The Bush Thread

[Sebastos]

Nobodies perfect.

 

[omid17]

Senate report: Bin Laden was 'within our grasp'

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091129/ap_on_go_co/us_tora_bora_bin_laden

 

[Kelly]

Coulda', Woulda' Shoulda'

Does absolutely nothing for us now...

 

[Schlosser85]

Nobodies perfect.

Oh yes, let's make snide jokes about the deaths of 4,000 + US troops in a totally unnecessary war

 

[Marx]

Nobodies perfect.

I think the deaths of our servicemen and women deserve a little more respect than that. To brush Bush's actions on the Iraq War aside as a case of 'nobody's perfect' is incredibly insulting.

 

[Darthphere]

Insulting to who exactly? I'm not insulted.

 

[Marx]

 

[Schlosser85]

Insulting to who exactly? I'm not insulted.

you're not a serviceman who died in Bush's botched war, are you.

seriously, use your brain before you post

 

[StorminNorman]

Insulting to who exactly? I'm not insulted.

 

[Darthphere]

you're not a serviceman who died in Bush's botched war, are you.

seriously, use your brain before you post

But what if I was, wouldn't that be interesting?

Also, same logic applies to you. If this was Militaryhype.com, you got a case but as long as there aren't zombie service men trafficking this site, nobody should be insulted by Norman's post. Which by the way, come on, has nothing, NOTHING to do with disrespecting our men and women in uniform.

Also, all wars are pointless and unnecessary so that point is moot.

 

[Marx]

Schlosser meant servicemen and women and their families. And it doesn't matter if this is militaryhype or not. We all have friends and family over there. (Or know someone who is over there.) If you don't, consider yourself lucky.

 

[StorminNorman]

Schlosser meant servicemen and women and their families. And it doesn't matter if this is militaryhype or not. We all have friends and family over there. (Or know someone who is over there.) If you don't, consider yourself lucky.

I know several people who are either in the military or a military family. I think they would be far more offended at the notion Iraq or Afghanistan were "unjust", or Afghanistan "unneeded" than my retort.

 

[Darthphere]

Schlosser meant servicemen and women and their families. And it doesn't matter if this is militaryhype or not. We all have friends and family over there. (Or know someone who is over there.) If you don't, consider yourself lucky.

Yes, you're right, I'm deeply hurt by Norman's "Nobodies perfect" post. I can't believe he would say something like that. He might as well have taken a piss on their graves.

(For your information by the way, I have family and friends over there and already been to 2 funerals for 2 good friends, so don't come in here and lecture me please.)

 

[The Overlord]

Nobodies perfect.

So I guess that thin justification would also absolve Obama from any responsibility from mistakes as well, huh?

Or does only Bush not need to take responsibility for his mistakes, because he isn't perfect?

Also did the servicemen like it when Rumsfeld did not give them the correct armor or came up with a bad plan to occupy Iraq or does him not being perfect absolve him from responsibility as well.

As what about the 9 billion dollars lost in Iraq, does not count as wasteful spending because Bush isn't perfect as well?

 

[Addendum]

I know several people who are either in the military or a military family. I think they would be far more offended at the notion Iraq or Afghanistan were "unjust", or Afghanistan "unneeded" than my retort.

So?

 

[Schlosser85]

I know several people who are either in the military or a military family. I think they would be far more offended at the notion Iraq or Afghanistan were "unjust", or Afghanistan "unneeded" than my retort.

Afghanistan was justified because it was in direct response to an attack on us. Iraq was a completely unnecessary detour that took us off track on our mission, opened up a whole new front, and made us less safe by stretching our forces too thin and taking our eyes off the ball, allowing Osama bin Laden to escape and turning Iraq into a terrorist hotbed. And all this based on a supposed link between Saddam Hussein and AQ which didn't exist and which Cheney later denied ever suggesting (??) and WMDs which conveniently were never found.

Yes, Hussein was a brutal dictator, but it's frankly not our job to go around deposing brutal dictators, unless we're also going to go overthrow the Iranian and North Korean regimes, who had about as much to do with 9/11 as Hussein did.

Invading a sovereign nation on intelligence as trumped up as ours was declared "waging aggressive war" and a war crime at the Nuremberg Trials. But I guess it's only a war crime when someone else does it.

If someone is "offended" by any of the above, well that's their problem and it's completely irrelevant, because their "offense" doesn't alter reality.

 

[Hound55]

Yes, Hussein was a brutal dictator, but it's frankly not our job to go around deposing brutal dictators, unless we're also going to go overthrow the Iranian and North Korean regimes, who had about as much to do with 9/11 as Hussein did.

Invading a sovereign nation on intelligence as trumped up as ours was declared "waging aggressive war" and a war crime at the Nuremberg Trials. But I guess it's only a war crime when someone else does it.

If someone is "offended" by any of the above, well that's their problem and it's completely irrelevant, because their "offense" doesn't alter reality.

Exactly... I can't remember any suggestions that the US has to get out there and rip Mugabe out of power...

 

[StorminNorman]

Afghanistan was justified because it was in direct response to an attack on us. Iraq was a completely unnecessary detour that took us off track on our mission, opened up a whole new front, and made us less safe by stretching our forces too thin and taking our eyes off the ball, allowing Osama bin Laden to escape and turning Iraq into a terrorist hotbed. And all this based on a supposed link between Saddam Hussein and AQ which didn't exist and which Cheney later denied ever suggesting (??) and WMDs which conveniently were never found.

Yes, Hussein was a brutal dictator, but it's frankly not our job to go around deposing brutal dictators, unless we're also going to go overthrow the Iranian and North Korean regimes, who had about as much to do with 9/11 as Hussein did.

Invading a sovereign nation on intelligence as trumped up as ours was declared "waging aggressive war" and a war crime at the Nuremberg Trials. But I guess it's only a war crime when someone else does it.

If someone is "offended" by any of the above, well that's their problem and it's completely irrelevant, because their "offense" doesn't alter reality.

There is no argument, at all, for declaring the Iraq War unjust when Iraq BROKE the ceasefire from the first gulf war.

 

[SuBe]

And the 17 UN Resolutions they broke.

 

[Schlosser85]

There is no argument, at all, for declaring the Iraq War unjust when Iraq BROKE the ceasefire from the first gulf war.

How many agreements have Iran and North Korea violated? There are countries all over the globe that violate agreements and treaties and sanctions and human rights, I don't see us invading them.

Just because we can invade a country doesn't mean we should. We should have stayed in Afghanistan, destroyed AQ and the Taliban, and captured or killed Osama bin Laden and his lieutenants as a response to 9/11, not veered completely off course in the name of 9/11 into a country that had nothing to do with it, taking our eye off the ball, allowing bin Laden to escape, and making the US less safe by stretching our forces thin and overthrowing a stable secular regime (however brutal it may have been), creating a power vacuum and turning Iraq into a terrorist hotbed, drawing insurgents from Pakistan and Iran to Iraq for the opportunity to wage war against American military forces.

We went in with no understanding of Iraq's politicial, social, or religious makeup, claiming an atheist like Hussein who headed a secular government would be allied with religious fanatics like AQ who hate secular governments like his (and ours) and want to institute fundamentalist Islamic theocracies, trying to impose democracy on a country that has no tradition of it, and completely underestimating the thousand-year-old religious and ethnic divisions between different groups that Saddam Hussein had (albeit by brutal methods) temporarily had under control.

Our justification for attacking Iraq was based on lies and faulty or manipulated intel, based on a nonexistent 9/11 connection and WMDs that weren't there, and have resulted in embroiling us in a military and political quagmire that is costing us thousands of lives, God knows how many Iraqi civilians, billions upon billions of dollars when we are in the middle of the worst economic recession in decades, and is diverting resources, manpower, and attention away from the REAL frontline in the war on terror and the REAL source of 9/11, Afghanistan....or at least Afghanistan was the frontline in the war on terror before we went and created a second front through our own unnecessary actions in Iraq.

This Iraqi war was a colossal screw-up from the beginning and continues to be a massive drain on lives, resources, and money that we are in no position to afford.

 

[bell110]

Senate report: Bin Laden was 'within our grasp'

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091129/ap_on_go_co/us_tora_bora_bin_laden

HAHA, the irony.

I know several people who are either in the military or a military family. I think they would be far more offended at the notion Iraq or Afghanistan were "unjust", or Afghanistan "unneeded" than my retort.

The truth hurts.

There is no argument, at all, for declaring the Iraq War unjust when Iraq BROKE the ceasefire from the first gulf war.

Nobody's perfect.

 

[StorminNorman]

How many agreements have Iran and North Korea violated? There are countries all over the globe that violate agreements and treaties and sanctions and human rights, I don't see us invading them.

That doesn't mean there is isn't valid cause to do so, though.

Just because we can invade a country doesn't mean we should. We should have stayed in Afghanistan, destroyed AQ and the Taliban, and captured or killed Osama bin Laden and his lieutenants as a response to 9/11, not veered completely off course in the name of 9/11 into a country that had nothing to do with it, taking our eye off the ball, allowing bin Laden to escape, and making the US less safe by stretching our forces thin and overthrowing a stable secular regime (however brutal it may have been), creating a power vacuum and turning Iraq into a terrorist hotbed, drawing insurgents from Pakistan and Iran to Iraq for the opportunity to wage war against American military forces.

I agree, the STRATEGY was wrong - but you weren't talking about strategy, you were talking about justification. The Iraq War was the wrong war, but it was a justified war.

 

[Marx]

Yes, you're right, I'm deeply hurt by Norman's "Nobodies perfect" post. I can't believe he would say something like that. He might as well have taken a piss on their graves.

(For your information by the way, I have family and friends over there and already been to 2 funerals for 2 good friends, so don't come in here and lecture me please.)

I'm not lecturing anyone. That being said, I would encourage you to add something substantive to the conversation or avoid it. The political forum is not a place to chime in with one off sarcastic pot shots.

 

[Addendum]

The Iraq war is only "justified" for those who agree with it

 

[Addendum]

And the 17 UN Resolutions they broke.

Then it's the UN's problem, not the US's