The Atheism Thread - Part 5

[Snow Queen]

If God had to strike out all evil right now...he'd have to kill each and everyone last one of us..because we are all partly evil..our flesh is wicked and will lead to destruction. Our flesh wants to drink, fornicate, steal, curse, assault....it makes sense God to strike us out like in Noah's time.

But we serve a patient God...a God that wants as many people saved as possible...that's why Jesus was sent. He provides salvation to our spirit...but not to our fleshly body. Once our spirit unites with God...our spirit is secure..but each of our bodies will die. Patience is necessary to show loyalty and unity and preserve those before Final Judgment.

Evil comes from the Devil tempting Adam and Eve according to Christianity, correct? So...why is the devil around? If God can see the future, why did he allow the devil to exist? Why does he put temptation there to begin with? How are Adam and Eve supposed to know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil, when they haven't eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? And if they knew beforehand, then why is it there? And why would a benevolent God create beings that have evil? Why not just create beings without evil? What is the positive in creating imperfect beings?

Our flesh does not want to steal or assault (cursing, drinking and fornication aren't actually bad things outside of a book also condemning eating pork, shaving your beard and wearing clothes made of two fabrics). If this were true, those without the belief in a God would be killing and stealing all the time. But....I don't see (or haven't seen in the case of dead examples) Morgan Freeman (I kinda find it ironic that he's an atheist), George Carlin, Bill Maher, Ayn Rand, Alan Turing, David Suzuki, Richard Dawkins or Stephen Hawking doing any of that.

Why create people that need saving? Why, to save them, would he send down his son (which is also him) through immaculate conception and birth to create a new religion instead of the one you are already the God of and could have changed if you wanted to (if you are to believe that the Bible and other holy books are inspired) which is then involved in one of the largest child molestation problems in history and wars in your name instead of just...*poof* and everyone's good?

 

[Thundercrack85]

Atheism requires fixating on the broken world that is slowly tearing you down....that's why I Leave It..and choose Christ that keeps peace in midst of the storm....

Last I checked it was the fanatics who were raving about the world's condition. But alright.

 

[SentinelMind]

Evil comes from the Devil tempting Adam and Eve according to Christianity, correct? So...why is the devil around? If God can see the future, why did he allow the devil to exist? Why does he put temptation there to begin with? How are Adam and Eve supposed to know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil, when they haven't eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? And if they knew beforehand, then why is it there? And why would a benevolent God create beings that have evil? Why not just create beings without evil? What is the positive in creating imperfect beings?

God created a paradise for those who obeyed His commandments. Once mankind chose to separate themselves from following His commandments, suffering entered in the world. The world has been a playground between God and Satan. If your Creator gives you commandment not do something....and you choose to listen to a possessed demonic creature instead...well you get what you deserve. Devil was a talented angel that wants worship that doesn't belong to him...that's evil...he's been tempting mankind ever since the Fall, but mankind has to take responsibility for its own actions. That means, you can't just blame the devil..you have to blame yourself for your own decisions.

What's awesome about God is that He created a long, persevering way out...saving our spirit. We have to believe that His son died on the cross, and rose again and will serve as mediatior between imperfect world and God the Father.

Our flesh does not want to steal or assault (cursing, drinking and fornication aren't actually bad things outside of a book also condemning eating pork, shaving your beard and wearing clothes made of two fabrics). If this were true, those without the belief in a God would be killing and stealing all the time. But....I don't see (or haven't seen in the case of dead examples) Morgan Freeman (I kinda find it ironic that he's an atheist), George Carlin, Bill Maher, Ayn Rand, Alan Turing, David Suzuki, Richard Dawkins or Stephen Hawking doing any of that.

If you don't think cursing that creates division, rampant fornication that spreads diseases and creates envy, disloyalty, and long term emotional turmoil
...I don't know what to say. I didn't say atheists kill, I said our flesh causes us to do any amount of multitudes of sins...., which can include wrath. Do you know any of those people personally to state what sins they are or aren't struggling with

Why create people that need saving? Why, to save them, would he send down his son (which is also him) through immaculate conception and birth to create a new religion instead of the one you are already the God of and could have changed if you wanted to (if you are to believe that the Bible and other holy books are inspired) which is then involved in one of the largest child molestation problems in history and wars in your name instead of just...*poof* and everyone's good?

God of Abraham is still same God that apostles followed. The Old Testament spoke of a savior that will bear sins of mankind and suffer punishment on our behalf...its written in Isaiah 53..of course some Jews reject Christ as Messiah, but there's no disputing that matyr Messiah was written in Old Testament times. Jesus began the New Covenant for us...which is different from Covenant between God and kingdom of Israel. It's still same God.

Second, Catholic <> Christian....so take your criticism of child molestation Catholic Church if you want to but don't malign that against mainstream, Protestant New Testament Christians. I think statement war in name of Christ is hypocritical....Christ isn't responsible for what some military political leader says is done in His name...judge Christ for what He did as documented in Holy Bible. It's also hypocritical because people who make this argument never want to attribute the atrocities that atheist leaders commit to their lack of faith in God...they'll say atheism isn't a religion and that the murder had nothing to do with atheism...so atheism can't be criticized...but some leader publicly claiming Christ is an indictment of Christ for some reason.

 

[SentinelMind]

Last I checked it was the fanatics who were raving about the world's condition. But alright.

Atheists look forward failed attempt to create a humanistic paradise on earth. That will fail. Christians do point out humanistic world system is evil adamantly...that is true.

 

[zeroapoc]

Not buying what you're selling.

 

[Snow Queen]

God created a paradise for those who obeyed His commandments. Once mankind chose to separate themselves from following His commandments, suffering entered in the world. The world has been a playground between God and Satan. If your Creator gives you commandment not do something....and you choose to listen to a possessed demonic creature instead...well you get what you deserve. Devil was a talented angel that wants worship that doesn't belong to him...that's evil...he's been tempting mankind ever since the Fall, but mankind has to take responsibility for its own actions. That means, you can't just blame the devil..you have to blame yourself for your own decisions.

What's awesome about God is that He created a long, persevering way out...saving our spirit. We have to believe that His son died on the cross, and rose again and will serve as mediatior between imperfect world and God the Father.

If your Creator gives you a command and you don't know the difference between good and evil, right and wrong, because he won't let you eat from the tree containing that knowledge, then how can you be expected to know listening to him is the right thing to do?

Again, why does the devil exist to tempt people? Why does this benevolent God not get rid of him?

If you don't think cursing that creates division, rampant fornication that spreads diseases and creates envy, disloyalty, and long term emotional turmoil
...I don't know what to say. I didn't say atheists kill, I said our flesh causes us to do any amount of multitudes of sins...., which can include wrath. Do you know any of those people personally to state what sins they are or aren't struggling with

Cursing and fornication do not create those on their own. One could sleep with two men/women outside of marriage at different points in their life, come out with no diseases and nothing is wrong. This happens often. And cursing (ex. F***, s***, etc...) don't create division. Unless you are referring to things like the n word or other racial/gender slurs, in which case almost everyone should agree.

No, but if our flesh causes us to do sins, what restrains it? God? Then how do atheists restrain it? Or people of other religions? And how do you know that our flesh causes us to do things?

God of Abraham is still same God that apostles followed. The Old Testament spoke of a savior that will bear sins of mankind and suffer punishment on our behalf...its written in Isaiah 53..of course some Jews reject Christ as Messiah, but there's no disputing that matyr Messiah was written in Old Testament times. Jesus began the New Covenant for us...which is different from Covenant between God and kingdom of Israel. It's still same God.

I understand that it is the same God, which is why it falls apart. Why does he not inspire the writers of the Old Testament to start in a new direction? Why, instead, create a new religion, which (since he can see the future), he knows will cause more divisions between people and start wars that continue even to this day.

Second, Catholic <> Christian....so take your criticism of child molestation Catholic Church if you want to but don't malign that against mainstream, Protestant New Testament Christians. I think statement war in name of Christ is hypocritical....Christ isn't responsible for what some military political leader says is done in His name...judge Christ for what He did as documented in Holy Bible.

Okay. Evidence that the Bible is true? How are you to know he did anything in it?

And I am judging him on what he did. He decided to sit back and allow it to happen instead of intervening. What kind of benevolent God allows that?

 

[SentinelMind]

Not buying what you're selling.

You can't buy what God is offering..you can take free gift God has given to all man...or reject it and keep the temporary bliss of the flesh that will eventually rot. There's no disputing the limitations of the flesh...flesh is corrupt and can't bring any eternal happiness. Just know what you're dealing with...

 

[Thundercrack85]

Why is the flesh corrupt? Even when I was "religious", or I guess you could argue, open to the idea of higher powers (back when my brain was still developing), that bothered me.

This whole being born in sin stuff really bothers me. It's a terrible thing to teach children.

 

[SentinelMind]

If your Creator gives you a command and you don't know the difference between good and evil, right and wrong, because he won't let you eat from the tree containing that knowledge, then how can you be expected to know listening to him is the right thing to do?

Eve knew instructions of God from Adam. There is no dispute about it. Eve decided to listen to allure of Satan because she tried to appeal to her egomania. It's that simple...they knew what their Creator commanded.

Again, why does the devil exist to tempt people? Why does this benevolent God not get rid of him?

the Benevolent God will punish the spirit..for eternity....spirit exist eternally..and can suffer eternally..the spirit is not like flesh which just dies...it lives..devil and all demonic rebels will be dealt with. The fact of matter remains that Devil's presence is immaterial to those who are saved and trust in Jesus. It doesn't matter if Devil is is room with you...if you trust Jesus..you have nothing to worry about. That's the faith that God demands. God is trying to save souls...not flesh that will rot and disappear.

Cursing and fornication do not create those on their own. One could sleep with two men/women outside of marriage at different points in their life, come out with no diseases and nothing is wrong. This happens often. And cursing (ex. F***, s***, etc...) don't create division. Unless you are referring to things like the n word or other racial/gender slurs, in which case almost everyone should agree.

we're going to have to disagree ehre...if you think promiscuity is good..well I don't think I can convince you. Many women who slept around have reported long term depression and inability to bond and trust future lovers. It is reported those who sleep around alot before marriage are more likely to get divorce...but I suppose you will say nothing wrong with that either. Cursing is just crude and offensive...its pretty self-explanatory, but I won't bother arguing this point..

No, but if our flesh causes us to do sins, what restrains it? God? Then how do atheists restrain it? Or people of other religions? And how do you know that our flesh causes us to do things?

Some people have ability to restrain themselves from some sins...nobody can restrain themselves from all sins. We all suffer and addicted to some sins...might be different from your neighbor...but we are all sinners. Jesus can help us mature and train to resist some sins...but we're still sinners even after knowing Jesus. Jesus's purpose is to save our souls...not necessarily see that we never sin again because that is impossible in sinful flesh.

I understand that it is the same God, which is why it falls apart. Why does he not inspire the writers of the Old Testament to start in a new direction? Why, instead, create a new religion, which (since he can see the future), he knows will cause more divisions between people and start wars that continue even to this day.

I don't understand first half of this.....the second half I discussed. God will create division with world that opposes him. The world already chose to abandon God...to suggest God should reconcile with a world that reject Him doesn't make sense...He's the Creator/Author/Finisher...he doesn't owe a world that chose to reject him and go their own way...anything. It seems naive to assume that God submitting to the world (a blasphemous idea) will somehow create peace. That just exposes the hypocritical nonsense.

Okay. Evidence that the Bible is true? How are you to know he did anything in it?

And I am judging him on what he did. He decided to sit back and allow it to happen instead of intervening. What kind of benevolent God allows that?

The death and resurrection has been documented by Romans who were indifferent and numerous apostles and future disciples, included former Jews like Saul who persecuted Christians. Of course, the question becomes why should I trust these sources. It's hypocritical to dismiss sources ..because you don't like the agenda of sources. It's exactly what the critics are doing. Nobody questions whether Alexander the Great lived..because he was not controversial. But a God that comes to take away sin from the world...that's controversial..so doubt everything...so we can continue to sin in bliss...

 

[chaseter]

Here's the thing that bothers me...a creator loves all his children and you are sinning if you do something wrong yet we are in an awful, terrible world where you look forward to the afterlife more than your current one. Why not just make a perfect world to begin with where no one went to Hell because there was no sin? It's inherently flawed. That's why I hate religion. While I do believe that a higher power(s) exist, I don't think they give a dump about what goes on because so much goes wrong every day with zero intervention. Would it not eat the soul of an omnipotent being seeing children murdered by pedophiles? If there is an afterlife, it would be terribly wrong to only allow people in that worship you when you could have made that the only option to begin with. Kids in Africa that were taught to worship the river god go to Hell because they aren't saved by the blood of Christ.

All of that addresses Christianity.

 

[SentinelMind]

Why is the flesh corrupt? Even when I was "religious", or I guess you could argue, open to the idea of higher powers (back when my brain was still developing), that bothered me.

This whole being born in sin stuff really bothers me. It's a terrible thing to teach children.

It's terrible to teach kids we are sinners? Flesh is our humanly body...it is sinful..it is tempted to hurt others, lie to protect itself, lust after others, engage in drunken bliss....those things are harmul...and natural tendencies of our body. If we gave into these temptations...we'd face certain destruction.

Life is hard...we have to struggle against temptation our entire life...it sucks..but its right thing we have to tell our children when young...so they don't ruin their lives in the future. We have to deal with reality and human condition, instead of ignoring it away which I...know some nonreligious family members who suffered in trying to do that very thing.

 

[chaseter]

If the flesh is sinful (because not a single person is of no sin), what is the point of the flesh then? Isn't that sort of inherently flawed by a creator that knows the future and can never be wrong? Don't say Adam and Eve because other humans were running around.

 

[zeroapoc]

You can't buy what God is offering..you can take free gift God has given to all man...or reject it and keep the temporary bliss of the flesh that will eventually rot. There's no disputing the limitations of the flesh...flesh is corrupt and can't bring any eternal happiness. Just know what you're dealing with...

God hasn't offered me anything as I've never met the guy. If he wants his "children" to behave a certain way he should have been more involved. As it stands right now he's basically a deadbeat absentee father.

 

[Snow Queen]

Eve knew instructions of God from Adam. There is no dispute about it. Eve decided to listen to allure of Satan because she tried to appeal to her egomania. It's that simple...they knew what their Creator commanded.

But she, nor he, can't know right from wrong without eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

the Benevolent God will punish the spirit..for eternity....spirit exist eternally..and can suffer eternally..the spirit is not like flesh which just dies...it lives..devil and all demonic rebels will be dealt with. The fact of matter remains that Devil's presence is immaterial to those who are saved and trust in Jesus. It doesn't matter if Devil is is room with you...if you trust Jesus..you have nothing to worry about. That's the faith that God demands. God is trying to save souls...not flesh that will rot and disappear.

So what is he waiting for then? Is he waiting for them to cancel his favourite show before he punishes him? Why allow him to continue corrupting people?

we're going to have to disagree ehre...if you think promiscuity is good..well I don't think I can convince you. Many women who slept around have reported long term depression and inability to bond and trust future lovers. It is reported those who sleep around alot before marriage are more likely to get divorce...but I suppose you will say nothing wrong with that either. Cursing is just crude and offensive...its pretty self-explanatory, but I won't bother arguing this point..

No, promiscuity isn't good. It's just not bad either. It's neither. Unless, of course, you're sleeping with someone who is married or you yourself are married or dating. If two people are dating and love each other enough, they can do that. But I agree to drop it.

Some people have ability to restrain themselves from some sins...nobody can restrain themselves from all sins. We all suffer and addicted to some sins...might be different from your neighbor...but we are all sinners. Jesus can help us mature and train to resist some sins...but we're still sinners even after knowing Jesus. Jesus's purpose is to save our souls...not necessarily see that we never sin again because that is impossible in sinful flesh.

Honestly, I'm not too sure how to respond to this. I do agree with the "we all make mistakes part" (but, of course, we see differently as to what mistakes are) but the rest of it....I'll be honest, I'm just tired at this point.

I don't understand first half of this.....the second half I discussed. God will create division with world that opposes him. The world already chose to abandon God...to suggest God should reconcile with a world that reject Him doesn't make sense...He's the Creator/Author/Finisher...he doesn't owe a world that chose to reject him and go their own way...anything. It seems naive to assume that God submitting to the world (a blasphemous idea) will somehow create peace. That just exposes the hypocritical nonsense.

If he is the Creator and wants people to love him, he can just have it done. It's not owed but neither is worship for someone that allows evil to continue.

The death and resurrection has been documented by Romans who were indifferent and numerous apostles and future disciples, included former Jews like Saul who persecuted Christians. Of course, the question becomes why should I trust these sources. It's hypocritical to dismiss sources ..because you don't like the agenda of sources. It's exactly what the critics are doing. Nobody questions whether Alexander the Great lived..because he was not controversial. But a God that comes to take away sin from the world...that's controversial..so doubt everything...so we can continue to sin in bliss...

You want to know why Alexander the Great isn't debatable? Because no one claimed he created the world in six days (which science has disproved), formed man (science has proved that we evolved), is invisible, knows all, had the most convoluted plan to "save" people he condemned in the first place and his existence wasn't used to explain natural phenomena. The gap for a God is quickly closing as we discover more about our planet. He's been a way for less evolved civilizations to explain everything from the creation of our planet, where humans came from to the weather. But now we know about evolution, how weather works, the existence of other galaxies, more than what past civilizations could and they just filled the gap with God.

Anyway, we're getting nowhere on this. Want to just save us both time and drop it?

 

[chaseter]

That's the contradiction, either God is a flawed being (which I can accept) or he is a malevolent creator that knew that a lot of his flock would burn in Hell for all eternity and didn't make a perfect world to being with where there was no sin so that none of his children would suffer and everyone would get into Heaven.

 

[regwec]

Guys, just look at his avatar. He clearly doesn't believe the baloney, and is just playing Devil's advocate for fun.

 

[jmc]

So I was catching up on some biblical reading recently and man I forgot how much of a tool the christian god is in those stories. Seriously comes across like a spoiled brat half the freakin' time.

 

[antonydelfini]

I used to ask those questions myself. How come God allows evil and all the bad things in the world to exist if He's so powerful? And I have to say it's actually better that way.

The main goal of christians is to get to heaven. You have to prove yourself before getting there.

I mean, if you want to be a doctor, you have to take up the course first, you'd be given tests, etc. The teachers could just give you all the answers when you take up a test but they won't. It doesn't mean the teachers are bad, they just want you to prove yourself. You need to show discipline, perseverance, and all other positive qualities to actually get there. Imagine if the teachers just give the students all the answers, make their projects for them, etc.

Now you want to get to heaven, you got to go through $%!t. Like the Bible says,

"So be truly glad.There is wonderful joy ahead, even though you have to endure many trials for a little while. These trials will show that your faith is genuine. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold&#8212;though your faith is far more precious than mere gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world.
You love him even though you have never seen him. Though you do not see him now, you trust him; and you rejoice with a glorious, inexpressible joy."


Anyway, that's how I see it now. Just sharing.

 

[redhawk23]

Guys, just look at his avatar. He clearly doesn't believe the baloney, and is just playing Devil's advocate for fun.

See I thought the same thing when encountering his "feminist/misandrist conspiracy" thread yesterday.

He is sincere.

 

[redhawk23]

I used to ask those questions myself. How come God allows evil and all the bad things in the world to exist if He's so powerful? And I have to say it's actually better that way.

The main goal of christians is to get to heaven. You have to prove yourself before getting there.

I mean, if you want to be a doctor, you have to take up the course first, you'd be given tests, etc. The teachers could just give you all the answers when you take up a test but they won't. It doesn't mean the teachers are bad, they just want you to prove yourself. You need to show discipline, perseverance, and all other positive qualities to actually get there. Imagine if the teachers just give the students all the answers, make their projects for them, etc.

Now you want to get to heaven, you got to go through $%!t. Like the Bible says,

"So be truly glad.There is wonderful joy ahead, even though you have to endure many trials for a little while. These trials will show that your faith is genuine. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold—though your faith is far more precious than mere gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world.
You love him even though you have never seen him. Though you do not see him now, you trust him; and you rejoice with a glorious, inexpressible joy."


Anyway, that's how I see it now. Just sharing.

So what about people who live their life with relative ease? While life throws curves at everyone, there are people who face far more challenges and hardship in life than others, both currently and across time.

 

[Spider-Who?]

Why is the flesh corrupt? Even when I was "religious", or I guess you could argue, open to the idea of higher powers (back when my brain was still developing), that bothered me.

Ah yes, the dig - an atheist's best friend. Because only underdeveloped swine find any solace in religion.

This whole being born in sin stuff really bothers me. It's a terrible thing to teach children.

It's a very basic truth told in an inappropriate way, at least for children (most people I know do not use this terminology with their children, however). That truth being that humans are highly fallible creatures who are capable of bad deeds. The "flesh is corrupt", IMO is an extension of that, as selfishness, an ego-centric mentality, comes from within, and is the seed from which the vast majority of sin and trouble comes from.

I think that as far as children are concerned, this is a little too philosophical for them, and the oversimplification that "everyone is born with original sin" (ie: that human tendency for narcissistic-based action) just overshadows the truth of it with the obvious imagery and baggage that comes with such statements.

In short, its another way of saying "every one has the potential to do bad things, and everyone will do bad things in their lifetime - it's inevitable."

 

[Thundercrack85]

It's fairly simple. You are being held accountable for what your ancestors did. Which is a pretty unethical thing to teach. The fact that it is based on a myth and taught as fact is almost as bad.

This is child abuse.

 

[redhawk23]

Religious people are plenty intelligent. Most religions are highly developed and complex and some have had thousands of years of thought and scholarship devoted to examining their implications.

Its just a matter that most religions operate under an epistemology, a standard for claims making and knowledge validation, that ultimately I reject. Its why its not really pertinent to even try to argue the point most of the time, because they are literally not even approaching reality by the same standard.

 

[Dr.]

See I thought the same thing when encountering his "feminist/misandrist conspiracy" thread yesterday.

He is sincere.

Poe's Law.

 

[redhawk23]

Precisely.