i'm confused as to which Parker house got totalled by the big Carnage street brawl a few issues back. I thought it was their old one. That in a desperate search for MJ, Peter had gone looking there, when he come across Gwen. But here it seems to have been the new house Peter and May recently moved into.

If I recall right, May freaked and ran to the new house, Peter and Gwen following. At which point Richard walked in the door. It had the be the new house, because he went into May's fridge to feed Gwen.

 

[Dark Spidey]

Peter never giving a thought to Kitty: I think it shows how ill-advised this relationship was from the beginning, and Peter seriously owes her an apology. He's used her shamelessly, denying her the deep connection he's held with MJ. Peter is the one in the wrong here.
And this is coming from a dedicated Peter/MJ fan. That said, I don't want to ever see Kitty and Peter back together again. Bad idea.


If I recall right, May freaked and ran to the new house, Peter and Gwen following. At which point Richard walked in the door. It had the be the new house, because he went into May's fridge to feed Gwen.

Agreed. I also don't want to see Peter and Kitty together either. But I think he should have atleast spared her some thought.

As for May running to the new house... I don't remember that! Go back and check, I swear that never happened

 

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Just to follow up on the volume 2 talk, there were several instances in the early issues of vol. 2 where the John Byrne continuity came into play. It was only after Byrne left the books they retconned the retcon back to the classic version.

Including that awful, awful villain. Power Man or something? Captain Power maybe? The one that was created in the same nuclear explosion that created Peter and Ock.

I wouldn't mind seeing him show up again with a tweaked (and Ch1-free) origin just so they could kill him off.

 

[fallenAngel]

USM was the first spider man title I really read. I have casually read issues in my younger days, and therefore I new I loved spider man and this I felt was a good way to jump on board. The real reason it was made, basically for people like me. Lately I have read back issues of ASM and Web of Spiderman in order to get my spidey fix while waiting for that movie to finally come out.

oddly, as soon as I graduated high school/passed peter in age by a few years, around the Venom arc (I think) I found I no longer cared about this tilte much. I still read it but meh, every arc (with the exception of hollywood) felt worse than the last really. Maybe the quality has gone down hill, or I found myself no longer relating or being involved with the character. I have not read the Clone Saga yet but am planning on it being my last arc. The series continuity has become too convoulted and I am too casual about comics nowadays.

The death of Gwen really set me off, other than that most of the changes haven't bothered me too much. Though I don't like the goblin design, or the fact that Harry was the Hobgobling since not knowing who he was was my favorite things about his original counterpart. There are almost no villains whose identities are not known, mostly because in all comic universes and titles there is a sufficient lack of any new characters. (good ones anyway) Which is one major reason why so many classic favorites are getting bastardized over and over again.

 

[MattXG]

All goes to show you what happens when you remake or reimagine a classic character people have lived with, cherished, read, and loved for years.

Unless you ddin't read the character people have lived with, cherished, read, and loved for years.

And you wanted to get the story from the beginning -- simply by starting from the beginning.

Not to mention, USM has been more "Classic Spider-Man" than the 616 Spidey over the last 5 or 6 years now.

Sins Past + Avengers + The Other + Iron Spidey + Unmasking to the world= not the character people have lived with, cherished, read, and loved for years.

And that's my take on it.

 

[Dangerous]

There has also been lots of awesome stuff in the last 5 years.
Namely Spectacular V2 and MKSM/Sensational, that stuff is more classic Spider-man than the USM crap.