The Avengers vs X-Men: Days of Future Past

[Whiskey Tango]

lol holy **** @ this thread

 

[Lord]

lol holy **** @ this thread

I believe this must have really been an important opinion on the subject that you really had to share with people. Glad to see such insightful posts.

 

[def28]

All my opinion, not trying to label this as fact...

I think these two flicks share about the same reception for now, at least here. So to each their own. Shouldn't matter. I think the main difference right now is Avengers happened to be seen by a **** ton of more people when it came out and has more appeal. The MCU literally destroyed the X-Men franchise on how to properly build your world and give love to the characters comic fans have known for decades.

I'm an X-Men fan over Avengers when it comes to the books. Easily considered myself an X-Men fan over Avengers actually. No contest. But personally, I'm judging these two franchises mostly on capturing why I'm a fan of the Avengers and X-Men characters in general. And out of the two flicks , Avengers put out. In every way possible imo. It was like watching Star Wars for the first time. I want to see the characters I know and love represented on the screen in full force. And it did that and then some. I don't give a **** if it's not 100% accurate. Or if it has the most gut wrenching or depressing moments. It put out on the entertainment and love for the characters pretty close to perfect.

Film makers at Fox need to give these characters the essence on why people love them. I'm scared ****less still on how major characters like Emma Frost, Deadpool, Cyclops, Storm, Rogue, Psylocke, Angel, Cable, Domino, Magik and pretty much every other X-Men character I love besides Logan, Prof X and Magneto are gonna be treated. A majority of those characters have been just as big in the Marvel Universe as any Avenger. This disrespect should not be happening but it has. As an X-Men fan that ****ing sucks. Yeah Mcavoy and Fassbender are awesome. But Prof X, Logan and Mags getting a good run is mattering to me less and less. After 14 years this should be a huge universe and it aint. DOFP did nothing to tell me they will start bringing the main focus on the characters I have been reading about for 20 years.

I think DOFP is a good Prof X movie with a decent supporting act by Magneto, and a solid set piece by Quicksilver. Nothing more. This is in no way the X-Men flick I've been waiting for. It's neither a good X-Men or Sentinel movie imo. Thought as a film the editing, narrative and pacing was much stronger in X2 and FC as well.

Avengers is the ultimate Superhero team flick I never thought would exist. That focused on all it's characters within a completely new level. Yeah, it it had the benefit of solos. But that's what made it work. It was built to work from them. I had never experienced a film franchise working like that, or actually being that entertaining and fun on top of that. It gets the edge on DOFP strictly for that reason with me. It's about all the members, not just one. Stoked we all have the choices for our favorites though. What matters within entertainment and storytelling is completely subjective, especially with two highly rated flcks like this.

 

[lee1983dixon]

I'm sorry, but what you label The Avengers to be, DOFP is similar to me...

Character arcs are not present/full in DOFP, unless you factor in FC, where you get then a truly full arc for Mystique and Xavier, who all agree are the main focus of the film.

Without FC foreshadowing, you ask questions like "Why is Mistique so angry?" and "What's got Xavier so downtrodden". A couple of lines from Beast explaining how he derailed when his students got drafted to the Vietnam war and mentions of how he uses the drugs to give him back the use of his legs...

So as a stand-alone film, does this make DOFP hollow? Does average joe who hasn't seen the previous 4 iterations of X-Men (ignoring Wolvie spin-offs) truly know what is going on? The emotion of seeing Jean/Scott alive at the end? Neither one was ever designed to be a stand-alone film where you need no prior knowledge to fully understand and enjoy it, and neither can be compared in that way IMO, aside from children who just want to see their favourite superheros fight the bad guys.

The Avengers completes the arcs of the four (five with Loki) main characters from the foreshadowing films. There's a reason why The Avengers is billed by MCU as the finale of Phase 1. It's like saying watch DOFP without any of the other films and appreciate it's start-to-finish storyline as a masterpeice in itself. Without the other films, for me, it does not reach anywhere near that level. I'm not interested in Wolverine without knowing the X1-3 films. Do I care who Magneto is because he attempted to assasinate Kennedy and is now controlling some giant robots? Who in the world is this bald guy claiming to be Xavier?!

Could Juggernaut have attempted to kill Trask/Nixon? Or Mr Sinister? Sabretooth? It's an invalid argument to say that Avengers stands alone and therefore Loki could be anyone taking over the world... DOFP could have placed anyone in the place of killing Trask, resulting in a war against mutants that Mystique eventually becomes one of the mutants experimented on et viola, super-sentinels. The reason it was Mystique truly was because of the conflict with Xavier and defection with Magneto in FC. What if people didn't go to see FC?

 

[Rock Sexton]

I could bring up numerous examples as to why Avengers is an overall inferior movie to not just DoFP but many other superhero films as well, but I don't because it's not trying to be anything but a superhero film. I'm actually ok with the movie being that because there's nothing wrong with simplicity when it's well made - and that's exactly what Avengers is. It's the purest superhero film ever made, unashamedly superhero in its delivery, it's not deep, it's not trying to say anything in particular, it's a movie that knows exactly what it is and asks the audience to just have fun with it. If that's all the film asks of me and it's well executed then I'm all for it. Lord I believe wanted more from a story and character perspective than what was delivered, and if that's what was hoped for I can see how one could label it hollow, it's not the word I would use but you break the story down enough to its foundations and it's not hard to see how someone like Lord can come to that conclusion. You don't have to agree with that assessment, hell even I don't particularly agree with that assessment, but you have to at least acknowledge what's there and see how someone might come to that conclusion. When I use Loki as an example it's because if you look at the characters motivation in Avengers you see just how basic a motivation it is - a motivation that has been used by thousands of villains throughout history and one that can be used by any number of villains today. It's really the only motivation they could have used given the nature of having to deal with 4 separate franchises that not everyone had seen. Someone like Lord might come along and say 'Eh, that's kinda been done to death' and not think much of it because of how interchangeable it can be with any other villains. And it's a valid viewpoint to have because again if you break it down you can see how it isn't overly important to the story that Loki is the bad guy in Avengers. That's not the same as saying it's bad, it's just saying his main role in that film is the be the antagonist, which is fine. Sometimes a role just has to be played by someone because the real selling point of the film is something else, in Avengers case it was the Avengers teaming up. For some people like Lord though that's not enough.

My beef is with the word "hollow" not so much "simplistic". Maybe my memory is fuzzy but since when has the comic Avengers franchise ever been about a deeper "message" and why would someone go to their movie looking for that? That's what I don't get about Lord's argument.

When you say it's unashamedly superhero, that's what I love about it.

Truth is even though it might not sound like it all the time I actually really love Avengers, it brings out the 10 year old in me. lol

I had a similar experience. It reminded me of excitement from my youth.

 

[Rock Sexton]

Oh, in that case I agree totally. That's true of all movies.

My point exactly.

 

[kasjan]

DOFP.
This movie has plot that is much more interesting.

 

[Lord]

I think you're confusing my statement of hollow, i didn't find Avengers Hollwo due to the lack of themes, for me it was hollow in the presentation, it's hard to explain, it's more about how i felt about the movie than a deep analysis, for me it felt hollow in the cinematography, presentation and pacing, not exactly due to lacking deep themes.

 

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

Film makers at Fox need to give these characters the essence on why people love them. I'm scared ****less still on how major characters like Emma Frost, Deadpool, Cyclops, Storm, Rogue, Psylocke, Angel, Cable, Domino, Magik and pretty much every other X-Men character I love besides Logan, Prof X and Magneto are gonna be treated. A majority of those characters have been just as big in the Marvel Universe as any Avenger. This disrespect should not be happening but it has. As an X-Men fan that ****ing sucks.

100% agree.

I do love X2 and DoFP, they along with the Avengers are my favorite films in the genre, but as long as Singer is guiding the ship we'll never get the X-Men we love in the comics. He's always had a more narrow view of what he likes from the books and I doubt that changes.

 

[Lord]

I disagree, with DoFP he didn't really have the oportunity to give much focus to the future characters, but the ones from the focused timeline (70s) received their right screentime, from now on, i doubt they will keep s**** over popular characters.

 

[def28]

I disagree, with DoFP he didn't really have the oportunity to give much focus to the future characters, but the ones from the focused timeline (70s) received their right screentime, from now on, i doubt they will keep s**** over popular characters.

They did with Emma Frost in here. Singer's had no problem shoving in mute characters or giving A list X-Men no screen time in all his X flicks. Nothing new to DOFP.

 

[Lord]

Well, she wasn't important to this story and wasn't even present, i can see what you say though, but i'm quite hopeful for the X-Men franchise for now, Gambit will aparently return, and i'm sure he will be well used.

 

[BoredGuy]

Yeah as long as Fox is making X-movies, there will always be underutilized and underdeveloped A-list characters in the films, deferring screen time to Wolverine, Xavier, Magneto, and apparently now Mystique. For that reason (as well as many others), I'm disappointed in how close the poll results are. I think when time goes on and the hype subsides, people will see the many glaring flaws in DOFP

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

There are many, many important X-Men from the comics. Far too many for a film series to do them all justice. Some are inevitably going to fall to the wayside.

I thought DoFP did a good job with Wolverine, Xavier, Magneto, Mystique, Beast, Quicksilver, and Shadowcat. As well as the human Trask and the Sentinels.

 

[def28]

Well, she wasn't important to this story and wasn't even present, i can see what you say though, but i'm quite hopeful for the X-Men franchise for now, Gambit will aparently return, and i'm sure he will be well used.

Yeah, I'm sure Gambit will be too with who they cast and since he's allegedly getting a solo.

Frost shouldn't have been killed. There was zero reason to do that. Really dumb move and a slap in the face to the character. She's a big deal with X-Men and sooner or later they will want to use her again. They should have known better by now.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I wasn't a fan of killing off the First Class characters either. Especially Azazel because he's the obvious main villain if they ever do a Nightcrawler film down the line.

 

[def28]

Just hurts them down the line. There's characters like Darwin or Angel Salvador where you can get away with it, otherwise those characters did not earn their off screen death.

Frost just opens too many potential storylines down the road.

 

[BlackFox]

Yeah as long as Fox is making X-movies, there will always be underutilized and underdeveloped A-list characters in the films, deferring screen time to Wolverine, Xavier, Magneto, and apparently now Mystique. For that reason (as well as many others), I'm disappointed in how close the poll results are. I think when time goes on and the hype subsides, people will see the many glaring flaws in DOFP

Nope, clearly they are both great and well loved by many both offering different things to different folks.

 

[Rock Sexton]

Just hurts them down the line. There's characters like Darwin or Angel Salvador where you can get away with it, otherwise those characters did not earn their off screen death.

Frost just opens too many potential storylines down the road.

Angel Salvador was sooooooooooooooo bad.

 

[JEM]

Just hurts them down the line. There's characters like Darwin or Angel Salvador where you can get away with it, otherwise those characters did not earn their off screen death.

Frost just opens too many potential storylines down the road.

If he wants, Singer can fix that very easy.
He can just say that Emma in Wolverine Origin is Emma Frost 's daughter (first class). Everyone is happy and Cyclops and Emma will have the same age .
Remember, people hated that Emma was too old for Cyclop by her inclusion in First Class. But now .......

 

[Crosswind Ghost]

Yeah as long as Fox is making X-movies, there will always be underutilized and underdeveloped A-list characters in the films, deferring screen time to Wolverine, Xavier, Magneto, and apparently now Mystique. For that reason (as well as many others), I'm disappointed in how close the poll results are. I think when time goes on and the hype subsides, people will see the many glaring flaws in DOFP

That's such a bogus thing to say. I loved DOFP, I thought Avengers was fun but nothing more. In a years time I'll still be able to say how great Dofp is, and how i still don't think much of Avengers. You generalizing everyone who happen to hold this film is such high regard; and how it'll subside, is ridiculous.

 

[kryptonjedi]

The hype for Days of Future Past will go down after some time sure, but some of you really act like your bothered by the simple fact that this thread even exists, or that days of future past is getting such reception. Nobody needs to be upset that poll results are close, DOFP and Avengers were both good films what's the problem?

 

[Lord]

If i remember it correctly, Emma was the only one in the group that wasn't actually shown to be dead, we just heard it, for all we know she could have even faked that, it could be retconed down the line as long as the plot asks for that, a proper Phoenix Saga adaptation sounds like the right place for that.

 

[Visualiza]

The hype for Days of Future Past will go down after some time sure, but some of you really act like your bothered by the simple fact that this thread even exists, or that days of future past is getting such reception. Nobody needs to be upset that poll results are close, DOFP and Avengers were both good films what's the problem?

That's what I've been wondering for the last several pages. I see a lot of people taking swipes at both of these movies to prop up the other. Different strokes I suppose, but I really think it's hard to find some of these extreme faults that have been mentioned with either. Guess that's just me. Sure, there are things that both of these movies do better than the other, but quite a few people are acting like one is an abomination compared to the other.

 

[DA_Champion]

I will list my critiques of the movie, small and large, in case anybody is interested. I think they may explain why this movie is not as good as it seems, and has not resonated with the public. I also link to my original review, in post #270, which includes many of the same thoughts:
http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=28870489&postcount=459

Small critiques:
- What are Bishop's powers as a mutant? He needs to absorb lightning from Storm? ok. What? He was a prominent component of the marketing, and in the movie he is meaningless;
- Throwaway line about President JFK being a mutant is "junk DNA", i.e. it is leftover vestigial dialogue from a previous stage of evolution of this project, the no-doubt superior first draft and pure 1960s period piece /sequel to First Class that Matthew Vaughn would have made if he had not been pushed out by the inferior Bryan Singer. In DoFP the Kennedy assassination is just a cool concept that's not followed up on.
- Old mutants, as well as young Beast, Wolverine, have no character arcs;
- Characters from First Class as Emma Frost unceremoniously killed off-screen;
- Movie promised to bring back "all the X-Men" but we're missing First Class and Wolverine characters;
- Line about Sentinels having adaptive power from Mystique's blood makes no sense and serves only to remind us that Anna Paquin's Rogue has been cut from the movie since everybody knows that's where the adaptation power came from in some superior previous script;
- Magneto was alone in a small room for 12 years with nothing to do and he has not lost weight or muscle mass, he is mentally healthy without any PTSD even though he would have been tortured, and his mutant powers have not atrophied in spite of total absence of use for 12 years;
- Shawn Ashmore showed up and reminded me of some of the worst Smallville episodes (J/K);

Intermediate critiques;
- Future sentinels are invincible but it's confusing. I think Storm damages them? Why doesn't future Magneto send them into space since they come in metal containers? Why doesn't he wrap them in metal and fly them off?
- I'm pretty sure the dramatic tension would be higher if the future sentinels were defeat able but barely so rather than invincible, but I'm not 100% sure;
- Old Magneto tells Wolverine during the exposition scene that he will need young Magneto to be successful in changing the future. However, young Magneto actually makes everything worse;
- There's no subtlety in the exposition scene at the start where Wolverine's mission is defined, it's a blatant exposition dump;
- Young Magneto has no character arc, and at the end he just repeats what he did in First Class, but it's less interesting this time. The confrontation again ends with a gunshot wound;
- Kitty Pride is injured by Wolverine when he is stressed out in the past, she is then bleeding and in pain for a while, but this goes nowhere;
- Bishop and Storm are first to die in the future scenes, they are cannon fodder and we only know Bishop is powerful because he's 6'3" and well-built, not because we see his powers;

Major critiques;
- Young Magneto reads blueprints of first-generation sentinels, then he wraps them with railroad tracks which somehow changes their internal software. This pseudo-science makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, which made what was going on in the climax scene difficult to follow as it was impossible to know that the internal software of the sentinels would be modified;
- Mystique's character arc is an inversion of her arc from the first film, but is done in an inferior manner. In the first film, she switched from good-to-evil in endearing moments, for example when Magneto tells her she can't be herself if she's always expending mental energy camouflaging her true form. In the second movie, she goes from wanting to kill Trask to wanting to stop Magneto because Xavier nags her. He keeps nagging her throughout the movie, then the nagging finally pays off in the climax scene because that's when the plot demands it;
- Xavier's character arc is made of three points. At first he's a drunk, then he's lukewarm due to arguments with Wolverine, then he's fully committed once he makes contact with his future self. I'm not sure that's convincing;
- Bolivar Trask has flat-screen panels in 1973, his sentinels look like they were designed by Steve Jobs circa 2005;
- Bolivar Trask is played up as a villain, then randomly says two thirds of the way through the movie that he wants to work with mutants and admires them;
- Richard Nixon in the real world was famous for running things behind the scenes, in closed doors with Henry Kissinger, he was the man in charge, much like JFK and LBJ before him. In the movie, we see a Nixon who is obedient to his advisers, he is called Richard Nixon but really he's based on the modern presidential style of George W. Bush and Barack H. Obama of ruling by committee;
- At the end of the movie, super-terrorist Magneto has gone free with help from Xavier, Washington is heavily damaged, there was an assassination attempt on the president and his staff, and we're told that an era of human-mutant peace is beginning;
- The period doesn't work because 1973 doesn't fit the movie's narrative. In the movie, this is supposed to represent the end of pain, Xavier accepts that he's a mutant, young Magneto goes free, and Mystique is redeemed. However, in real America, the pain not only continued but got worse. Nixon was impeached, the oil shocks happened, Watergate happened, the fighting in Vietnam actually continued until 1975 (The Paris Peace accords were actually rescinded on January 4th 1974), crime in America skyrocketed, unemployment skyrocketed, inflation skyrocketed, ... as such the movie's happy mood of conclusiveness at the end is anti-historical.