The Batman Spoiler Discussion Thread

[chintai80]

Batman killing VS a thug getting caught in the crossfire are two very different things imo. It's not the same thing that we've seen with other iterations (Keaton blowing people up, Bale refusing to save people, Affleck gunning people in the batplane, etc). Is it possible that people died during a confrontation with Batman? Yes. I wouldn't label that as murder though.

batman was basically doing this in the 3rd act with those riddler goons:

he's not actively killing the, but he's dodging to protect himself and essentially they end up killing themselves or each other.
his no kill rule is still intact.

though i think some people died during the car chase with penguin, when that tanker truck blew up in the fireball. lol.

 

[BatsAndNights]

So, I’ve seen some heated arguments about whether Batman killed anybody in that movie.

There’s a few specific moments in the last fight where he lets a few thugs get shot in the crossfire. I didn’t get a great look, but we’re those explicitly supposed to be shoulder shots? Also, in the Riddler’s stream earlier, did his followers mention bringing any armor? Is the idea that Batman saw there that they’d be armored up and was cutting lose on them a little more because he knew they could live?

Everyone making this seemed to acknowledge the no kill rule so I’m just curious if these are assumptions Reeves wanted us to make.

You say a few specific moments, but I'm pretty sure it only happens with one. And when it does, after the goon falls the movie immediately cuts to a different shot showing him fall but trying to reach at the line that's attached to his harness as he falls, before he gives up. Also the smoke does look like he got shot in the shoulder, or maybe even the gun itself

It does admittedly look a little weird, but I'd be very surprised if it was Reeves' intention for that goon to have been killed

 

[Matt Parker]

You say a few specific moments, but I'm pretty sure it only happens with one. And when it does, after the goon falls the movie immediately cuts to a different shot showing him fall but trying to reach at the line that's attached to his harness as he falls, before he gives up. Also the smoke does look like he got shot in the shoulder, or maybe even the gun itselfView attachment 53799

It does admittedly look a little weird, but I'd be very surprised if it was Reeves' intention for that goon to have been killed

its a little weird, but I think you’re right, though I can’t tell if he’s reaching for the rope or if his arms are flailing.

il probably overthinking this moment. BvS was so overt and insane about it that I’m overly sensitive now, haha. Either way, Batman was clearly just trying to disarm the one thug and I don’t think he even intentionally made the gun go off.

 

[BatsAndNights]

its a little weird, but I think you’re right, though I can’t tell if he’s reaching for the rope or if his arms are flailing.

il probably overthinking this moment. BvS was so overt and insane about it that I’m overly sensitive now, haha. Either way, Batman was clearly just trying to disarm the one thug and I don’t think he even intentionally made the gun go off.

I think the reason I'm tempted to say he is trying to reach for the rope is because of the shot's existence in the first place. The entire movie, every shot feels deliberate and there for a reason. I don't think Matt would put this shot in if it wasn't for a reason. If he didn't care about showing that Batman doesn't kill, that shot of the goon dangling would not exist in the movie. I'm almost certain that's what Matt's intention is here

 

[Matt Parker]

I think the reason I'm tempted to say he is trying to reach for the rope is because of the shot's existence in the first place. The entire movie, every shot feels deliberate and there for a reason. I don't think Matt would put this shot in if it wasn't for a reason. If he didn't care about showing that Batman doesn't kill, that shot of the goon dangling would not exist in the movie. I'm almost certain that's what Matt's intention is here

Watching it against, his arms are reaching for the rope at the very beginning of the shot and then as soon as it goes slack, the impact valses him to go limp. I think you’re right.

Also, watching it super slowed down, definitely a shoulder shot. The smoke is right around his right shoulder, which would certainly be non lethal. So that dude is fine. It’s just edited kinda weirdly, but that was choice made to keep the momentum of the action scene going.

Reeves also does something very smart with this movie in that he sets up a very consistent internal logic as far as how durable people are.

for example, I know some folks have argued that people are killed in the car crash, but I don’t think so. I think the shot of the Penguin surviving his far being flipped end over end like five times is there to display that the film operates on heightened comic book logic in terms of physics. Plus, the explosion that happens is limited to the cargo of the truck, not the cab. So I assume that no one died unless they explicitly showed us.

Similarly, Bella Real is shot in the chest and is shown to be fine later. I think those moments are partially there to give Reeves the ability to have Batman do all these cool, Arkham game takedowns without it seeming like he’s seriously injuring or crippling people.

It might sound like I’m making excuses for the movie (maybe I am) but I think the internal logic of the action is pretty consistent.

 

[Luke995]

I'm thiking about the sequel and I'm wondering...
How will be the post-flood?

I don't think it will be not even closely a 1:1 with No Man's Land, but at the same time BB ending and the escalation in TDK looks pretty similar to post-TB...

Looking at the ending, it's almost sure we'll see:

- Speculators on the reconstruction (and Bruce using his Wayne-persona to stop them)
- Gangs war with the rising of Penguin (and maybe a free Maroni)
- Rise of poverty, anger, craziness and freaks all over the city

But... what else?
I think it's the right moment for Harvey Dent as new DA, but how can they differentiate from TDK?
We'll see something similar to The Long Halloween?

And what kind of villain?
A killer again? A kidnapper like Buffalo Bill? Some secret organization like the Owls or someone hiding in the dark like Hugo Strange?

Some ideas for the references...



Callaghan saga as recurrent reference for Batman and villains (until now, we know TB was inspired to the similar The French Connection...).



The Untouchables, if they go to the route of gangs war / Bats-Gordon-Dent deal / trial to Penguin or Maroni.



Blue Velvet for a plot with Hugo Strange / Mad Hatter / Scarecrow.



Escape from New York for the post-flood Gotham.
Or Blade Runner and Blade Runner 2049 could be fantastic references.

Or... The Silence of the lambs / Manhunter for a Joker/Lecter role.

Anyway, what we know - seeing GCPD and Penguin series' references too - is that Reeves is a huge fan of the New Hollywood and noir or pulp cinema from 70s - 80s - 90s.

Sooooo... We'll enjoy anyway

 

[FunkMiller]

he's not actively killing the, but he's dodging to protect himself and essentially they end up killing themselves or each other.
his no kill rule is still intact.

though i think some people died during the car chase with penguin, when that tanker truck blew up in the fireball. lol.

I think the important thing to remember about the No-Kill Rule is that Batman will not actively take the life of anyone, because of what that would do to him.

I doubt he sheds many tears when evil criminals actually die, though.

Folks seem to get confused on that point. Batman isn't a pacifist, or someone who wants to save every human life. He wants to stop innocent people dying, and never wants to held directly responsible for the death of another person, as that sends him down a dark path he'll never recover from.

 

[WatchProtect]

As much as I feel sort of mundanly about Hugo Strange, as a character based off the ending of this film, I think he would be a pretty obvious route to go. Bruce probably needs a good therapist to work through his struggles and issues; Hugo fits that bill.

And then I wanna see Leslie Thompkins get her due on the big screen.

 

[WatchProtect]

You know what..I think having Leslie be Martha's therapist during her short stints in Arkham would be a pretty natural way to bring her in.

She can shed more light on Bruce's parents, she can feel an organic pull to Bruce Wayne because she feels partly responsible about what he's going through. Maybe he reveals his identity to her and she becomes sort of like the Lucias Fox of this trilogy.

 

[BatsAndNights]

I'm thiking about the sequel and I'm wondering...
How will be the post-flood?

I don't think it will be not even closely a 1:1 with No Man's Land, but at the same time BB ending and the escalation in TDK looks pretty similar to post-TB...

Reconstruction, yes, No Man's Land no.

The fact that Batman even uses a motorcycle after the movie, to me, implies the damage isn't so severe that Gotham is now uninhabitable. At worst, I reckon it'll be just one area of the city which has been broken beyond repair but the rest of the city is fine, ala Arkham City

 

[BatLobster]

Like those ideas @WatchProtect. Leslie would be a great addition for this series.

I think Hugo, while seeming mundane on paper, could be amazing in a film simply by virtue of casting a great actor in the role. Who that is, not sure. So many options. But no mask to work around. Could be an incredible role for someone to sink their teeth into.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Hugo Strange feels like a non-entity people want mostly because he's damn near the last recognizable villain the movies haven't used that but the fact he's such a blank slate makes him exciting. Reeves could do basically anything with him.

I do like Hugo in Prey though. Stupid, stupid, wonderful Prey.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I find Hugo to be deeply unsettling as a character, which would be perfect for this world. Just gotta find the right time and place to introduce him. If he fits whatever story Reeves is cooking up of course.

 

[flygerr5]

You know what..I think having Leslie be Martha's therapist during her short stints in Arkham would be a pretty natural way to bring her in.

She can shed more light on Bruce's parents, she can feel an organic pull to Bruce Wayne because she feels partly responsible about what he's going through. Maybe he reveals his identity to her and she becomes sort of like the Lucias Fox of this trilogy.

Now that I think about it, it seems possible we could get more information on Martha and her time at Arkham in the Arkham show.

I personally hope the Arkham show starts off with a cold open and takes us back to a homicide crime scene of Joker victims and seeing a year one Batman investigating with Gordon, and then showing how Batman apprehends Joker and sends him to Arkham. That could be a brilliant first episode. And you'd only have to get Rob and Jeffrey to sign on as guest stars

 

[titansupes]

If they did Strange-- someone right up Reeves's alley, I think-- do they change the last name? Already got a Dr. Strange in CBM world...

 

[BatsAndNights]

If they did Strange-- someone right up Reeves's alley, I think-- do they change the last name? Already got a Dr. Strange in CBM world...

I don't see why he would. He's already proven via calling Riddler Edward Nashton that he has a preference for the comic roots of these characters so I don't see him changing the name. The only major difference I saw in terms of people's names in this movie was just the pronunciation of Falcone, which I think Matt just did because that pronunciation flowed better with the dialogue than adding the "ay" on the end

 

[Captain Tired]

Even sitting in the cinema, I wondered if the sustained mispronunciation of Falcone was to make that 'rat with wings' riddle go down more smoothly lol. If that is the case, I don't think it was necessary tbh. People would have still got it.

 

[BatsAndNights]

Even sitting in the cinema, I wondered if the sustained mispronunciation of Falcone was to make that 'rat with wings' riddle go down more smoothly lol. If that is the case, I don't think it was necessary tbh. People would have still got it.

Who knows, it could've even been something to do with how Rob said it or something. His lack of a dialect coach might have meant the Falcon pronunciation sounded better, so they just ran with that

 

[Gothamsknight]

If they did Strange-- someone right up Reeves's alley, I think-- do they change the last name? Already got a Dr. Strange in CBM world...

I don't think there'd be a need for that honestly. Most people wouldn't get confused.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Even sitting in the cinema, I wondered if the sustained mispronunciation of Falcone was to make that 'rat with wings' riddle go down more smoothly lol. If that is the case, I don't think it was necessary tbh. People would have still got it.

Haven't they pronounced it as such in a bunch of adaptations before? For some reason I thought Begins was actually the outlier with its pronunciation.

 

[DKDetective]

Haven't they pronounced it as such in a bunch of adaptations before? For some reason I thought Begins was actually the outlier with its pronunciation.

Yeah, the pronunciation didn't stand out to me as wrong. It reminded me of the pronunciation of Corleone in The Godfather films. When they are in Italy, it is "Corleon-eh", but the Americanized pronunciation is "Corleon", dropping the e at the end.

 

[DKDetective]

Alternate ending.

I hate to admit that being aware of that wipeout took me out of the movie for a split second during the final scene.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

Alternate ending.

When we say this version of Batman is 'grounded', we mean literally.

 

[dhandler01]

Yeah, the pronunciation didn't stand out to me as wrong. It reminded me of the pronunciation of Corleone in The Godfather films. When they are in Italy, it is "Corleon-eh", but the Americanized pronunciation is "Corleon", dropping the e at the end.

And the d-bag senator calls him Corle-ahn which is just insulting

 

[Luke995]

Anyone else noticed the shot, in the first Bruce's voiceover, of the Chicago Board Trade building from BB/TDK and the red/brown iron bridge from BB?

I smiled, it was like coming home.

In the ending monologue I think there's another little reference to Nolan: Bruce says something like "Things gonna go worse before they go better", like Alfred says to Bruce after Rachel's death.

I love the quotes and the references in this movie.
I don't think it's derivative or not-original, is respect for mythology and love for the genre and the characters.

In a way, it's a method similar to Tarantino in Kill Bill.