The Batman Spoiler Discussion Thread

[AndyTrevino]

*No SYMPATHETIC Joker origin please. I trust Reeves but I really don't want another sympathetic Joker.

I'd rather he seem evil from the start.

 

[OtherwiseKnownAs]

I think there's a good chance Stanley Merkel will become Joker in the GCPD show.

Im tried of people being scared to give Joker a origin.

What do you mean scared? Both the Burton and the Phoenix Joker’s have had origins. The most famous Joker comic of all time is about his “origins”. It’s not being “scared” to give him an origin. It’s just that there’s no reason for it to be there. We as the audience don’t need to see why this guy is the way he is. He exists to be the antithesis to Batman. Maybe he was a good guy, maybe he was a bad guy. It’s irrelevant to who he becomes.

 

[OtherwiseKnownAs]

Joker 2019 was ambiguous.

Batman 1989 Jack Naiper was already a scumbag and unhinged.

Killing Joke has Ben retconed by the three joker story's for some reason to being insane from the start and abusive.

But they’re still origins, regardless of who he was before, or if the story got retconned. He even got an origin in BTAS. No one is afraid of giving him an origin, just most realize its not relevant to his character.

I wanna see a Joker origin that actually has the balls to have the man before Joker be a good person.

It would contrast Batman so well.

One bad day made a good man choose to turn into a monster.

One bad made a good man choose to turn into a hero.

You literally just described the plot and theme of the Killing Joke.

Joker may think what came before it irrelevant but he's insane and delusional.

It's important for Joker himself not to give a **** about who he was but I don't think the audience needs to be kept in the dark about it.

It can work like it did for The Dark Knight of course but I've seen that already.

If you want a sympathetic character gone bad, go to Harvey Dent. Go to Victor Fries. There’s a multitude of sympathetic villain characters to go to, before we have to turn Joker into one too.

 

[BMW 224]

But they’re still origins, regardless of who he was before, or if the story got retconned. He even got an origin in BTAS. No one is afraid of giving him an origin, just most realize its not relevant to his character.



You literally just described the plot and theme of the Killing Joke.



If you want a sympathetic character gone bad, go to Harvey Dent. Go to Victor Fries. There’s a multitude of sympathetic villain characters to go to, before we have to turn Joker into one too.

The killing Joke theme hasn't really been adapted for the big screen though.

Batman and Joker's contrast hasn't been big part of there relationship in live action.


Also I don't want Joker to be a "sympathic character gone bad"

I want a normal sane realtivey good person to chose to become bad after one tragedy.

It proves his one bad day philosophy to be bull**** which is something that the movies haven't really shown.

To many people think Joker is right when he says things like that.


Use the origin to show how ****ed up Joker really is.

 

[RokMeAmadeus]

*No SYMPATHETIC Joker origin please. I trust Reeves but I really don't want another sympathetic Joker.

I'd rather he seem evil from the start.

This >>>>>>>>>>>>>

I wanna see a Joker origin that actually has the balls to have the man before Joker be a good person.

It would contrast Batman so well.

One bad day made a good man choose to turn into a monster.

One bad made a good man choose to turn into a hero.

Any day of the week.

And if you want a contrast, why not a bad man who turns into a monster?

If he's Merkel AND Joker I'd rather his cop era be more of a Stansfield in The Professional sort of thing.

 

[BMW 224]

This >>>>>>>>>>>>>



Any day of the week.

And if you want a contrast, why not a bad man who turns into a monster?

If he's Merkel AND Joker I'd rather his cop era be more of a Stansfield in The Professional sort of thing.

That would be cool too.

 

[OtherwiseKnownAs]

The killing Joke theme hasn't really been adapted for the big screen though.

Batman and Joker's contrast hasn't been big part of there relationship in live action.

Yes, yes it was. That was the whole conflict in The Dark Knight.

Also I don't want Joker to be a "sympathic character gone bad"

I want a normal sane realtivey good person to chose to become bad after one tragedy.

Right, thus making the audience empathize with him.

It proves his one bad day philosophy to be bull**** which is something that the movies haven't really shown.

To many people think Joker is right when he says things like that.

That’s what the ferry scene in The Dark Knight was about.

 

[Boom]

"Sparse hair."

Hmm.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Maybe not, but it just makes too much sense. Seeing Stanley Merkel get corrupted by the city over the course of an entire season and the eventual downfall of his character leading to him becoming Joker and committing a terrorist act, getting locked up in Arkham

But we haven't seen a single thing revolving around such a character. I doubt "Stanley Merkel" exists.

 

[AndyTrevino]

Joker should be evil incarnate. In a world where someone could potentially be born evil, The Joker should not be a normal guy who went insane from a traumatic experience.

Either make him evil from the start or just don't show anything.

 

[shauner111]

I’m not a fan of Killing Joke. Good guy turns into evil villain has been done to death, I don’t think Joker should fall into that category. Hidden name and face falls into chemicals is a cool enough origin. Keeps the mystery intact. Red Hood.

 

[flygerr5]

How ‘Project Power’ Writer Mattson Tomlin Made It in Hollywood – The Hollywood Reporter

Mattson Tomlin when asked how he got the Batman job "I wish I could say but it’s still a crazy secret. There are spoilers in that story."



At the 17:44 minute mark he is asked about how he got the job, and reiterates that the story is a spoiler for the film.

What could he mean by this? Mattson Tomlin has a script named "KILL THE LEOPARD" which is literally a Batman story in his first year of crime fighting. Except the Batman is called The Leopard and the Joker is called Red Rabbit.

We know the GCPD show will go back one year before the events of the film to Batman's first year, just like Tomlin's script. The script also deals a lot with how the public views the vigilante (Batman) and how some people are against him. The Red Rabbit character, who is supposed to be Joker, is locked up in an Asylum, just like Barry's Joker at the end of the film.

It's possible that Matt Reeves was inspired by some of the elements of Tomlin's script such as the use of Joker. Maybe that is why Tomlin had his writing credit wiped off, because he spent most of his time developing Barry's Joker and the events of the GCPD series with Matt Reeves. It's possible they created a 'series bible' together for Joe Barton, the showrunner.

This is all just me theorizing. I don't think it's a coincidence that Mattson keeps saying the story of how he got the job is a spoiler, and that he literally has a Batman/Joker script that could be reworked and easily applied to this universe. What do you guys think?

 

[Mindreaper21]

I seriously hate the chemicals origin. Have him either be albino or don’t even explain why his skin is like that. No good boy turned evil. No abuse origin. I don’t want to sympathize with him at all. I want Joker to live inside people’s nightmares. Just give me the clown so evil you’d think he’s a demon in human flesh.

 

[AndyTrevino]

I seriously hate the chemicals origin. Have him either be albino or don’t even explain why his skin is like that. No good boy turned evil. No abuse origin. I don’t want to sympathize with him at all. I want Joker to live inside people’s nightmares. Just give me the clown so evil you’d think he’s a demon in human flesh.

The chemicals don't have to make you sympathize with him if they imply he was already evil

 

[shauner111]

I seriously hate the chemicals origin. Have him either be albino or don’t even explain why his skin is like that. No good boy turned evil. No abuse origin. I don’t want to sympathize with him at all. I want Joker to live inside people’s nightmares. Just give me the clown so evil you’d think he’s a demon in human flesh.

Which can be achieved with chemicals.

 

[Mani-Man]

If we get the Joker, i dont need a Origin or explenation for his condition at all.
I just want the white skin and green hair etc being there be a mystery and not just facepaint.

You could hint at chemicals for sure, but nothing really clear...that is what makes the Joker still such a great mystery.

 

[Gothamsknight]

The Joker does NOT need a full origin. I get that people want "different" but the Joker is a character that has been established as being the essence of evil in a sense should remain in tact. Whenever you see "age: Unknow" or "real name: unknown", it just adds to the mystery of where this guy caem from. Look, I love The Killing Joke, but even that has been tackled in a sense in TDK with the Jokers multiple backstories, and even in it's own way in Joker.

 

[BMW 224]

Yes, yes it was. That was the whole conflict in The Dark Knight.



Right, thus making the audience empathize with him.



That’s what the ferry scene in The Dark Knight was about.

I've changed my mind now.

I don't see how it's possible to give him a orgin with being a sane and normal man and not undercut Joker by having people sympathize with him.

You are right all along.

Joker's past should be a mystery.

 

[Boom]

I'm largely indifferent to Joker origins. I'd prefer not having one at all, but it's whatever. In recent years I'm more interested in letting these filmmakers tell their stories (for better or worse).

 

[Mindreaper21]

Which can be achieved with chemicals.

The chemicals don't have to make you sympathize with him if they imply he was already evil

Are chemicals even really that necessary? I don’t believe so. That origin is overrated to me. I would rather Joker just be born with extremely pale uneven skin and dyes his hair. Or just don’t even touch his real origin at all. Joker is a lot scarier if you don’t know how he got that way. Just like a monster story.

Give me a scene where someone asks Joker how did his skin get so pale and have Joker reply “you have to drink a lot of bleach. Maybe you should give it a try” or “this is what you look like when you have no soul”. Just a really dark joke about it and move on.

 

[OtherwiseKnownAs]

I kinda want to get back to “Showman” Joker. I kinda miss when Joker was funny on purpose.

 

[shauner111]

Are chemicals even really that necessary? I don’t believe so. That origin is overrated to me. I would rather Joker just be born with extremely pale uneven skin and dyes his hair. Or just don’t even touch his real origin at all. Joker is a lot scarier if you don’t know how he got that way. Just like a monster story.

Give me a scene where someone asks Joker how did his skin get so pale and have Joker reply “you have to drink a lot of bleach. Maybe you should give it a try” or “this is what you look like when you have no soul”. Just a really dark joke about it and move on.

I’m good with all this too. But I like the mysterious red hooded criminal falling into a vat of chemicals and disappearing. Who was he? is still a question everybody would ask.

 

[Mindreaper21]

I’m good with all this too. But I like the mysterious red hooded criminal falling into a vat of chemicals and disappearing. Who was he? is still a question everybody would ask.

You know what I would like more? If someone wrote a story explaining how that was all a lie. That the guy in the red hood wasn’t Joker, but his first victim that connected him with Batman. Batman never saw his face. Joker could have stood there after Batman left watching that guy’s body disintegrate and thought to himself “you know what would be funny? If I said that Batman dropped me into these chemicals and made me look like this”. That seems more like something Joker would do.

 

[flygerr5]

I don't get why a lot of you are against the concept of Barry starting out as Merkel in the GCPD series and turning into the Joker. Maybe he'll have a connection to the drops, maybe he'll be a corrupt cop paid off by Falcone or Penguin and working drugs. I understand the idea that Joker should remain a mystery, but with an incredibly POV driven and character focused director like Matt Reeves, I'd be open to see that take on Merkel/Joker.

I just think there's so much potential there for Keoghan as an actor.

 

[AndyTrevino]

I don't get why a lot of you are against the concept of Barry starting out as Merkel in the GCPD series and turning into the Joker. Maybe he'll have a connection to the drops, maybe he'll be a corrupt cop paid off by Falcone or Penguin and working drugs. I understand the idea that Joker should remain a mystery, but with an incredibly POV driven and character focused director like Matt Reeves, I'd be open to see that take on Merkel/Joker.

I just think there's so much potential there for Keoghan as an actor.

If they do it then I'll do my best to hop on board and go with it.