Age of Ultron The Black Widow Thread

[RedRose]

A ton of people as in perhaps WS fans and die hard WS/Natasha shippers? Clintasha fans belief that the arrow necklace means they're meant to be in AoU has far more tangible weight and I'm not betting on that either. Heck, Steve and Natasha have an actual multi-scene film long personal relationship on screen with tons of chemistry and I don't think they're happening.

So, I'm going to put Nat partially contributing to damaging WS's goggles during a life and death struggle - so he has to take them off in order to continue trying to kill them all - to the sometimes a cigar is just a cigar file.

I'm one of those who thinks there might be more to Clint and Natasha's relationship and I def like them as a couple but reading the Nat/Bucky analysis and Nat/Steve analysis (and even Nat/Bruce analyses) makes me agree with you 100%...everyone "sees" things that support their ship, even if it makes everyone else scratch their head. Its pretty funny and makes me question my own opinion (not that I see validity in these other pairings, just that it makes me question the validity I saw with the necklace).

 

[Minxie]

A ton of people as in perhaps WS fans and die hard WS/Natasha shippers?

Not at all, actually. It was something that I saw brought up in multiple posts when the movie came out by people analyzing the film on a metaphorical level, plenty of whom weren't thinking of BuckyNat. The Winter Soldier's mask being removed piece by piece like that had very obvious symbolic layers to it - He can "see" with the goggles gone and then start to "question" with the mask removed, and it's followed by his bank vault scene where the cracks are showing in his programming, because the man has started to emerge from beneath the programming - there's a reason why they didn't put him back in another mask for the last act of the movie. This is pretty standard film analysis. And so yes I'll reiterate, Natasha playing a role in that process is important.

 

[cherokeesam]

If Natasha had any kind of emotional connection to Bucky at all (however briefly) during their fight, then she most certainly wouldn't have hesitated to join Cap and Sam at the end of the movie in their hunt for him. But she showed no interest in that whatsoever. Not her monkey, not her circus.


The reason Bucky started regaining his memory was explained simply enough in CATWS: the longer he stays off ice, the quicker his memories return. Pierce ordered a stopgap memory wipe as a result. But at the end of the movie, Bucky is off HYDRA's grid and on his own and on the lam, and it's clear he's getting his memory and identity back the longer he stays away from HYDRA.

So no points awarded to Natasha/Bucky 'shipping at all. But if it makes you feel any better, the likelihood of Bucky having a surprise cameo in AOU just went up exponentially. It won't be just Steve trying to find Bucky --- there's now a *damn* good chance that Bucky is going to try to find Steve, too. I expect their paths to cross again far sooner than CA3.

 

[Minxie]

If Natasha had any kind of emotional connection to Bucky at all (however briefly) during their fight, then she most certainly wouldn't have hesitated to join Cap and Sam at the end of the movie in their hunt for him. But she showed no interest in that whatsoever. Not her monkey, not her circus.

Lol I keep emphasizing the symbolic nature of a connection that could be foreshadowing of something to come between them, which keeps getting overlooked for some reason? That doesn't mean I'm literally saying she'd started caring about him or whatever during the fight. Not at all. I don't even think she did, just that she knew how to read him, and knew what would piss him off enough to go chasing after her instead of going after a trapped and vulnerable Steve on that bus. >.> And anyway what's more important would be the effect she had on him, causing him to have a human moment. Like I'd bet anything he will come to recall their encounter quite vividly once some memories come back, because of the impression she made.

And her not dropping everything to go with Steve, instead of dealing with her own very significant personal issues that came up from her past going online, doesn't mean they've ruled out the possibility of her caring about Bucky in the future? That logic doesn't fly to me. I already said earlier that if she met him again later with his memories returning and seeing him struggling with that, that she would most likely want to reach out to him then. Until then she has absolutely no obligation to go chasing around the world looking for him, I wouldn't expect her to.

The reason Bucky started regaining his memory was explained simply enough in CATWS: the longer he stays off ice, the quicker his memories return. Pierce ordered a stopgap memory wipe as a result. But at the end of the movie, Bucky is off HYDRA's grid and on his own and on the lam, and it's clear he's getting his memory and identity back the longer he stays away from HYDRA.

Of course, but wasn't it also pretty clear that he returned from that causeway fight heavily triggered, his memories returning to him faster than normal? The scientists know that he remembers things after a while but they also noted this behavior there was unusual. And of course it's attributed to Steve. I don't think Nat made him remember things. Just that again, she could be someone who can get through to him in a meaningful way in the future - which is what I meant by it being important that she could figure him out in the heat of the combat, keep him distracted and catch him off guard as many times as she did.

 

[cherokeesam]

Sure, anything can happen in the future; but you're speculating about relationships that don't actually exist in the MCU, and you're banking on onscreen chemistry that remains absolutely unproven.

It just makes more sense to water the seeds of a relationship that *has* been planted, where the chemistry has already been shown to exist. Besides, bad girl-bad boy (as well as good girl-good boy) makes for a boring romance. Natasha's been dealing with cold-blooded killers all her life, and probably even dated more than a few. And none of them were ever right for her, obviously. I'd rather see her hook up with a knight in shining armor....the kind of guy who'll give her the respect and the security and the redemption she so richly deserves. There's only one guy who can give her all that.

 

[BoredGuy]

Watched TWS again last night

and even if the directors say there's a husband/wife thing going on, I don't see it, personally
it definitely came off entirely like a brother-sister thing to me (outside of the kiss obv.... so maybe like a step brother and sister who met as teenagers, lol)

IDK why, it just really grosses me out to think of Cap and Widow getting together

And also, to the people talkin smack on the Sharon/Steve relationship, Natasha outright says at the end of the film "call the nurse" and Cap more or less indicates he will, and Tasha says she's nice.

That pretty clearly sets up the relationship right there.
If Steve was suddenly with Nat in the next film, I, as well as anyone who was only following the films, would be very confused.

 

[Ghostcrow13]

Watched TWS again last night

and even if the directors say there's a husband/wife thing going on, I don't see it, personally
it definitely came off entirely like a brother-sister thing to me (outside of the kiss obv.... so maybe like a step brother and sister who met as teenagers, lol)

IDK why, it just really grosses me out to think of Cap and Widow getting together

And also, to the people talkin smack on the Sharon/Steve relationship, Natasha outright says at the end of the film "call the nurse" and Cap more or less indicates he will, and Tasha says she's nice.

That pretty clearly sets up the relationship right there.
If Steve was suddenly with Nat in the next film, I, as well as anyone who was only following the films, would be very confused.

They said work husband, not loving husband

 

[BoredGuy]

Regardless

 

[Ghostcrow13]

Yeah, i was saying the Russos agree with you, it isn't romantic

 

[kaijunexus]

You missed the part where Cap shields *Natasha* from the exploding Leviathan, when she could just as easily take shelter behind a car like Hawkeye, a few steps away? Cap singled her out for the chivalry play.

 

[Ghostcrow13]

Some of the posts in this thread remind me of this video

[YT]/watch?v=SsBvqDwVqwc[/YT]

 

[3dman27]

the clip won't play

 

[Ghostcrow13]

yeah didn't remove the youtube bit

 

[Moridin]

the clip won't play

Like Sams theories, then.

 

[Minxie]

Sure, anything can happen in the future; but you're speculating about relationships that don't actually exist in the MCU, and you're banking on onscreen chemistry that remains absolutely unproven.

It just makes more sense to water the seeds of a relationship that *has* been planted, where the chemistry has already been shown to exist. Besides, bad girl-bad boy (as well as good girl-good boy) makes for a boring romance. Natasha's been dealing with cold-blooded killers all her life, and probably even dated more than a few. And none of them were ever right for her, obviously. I'd rather see her hook up with a knight in shining armor....the kind of guy who'll give her the respect and the security and the redemption she so richly deserves. There's only one guy who can give her all that.

You realize that Bucky and Natasha together are literally the sappiest, most loving, romantic, adorably happy couple together, though? They spend all their time cuddling, forehead touching, dancing in the rain in front of the Eiffel Tower, twirling on rooftops in the snow, leaving roses for each other on their pilows, and just all around being ridiculously affectionate and content. The thing that makes them work is that because they are so comfortable with each other and see each other so clearly, they let their hard exteriors fall away and are completely themselves with each other. The notion that he wouldn't be exactly the kind of man she wants and deserves is laughable to me.
Case in point:

Spoiler

And honestly from the way some people talk about these movies, you'd think they have absolutely no imagination regarding what could come in the future? Like... a few years ago when we'd only ever seen Natasha in IM2 and Steve in Cap 1, if someone had said "oh I think those two could become friends or more" you'd have a chorus of people replying, "Ehh, I don't see it, they've never even talked." No one was even thinking about Steve/Nat seriously in Avengers either, everyone was certain they were going to give her Clint as a future love interest. A lot can change after just one movie. (and again, there's really no basis in the fear of Scarlett and Sebastian not having chemistry alright - two attractive actors who are that talented and love their roles as much as they do are absolutely going to have chemistry if they play love interests - and neither of them have failed to have chemistry with their love interests in past roles)

And lastly, consider also that she has this issue where she feels like she needs to live up to expectations when she's around Steve? She has to live up to an ideal because it means the world to her if someone like Steve accepts and respects her, after the life she's lived. Remember that face she made when Steve got angry with her on the Lemurian Star? She was beating herself up realizing she'd disappointed him. That makes for a solid element in a friendship with tones of brother/sister to it, it doesn't really lend itself to a romantic relationship. No matter how much Steve accepts her, and Natasha knowing now that he accepts her, she is still always going to feel that way, that she owes him, that she needs to be better around him.
Ergo, that's why someone like Bucky would work so well for her, but whatevaaaa.

 

[cherokeesam]

Watched TWS again last night

and even if the directors say there's a husband/wife thing going on, I don't see it, personally
it definitely came off entirely like a brother-sister thing to me (outside of the kiss obv.... so maybe like a step brother and sister who met as teenagers, lol)

IDK why, it just really grosses me out to think of Cap and Widow getting together

And also, to the people talkin smack on the Sharon/Steve relationship, Natasha outright says at the end of the film "call the nurse" and Cap more or less indicates he will, and Tasha says she's nice.

That pretty clearly sets up the relationship right there.
If Steve was suddenly with Nat in the next film, I, as well as anyone who was only following the films, would be very confused.

No. No, Steve *didn't* say he'll call Sharon. At all. That's where you're missing the subtext. Instead, he just smiles weakly, the smile disappears, he and Natasha exchange a deep meaningful look, and she impulsively leans in to kiss his cheek. He looks surprised, and their eyes lock again before she smiles and walks away.

It's the same game they've played all through the film:
Natasha: "Why don't you hook up with ________? She's a nice girl."
Steve: "<excuse>"

What, you've never heard of the Matchmaker Crush trope? Where someone is trying to set someone else up on a date(s), all the while trying to shield/deny their own feelings for each other?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MatchmakerCrush

Try Cyrano de Bergerac, or any of the myriad versions of that timeless tale (including Steve Martin's "Roxanne"). It'll help you grasp the concept better.

I take it, then, that neither you nor Loni Love remember seeing The Avengers? Okay. (Hint: it was even shown in the damn trailers for the movie.)

Like Sams theories, then.

Somebody made a smiley that shoots a bird, right....?

 

[BoredGuy]

No. No, Steve *didn't* say he'll call Sharon. At all. That's where you're missing the subtext. Instead, he just smiles weakly, the smile disappears, he and Natasha exchange a deep meaningful look, and she impulsively leans in to kiss his cheek. He looks surprised, and their eyes lock again before she smiles and walks away.
.
.
.
Try Cyrano de Bergerac, or any of the myriad versions of that timeless tale (including Steve Martin's "Roxanne"). It'll help you grasp the concept better.

whatever man
That's how you read it, good for you
It's not what I saw, hooray for me

The subtext I got was a mutual attraction, and possibly even a little bit of a crush by BW on Cap, but Cap acknowledging that while she is attractive physically and someone he can be friends with, she is most definitely not his type and they are too different to work as a couple, on top of the nearly brother and sister relationship they have going and Steve not wanting to change that, hence saying he wanted "a friend". And as for Nat, I think she just has too much respect for Cap to jeopardize their partnership. If you thought there was more in their little looks, that's like, your opinion man

I've had a similar situation myself, where there's been sexual tension with a platonic friend who was dating another friend of mine(think hawkeye) then when they were separated for a bit, things got even a bit more tense. There was plenty of flirting, her trying to set me up with her friends, and drunken "maybe we should just hook up"s. But because of how we felt about each other (like siblings), and the fact that I knew we were very different people who wouldn't work together in the long run, we decided not to do anything- despite the attraction- so as to not ruin the friendship or hurt her ex, who is still my friend and now her husband. Just because attraction exists doesn't mean a sexual relationship should or will.

that's the subtext I got out of it, but by all means, keep telling me how wrong my opinion is...

oh, and I've read Cyrano and seen Roxanne, don't get all *****ey, I grasp concepts just fine thanx

 

[TeeKay]

 

[kaijunexus]

 

[RedRose]

Hahaha this thread is awesome.

 

[Three_Inches]

Anyway... What/who would y'all like to see if and when we get a BW solo?

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

Well ..thats kind of tough...Hawkeye for sure...maybe Captain America....and Fury...lol...I know...its wishful thinking.

 

[coluanprime]

I don't think BW was pushing Steve away because she was in love with him. I think she understood that they could have developed a relationship but was pushing him to find someone else so that he could come out of his shell. Steve really doesn't have any friends beside BW and he even states he doesn't know how to be happy. BW wanted him to stop being so depressed (he kind of was, he didn't seem to have a life as he said, his barbershop quartet is dead) and have other friends.

 

[Three_Inches]

Well ..thats kind of tough...Hawkeye for sure...maybe Captain America....and Fury...lol...I know...its wishful thinking.

...so everyone?

 

[Three_Inches]

I don't think BW was pushing Steve away because she was in love with him. I think she understood that they could have developed a relationship but was pushing him to find someone else so that he could come out of his shell. Steve really doesn't have any friends beside BW and he even states he doesn't know how to be happy. BW wanted him to stop being so depressed (he kind of was, he didn't seem to have a life as he said, his barbershop quartet is dead) and have other friends.

I think a part of Natasha is really envious of Steve. She looks at his blemish free life and wants him to have every happiness that she doesn't think she either can practically have or deserves.