The Batman Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Superhero 101]

Have a qq after watching the movie did Riddler know Bruce was Batman or was he just jealous of how Bruce was favored for being a orphan I kind of dozed off in the interrogation scene?

 

[antsman41]

Have a qq after watching the movie did Riddler know Bruce was Batman or was he just jealous of how Bruce was favored for being a orphan I kind of dozed off in the interrogation scene?

Doesn't know... that's why it was so neat watching Pattinson weigh out his interrogation with Nashton. He saw the camera and let Riddler prove he didn't know, otherwise he would have played his hand showing his identity.

 

[Superhero 101]

Ok thought so

 

[BatLobster]

There's an argument to be made that in a meta-sense this is a movie about the toxicity of superhero/Batman fandom that is primarily interested in it as a power fantasy of rage and violence, rather than something constructive and heroic. Some big Magnum Force energy to Reeves and Craig's screenplay.

Don't think that is (fully) intentional but it's an interesting subtext to mull over.

I think it's a valid read on it, whether intentional or not. Of course, TDK also had misguided Batman copycats with guns as well, so I think it's not the first time that meta-angle has been present to a degree.

But this film definitely feels very "2022" in terms of the whole incel, mass shooter thing.

While I agree its maybe not made as explicit as it could be - I feel like it is trying very hard to largely avoid expressing themes through dialogue apart from Battinson's narration in that wonderfully theatrical manner the TDK trilogy had - but I'm not sure it is so much about how Bruce wouldn't have helped those people earlier in the film so much as it is the start of him making helping people his focus.

It is pretty clear to me that he has first and foremost been going around beating the **** out of street thugs. He clearly hasn't been targeting the Falcone's of the world, he's trapped in his trauma and rewriting it every night by interceding in similar crimes. He doesn't have as defined a mission as Bale's Batman did for instance, even though he's clearly telling himself he does.

Just my read on it anyway.

I think that's totally fair, and probably what the film is going for. I guess I just feel like...well, Batman is thrust into a situation where the city is facing a disaster unlike anything he's dealt with. Of course he's going to try to save people if he's there and he can. I actually can't believe I'm going to say this...but I think even the first Amazing Spider-Man movie more clearly illustrated the type of "vigilante to hero" transition this film was going for.

I can respect a movie trying to be subtle, but when it comes to certain things I sometimes want to see the point hammered home.

 

[dhandler01]

I feel like Edward Nashton precured that location, after getting his idea to take down Gotham's elite... to benefit his plan.

Also, since I didn't comment on it last night. I really enjoyed when he got weird and heightened. The unstableness was a nice counter-balance to his mechanicalness. It was a perfect rounding out of a Zodiac/BTK meets current day School Shooters. They're all pent up man-babies who can't handle their emotions and usually spiral out after bottling up their anger from one bad day. Thinking they deserve more or are "the answer" to something they don't truly understand.

Agreed he chose that spot for that reason.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

The Hush reference was totally there as a red herring for comic fans to think that maybe Riddler would turn out to be Elliot's son and therefore a Hush hybrid, right? Thought that was clever.

 

[Snow Queen]

The Hush reference was totally there as a red herring for comic fans to think that maybe Riddler would turn out to be Elliot's son and therefore a Hush hybrid, right? Thought that was clever.

Oh that's interesting, I didn't read it that way. When it came up, I was curious whether it was just a cute Easter egg or if maybe Reeves was setting up a different take on the character as the son of the murdered reporter and that starts his vendetta against Bruce. I think it could be interesting given he'll likely be stepping up as a more traditional public Bruce at some point (hey, city needs some financial help and Reál did mention philanthropy), but probably a bit too retread-y with the sins of the father angle already being present here.

 

[dhandler01]

The Hush reference was totally there as a red herring for comic fans to think that maybe Riddler would turn out to be Elliot's son and therefore a Hush hybrid, right? Thought that was clever.

That is how I took it...a way to screw with those that get the reference.

 

[antsman41]

Also, how great was [Martinez], we all were joking about him when the Funeral scene released... but he's easily my new favorite GCPD cop. They way he played off of Batman in Riddler's hideout, contrasting his earlier interaction at the Mayor's penthouse.

He's someone we really haven't had since maybe the early 2000's comics by Rucka or during the late 90's.

This guy better be in the show/future films.

 

[The Caped Knight]

Have a qq after watching the movie did Riddler know Bruce was Batman or was he just jealous of how Bruce was favored for being a orphan I kind of dozed off in the interrogation scene?

Edward seems obsessed with Bruce Wayne being the spotlight of attention by Gotham City as The poor orphan boy. He doesn't know that Bruce is Batman.

He's projected himself as a partner to Batman since they uncovered the truth of Gotham City corruption. He credit that the persona of Batman inspired him to become The Riddler.

 

[Rick190293]

Isn't Kenzie the moustache with broken nose cop? Lol

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Also, how great was McKenzie(?) We all were joking about him when the Funeral scene released... but he's easily my new favorite GCPD cop. They way he played off of Batman in Riddler's hideout, contrasting his earlier interaction at the Mayor's penthouse.

He's someone we really haven't had since maybe the early 2000's comics by Rucka or during the late 90's.

This guy better be in the show/future films.

Wasn't McKenzie the mustache with the broken nose? I know who you mean though, I loved him too! He was like all the goofy cops from the Nolan movies rolled into one weirdly adorable man.

 

[The Caped Knight]

The Hush reference was totally there as a red herring for comic fans to think that maybe Riddler would turn out to be Elliot's son and therefore a Hush hybrid, right? Thought that was clever.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Tubeofboom]

Where is 'that' moment though? Is it when he stops Selena from killing Falcone? I know we have the moment of the Riddler goon saying "I'm vengeance". I get the signficance. But is that where Batman fully realizes it? Is it before then?

This is where I think I'm struggling, but want to see how it tracks for me when I see it again. I think we see that Bruce already has heroic instincts. He has a no-gun rule established already. The way he saves the kid at the funeral.

At no point in the film did I think Batman wouldn't try to save innocent people if he could. The flare moment is a beautiful bit of visual poetry that conveys the idea, so I get it, but I feel like the movie is lacking that real moment of clarity where Bruce is making a conscious decision to transition from vigilante to hero with a bigger purpose. He just tells us via voiceover. It's there, but I think the arc is maybe a bit muddier than I would've liked.

This is something that I think both TDK and TDKR handle really well. There are clear moments where a pivotal choice is made that rounds out the character journey. Batman chooses to take the fall for Dent. Bruce chooses to make the climb without a rope and embrace fear again. They're just really big moments that you really feel, that clearly demonstrate the character transitioning-- either his purpose as Batman, or emotionally as Bruce. I understood Batman to be acting in character with the Batman I know here in the 3rd act, but that was inferred more from my outside knowledge of the character vs. something that I felt was clearly earned in this story.

That's just my initial impression though. I'm really hoping a second viewing irons this out for me, because that would pretty much take me from really liking to loving it.

I don’t mean to butt in, but I think that moment is pretty much when the riddler goon is unmasked and says “I’m vengeance”. At that point it seems Bruce comes to a realization of sorts that being “vengeance” wasn’t the path he should take to make a real difference. After all, the riddler came about because of him being Batman, and the goons came about due to riddler. Seems like a trickling down effect which all stems from Batman operating the way he did.

Not sure if that makes complete sense or if it’s accurate, but it’s what I felt when watching and thinking more about the film.

Edit: Wanted to mention that Riddler obviously stems from the Gotham renewal situation and his experiences while in the orphan home, but his methods and persona seemingly influenced by Bats.

 

[BatLobster]

I don’t mean to butt in, but I think that moment is pretty much when the riddler goon is unmasked and says “I’m vengeance”. At that point it seems Bruce comes to a realization of sorts that being “vengeance” wasn’t the path he should take to make a real difference. After all, the riddler came about because of him being Batman, and the goons came about due to riddler. Seems like a trickling down effect which all stems from Batman operating the way he did.

Not sure if that makes complete sense or if it’s accurate, but it’s what I felt when watching and thinking more about the film.

Edit: Wanted to mention that Riddler obviously stems from the Gotham renewal situation and his experiences while in the orphan home, but his methods and persona seemingly influenced by Bats.

I think you're probably right, I have to see how that moment hits me on my next watch. I got the idea behind it, but I also am straining to connect his prior emotional beat with Alfred, which felt important, to that. It feels like two separate threads that don't quite merge, for me.

And you're more than free to butt in, that's what a discussion forum is for!

 

[antsman41]

****, Martinez... I was combining the two names.

 

[Tubeofboom]

I think you're probably right, I have to see how that moment hits me on my next watch. I got the idea behind it, but I also am straining to connect his prior emotional beat with Alfred, which felt important, to that. It feels like two separate threads that don't quite merge, for me.

And you're more than free to butt in, that's what a discussion forum is for!

That’s fair. I’ll be watching it again in about five hours, so I’ll try and pay attention to that transition a bit more.

 

[moviedoors]

Glad that scene was cut even though I'm excited to see it. The idea of Riddler possibly being a Batman copycat being made explicit before the confrontation in Arkham would take away from that scene and Joker's little cameo at the end would be less impactful if he already had a whole scene.

Plus, a scene where Batman just visits Joker in Arkham to have a chat even if its plot relevant feels a lot more artificial and sequel bait-y to me. Obviously the scene itself still is but Riddler making a new friend after Batman's rejection feels like it has some substance for his arc.

I also glad that the earlier scene is not there because it would have hung over the rest of the movie. The audience would be waiting for him to show up again or figure directly in the plot. It would've unbalanced the movie. When Gil decides to blow-up rather than rat out someone worse, you don't want the audience thinking he could be talking about the Joker.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Can we talk about what a good, coked out (err, dropped out - the drops are so clearly there so it can have drug use without getting an R) scumbag performance Sarsgaard gave? Such an excellent, underrated actor.

 

[BatLobster]

Can we talk about what a good, coked out (err, dropped out - the drops are so clearly there so it can have drug use without getting an R) scumbag performance Sarsgaard gave? Such an excellent, underrated actor.

He was one of my favorite parts of the movie. His big scene was probably my favorite sequence of the whole film.

 

[moviedoors]

I don’t mean to butt in, but I think that moment is pretty much when the riddler goon is unmasked and says “I’m vengeance”. At that point it seems Bruce comes to a realization of sorts that being “vengeance” wasn’t the path he should take to make a real difference. After all, the riddler came about because of him being Batman, and the goons came about due to riddler. Seems like a trickling down effect which all stems from Batman operating the way he did.

Not sure if that makes complete sense or if it’s accurate, but it’s what I felt when watching and thinking more about the film.

Edit: Wanted to mention that Riddler obviously stems from the Gotham renewal situation and his experiences while in the orphan home, but his methods and persona seemingly influenced by Bats.

This is exactly the moment where it all comes together for Bruce (and for me as a viewer). That's when he knows this whole Batman thing can't be about feeding his rage while in a death-wish downward spiral, that acting out in that way wasn't just poisoning him but the rest of Gotham.

I think it's a beautiful arc for this character and a canny way of not doing an origin story but still telling a story about a character who grows and changes.

 

[spideyfan77]

Two things:

1. Give me more narration by Batman. Like I wanted the whole movie narrated instead of beginning and end. Hope the next movie has that.

2. I hope he still keeps that fear and vengeance side of him that he had throughout the movie (especially beginning). Like yeah he can still be hopeful to the city in a way.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

This is exactly the moment where it all comes together for Bruce (and for me as a viewer). That's when he knows this whole Batman thing can't be about feeding his rage while in a death-wish downward spiral, that acting out in that way wasn't just poisoning him but the rest of Gotham.

I think it's a beautiful arc for this character and a canny way of not doing an origin story but still telling a story about a character who grows and changes.

My issue is that it will go over most everyone's heads because it wasn't really fleshed out that much. And in a film where everything, even small stuff, is massively fleshed out - makes it all the more easy to not see it.

 

[BatLobster]

My issue is that it will go over most everyone's heads because it wasn't really fleshed out that much. And in a film where everything, even small stuff, is massively fleshed out - makes it all the more easy to not see it.

Just off the top of my head. I wonder if there's a version of this where we find out Thomas did something bad, out of vengeance. Maybe in a white collar sense, but like...suppose he tried to financially destroy a business partner who had betrayed him, and then somehow that led to his undoing. That way, what Bruce learns about his family along the way ties into him growing beyond vengeance. I'm not a screenwriter, always easier said than done to suggest an idea and to make it work so I'm not saying that's the best version. But I can't shake the feeling that Bruce's arc needed a little tidying up, in some way, at least to have the full impact that I think it was going for.

I guess that's sorrrta there, but again...it turns out he really was just trying to protect Martha.

 

[moviedoors]

My issue is that it will go over most everyone's heads because it wasn't really fleshed out that much. And in a film where everything, even small stuff, is massively fleshed out - makes it all the more easy to not see it.

I don't know, I honestly feel it's what the whole movie has been building towards.