BvS The BvS Ultimate Cut Thread - Part 2

[NeoRanger]

That's a poor excuse. A viewer could have literally slept the entire movie, woke up to this scene, and it would still have been coherent. Every bit of information, visual or otherwise was neatly packed up in that scene.

When the death of the Wayne's is played back for a second time, intercut with Bruce holding the spear and Joe Chill holding the gun...I don't know how anyone could get lost. You'd have to be incredibly dense or have completely tuned out of that moment to miss the significance.

People didn't miss the significance of the name, quite the contrary, they wouldn't ridicule it if they had. But the significance of that moment is wasted without following the movie thematically and without penetrating the heroes' psyche. Even if they get why that scene unfolds the way it does, it doesn't mean it resonates as a pivotal moment in the story.

 

[Paradox1]

I must've watched this version of the film 4 times already. I loved it.

Yeah man, I've seen it multiple times as well and I'm tempted to watch it every time I look in my library

 

[Anita18]

The Ultimate Cut DEFINITELY flows better with the extra scenes, but IMO it didn't improve the general uselessness of the Batmobile chase (he put a tracker on the truck, why bother chasing it?), the JL cameos which were still in a weird place in the film, the Batman vs Superman fight, and Lex making Doomsday. Those useless scenes did annoy me less because it did have more good stuff to counteract it, or maybe because I just skipped the entire BvS fight to avoid the frustration.

 

[NeoRanger]

The Ultimate Cut DEFINITELY flows better with the extra scenes, but IMO it didn't improve the general uselessness of the Batmobile chase (he put a tracker on the truck, why bother chasing it?)

Good god, the Batmobile sequence bothers me *so much*. It drives me insane, I'd fanedit the movie just to remove that. Worst scene in the whole movie, as far as I'm concerned. Even the JL cameos, as forced as they are, kind of tie into Wonder Woman being in the movie at all. That Batmobile sequence is all sorts of dumb.

 

[Xrated48]

Good god, the Batmobile sequence bothers me *so much*. It drives me insane, I'd fanedit the movie just to remove that. Worst scene in the whole movie, as far as I'm concerned. Even the JL cameos, as forced as they are, kind of tie into Wonder Woman being in the movie at all. That Batmobile sequence is all sorts of dumb.

Agreed I really hated the batmobile chase scene it does nothing to make the film any good.

 

[elgaz]

I don't get the hate for the Batmobile scene.

This is Batman we're talking about. He always has contingency plans, that's what the character is know for. His aim was always to tackle the truck directly in the Batmobile, the tracker was a contingency.

 

[NeoRanger]

I don't get the hate for the Batmobile scene.

This is Batman we're talking about. He always has contingency plans, that's what the character is know for. His aim was always to tackle the truck directly in the Batmobile, the tracker was a contingency.

That's not a good excuse for the narrative flow, but even if it were, this is Batman; stealthy, sneaky, dressed in all-black Batman. It's the Batmobile chase that should've been the contingency plan, the tracker should've been Plan A.

Especially seeing how he almost knocked that thing off when he straight-up mushed that guy's skull with the Batmobile's tires.

That aside, the sequence is overlong, not particularly impressive, it breaks the flow of the movie, it makes Batman look like a psychopath and it makes Superman look like an idiot as well. Removing this one scene fixes a lot of problems. This is enough of a reason for me to hate it.

 

[TheBat812]

That's not a good excuse for the narrative flow, but even if it were, this is Batman; stealthy, sneaky, dressed in all-black Batman. It's the Batmobile chase that should've been the contingency plan, the tracker should've been Plan A.

Especially seeing how he almost knocked that thing off when he straight-up mushed that guy's skull with the Batmobile's tires.

That aside, the sequence is overlong, not particularly impressive, it breaks the flow of the movie, it makes Batman look like a psychopath and it makes Superman look like an idiot as well. Removing this one scene fixes a lot of problems. This is enough of a reason for me to hate it.

Why? Isn't it easier to extract something when its en route rather than in potentially a safe or wherever secure place Luthor might keep it? Seems pretty typical Batman to me try to grab it on the way, with a backup plan of tracking it. The only reason he loses the truck and even has to resort to plan B is Superman's interference.

 

[matt47]

That's not a good excuse for the narrative flow, but even if it were, this is Batman; stealthy, sneaky, dressed in all-black Batman. It's the Batmobile chase that should've been the contingency plan, the tracker should've been Plan A.

Especially seeing how he almost knocked that thing off when he straight-up mushed that guy's skull with the Batmobile's tires.

That aside, the sequence is overlong, not particularly impressive, it breaks the flow of the movie, it makes Batman look like a psychopath and it makes Superman look like an idiot as well. Removing this one scene fixes a lot of problems. This is enough of a reason for me to hate it.

To be fair that's what they were going for.

 

[Anita18]

Why? Isn't it easier to extract something when its en route rather than in potentially a safe or wherever secure place Luthor might keep it? Seems pretty typical Batman to me try to grab it on the way, with a backup plan of tracking it. The only reason he loses the truck and even has to resort to plan B is Superman's interference.

And that's because he was making so much noise with his Batmobile in the first place. Could have gotten the tracker on, then stealth-attached himself to the truck too without having to attract so much attention. Or gone in the Batplane to long-distance track it.

 

[elgaz]

Damn, every time I read someone else's insights like this, I'm blown away by how good of a story teller/film maker Snyder actually is.

As much as I liked MOS, and LOVED BvS (Ultimate Edition,) I've always maintained that Snyder was still one of the weakest links. I still think he brings a lot to the table that is the source of the contention over these films, and what he brings to them is often very much what makes them divisive, but there's FAR more understanding in it than people who criticize the films grant him.
Hell, my entire point is that there's far more understanding and subtlety in his work than I, as a fan of the films, grant him.

Snyder is far from a perfect Director. But asides from a small handful, there aren't many Hollywood directors at all that I would describe as near-perfect in their work.

BvS is also far from being a perfect film. I love the film, but also recognise its flaws. With that said, I really don't get the hate - actually, no, hate is not a strong enough word; let's call it bitterness and vitriol and spite - directed at Snyder. Some people have said they wish he was dead, others want him sacked, and worse.

I mean, Transformers was basically my childhood, and Michael Bay has screwed that forever - but I don't see the same level of vitriol directed at him. It's more a case of "Oh well, it's Bay, he does explosions, we expected it ................. let's reboot sometime".

BvS is not a film that was made without thought or heart or passion. It's chock a block full of imagery, symbolism and parallels. It's a film that I've seen now about 6 times, and I love rewatching it as I see new angles every time. From the parallels of Clark on a snow-covered mountain in MOS and in the same setting in BvS, to the ideas of boys lives being consciously (or subconsciously) moulded by their Fathers (Lex is a product of his father's fists, Clark/Superman owes his moral code and character to Jonathan/Jor-El, and Batman came about because of Thomas Wayne's death and the fortune he left Bruce), to the religious symbolism - the obvious Messianic overtones surrounding Superman himself, and the hypocritical stance of a Lex who denounces the existence of any God yet tries to play the role himself.

It's all very rich. And I wouldn't never be so condescending as to suggest that many people didn't 'get it' - but I do think much of the richness in the story only becomes apparent on rewatches. Much of it is not immediately obvious, and if you had gone in to the film having not seen MOS or knowing much about Batman/Superman in general, I imagine much of it would go over people's heads.

Lest we forget, we used to get a Batman with a neon-lit car who cracked puns in the Schumacher films. We got a mopey Superman in SR who was a poor clone of Reeve, and who was basically a stalker. We almost got a McG Superman, we almost got a Tim Burton Superman who would have looked & sounded a lot like Nicholas Cage, we almost got a Superman who couldn't fly and who would have battled huge robot spiders.

What we got in BvS wasn't perfect, but it was 2 central characters who looked and sounded like their comic counterparts brought to life. And for the most part, they were faithful to their backstories in the comics.

Things could be a lot worse, so as I said, I can understand annoyance at some of the motivations etc - but not the deepseated hatred.

 

[NeoRanger]

And that's because he was making so much noise with his Batmobile in the first place. Could have gotten the tracker on, then stealth-attached himself to the truck too without having to attract so much attention. Or gone in the Batplane to long-distance track it.

Pretty much. Or just take them out before they loaded the thing in the truck; we know he can do this and it's probably the most-Batman thing he could've done.

That tracker/Batmobile sequence was shoved in for show and it's certainly not doing the movie any favours.

 

[idiot09]

I was watching "Watchmen" the other day and I wondered whether people had complained "so Dr Manhattan came back to earth just because Laurie was Comedian's daughter?That's so dumb".But then again that scene was completely spelled out for the audience.

 

[idiot09]

Snyder is far from a perfect Director. But asides from a small handful, there aren't many Hollywood directors at all that I would describe as near-perfect in their work.

BvS is also far from being a perfect film. I love the film, but also recognise its flaws. With that said, I really don't get the hate - actually, no, hate is not a strong enough word; let's call it bitterness and vitriol and spite - directed at Snyder. Some people have said they wish he was dead, others want him sacked, and worse.

I mean, Transformers was basically my childhood, and Michael Bay has screwed that forever - but I don't see the same level of vitriol directed at him. It's more a case of "Oh well, it's Bay, he does explosions, we expected it ................. let's reboot sometime".

BvS is not a film that was made without thought or heart or passion. It's chock a block full of imagery, symbolism and parallels. It's a film that I've seen now about 6 times, and I love rewatching it as I see new angles every time. From the parallels of Clark on a snow-covered mountain in MOS and in the same setting in BvS, to the ideas of boys lives being consciously (or subconsciously) moulded by their Fathers (Lex is a product of his father's fists, Clark/Superman owes his moral code and character to Jonathan/Jor-El, and Batman came about because of Thomas Wayne's death and the fortune he left Bruce), to the religious symbolism - the obvious Messianic overtones surrounding Superman himself, and the hypocritical stance of a Lex who denounces the existence of any God yet tries to play the role himself.

It's all very rich. And I wouldn't never be so condescending as to suggest that many people didn't 'get it' - but I do think much of the richness in the story only becomes apparent on rewatches. Much of it is not immediately obvious, and if you had gone in to the film having not seen MOS or knowing much about Batman/Superman in general, I imagine much of it would go over people's heads.

Lest we forget, we used to get a Batman with a neon-lit car who cracked puns in the Schumacher films. We got a mopey Superman in SR who was a poor clone of Reeve, and who was basically a stalker. We almost got a McG Superman, we almost got a Tim Burton Superman who would have looked & sounded a lot like Nicholas Cage, we almost got a Superman who couldn't fly and who would have battled huge robot spiders.

What we got in BvS wasn't perfect, but it was 2 central characters who looked and sounded like their comic counterparts brought to life. And for the most part, they were faithful to their backstories in the comics.

Things could be a lot worse, so as I said, I can understand annoyance at some of the motivations etc - but not the deepseated hatred.

Well said.Completely agreed.BvS is not a perfect film but its just so rich and there ate so many things so well done from the cinematography to the score...its good to see the uc being appreciated more.

 

[Micromind]

That's not a good excuse for the narrative flow, but even if it were, this is Batman; stealthy, sneaky, dressed in all-black Batman. It's the Batmobile chase that should've been the contingency plan, the tracker should've been Plan A.

Especially seeing how he almost knocked that thing off when he straight-up mushed that guy's skull with the Batmobile's tires.

That aside, the sequence is overlong, not particularly impressive, it breaks the flow of the movie, it makes Batman look like a psychopath and it makes Superman look like an idiot as well. Removing this one scene fixes a lot of problems. This is enough of a reason for me to hate it.

This Batman is Not acting like Batman, that's the whole point of this movie.

Why people don't get it ? He is meant to act out of character, this Batman knows only one thing ... to Hunt.

(he does some detective stuff occasionally by mistake.)

 

[AnneFan]

I don't get the hate for the Batmobile scene.

This is Batman we're talking about. He always has contingency plans, that's what the character is know for. His aim was always to tackle the truck directly in the Batmobile, the tracker was a contingency.

And frankly, he wanted to engage these guys and put them down. He wanted to let off some steam given his mood. He wanted to hunt, as Bruce Begins said above. It's the whole point.

 

[NeoRanger]

Why people don't get it ? He is meant to act out of character, this Batman knows only one thing ... to Hunt.

(he does some detective stuff occasionally by mistake.)

Because it's silly. Of course he acts like Batman. An old, tired, fed up Batman. Trackers and hunters don't carpet bomb their prey, they stalk it and shoot from the shadows and the trees when the time is right. The point of the movie isn't that this Batman isn't acting like Batman, it's that this Batman is acting *too much* like Batman, to the point of losing his mercy and his humanity and letting his frustration and his trauma define him.

 

[AnneFan]

It's Batman pushed to the extreme.

 

[elgaz]

That's not a good excuse for the narrative flow, but even if it were, this is Batman; stealthy, sneaky, dressed in all-black Batman. It's the Batmobile chase that should've been the contingency plan, the tracker should've been Plan A.

Especially seeing how he almost knocked that thing off when he straight-up mushed that guy's skull with the Batmobile's tires.

That aside, the sequence is overlong, not particularly impressive, it breaks the flow of the movie, it makes Batman look like a psychopath and it makes Superman look like an idiot as well. Removing this one scene fixes a lot of problems. This is enough of a reason for me to hate it.

I think it's important to note that this wasn't just about tracking the Kryptonite. As I said in an earlier post, this version of Bruce/Batman is a more jaded one who has become increasingly brutal in his methods. It's all owed to a subconscious fear of his (as emphasised in his nightmare scenes) where he is no longer facing just criminality, but superpowered beings that he can't contend with. He is slowly being reduced to the helpless boy again.

Being Batman - as opposed to being in his Bruce Wayne civilian guise - gives him that feeling of control and power again. The brutality is a side-effect of this new and uncomfortable perspective he has. Even Alfred notes that there is a reluctance on his part to do things simply as Bruce Wayne, as evidenced by the scene in the lakehouse where they discuss how to break into Luthor's computers.

Going after the Kryptonite in the Batmobile was perfectly in character in for him. He doesn't want it to get back to the increased security at Lex's building. It's a hands-on approach, and he does it in a particularly aggressive fashion because his rage is making him overdo things. He is taking back control and relishing the feeling it gives him. And Kryptonite isn't just some random material which he is trying to seize; it's the one thing on Earth which he can use to defeat Superman, so it makes sense that he would take a more vested interest in acquiring it than anything else he's ever gone after.

 

[Micromind]

Because it's silly. Of course he acts like Batman. An old, tired, fed up Batman. Trackers and hunters don't carpet bomb their prey, they stalk it and shoot from the shadows and the trees when the time is right.

Are you talking about the warehouse scene (Bolded part in your post) ?

He fired bullets from Batplane as he was running out of time (Had to save Superman's mother), and still those bullet rounds were like warning shots, fired at the ground first (not carpet bombs) but those thugs continued shooting at Batplane while hiding behind the Cars, after that Bats had no choice but to blow up the Cars. He gave them enough time to run away, but they didn't.

The point of the movie isn't that this Batman isn't acting like Batman, it's that this Batman is acting *too much* like Batman, to the point of losing his mercy and his humanity and letting his frustration and his trauma define him.

No, he isn't Alfred even calls out Bruce Wayne on this and Bats never branded Criminals earlier, and then the scene where a man tells Clark "There's a new mean in him", implies that Bats has become ruthless and behaves like a Criminal.

 

[AnneFan]

"So falls the house of Wayne" in the UC also cements that Bruce has lost his way.

 

[elgaz]

No, he isn't Alfred even calls out Bruce Wayne on this and Bats never branded Criminals earlier, and then the scenes where a man tell Clark "There's a new mean in him", implies that Bats has become ruthless and behaves like a Criminal.

After watching the UC I was curious if Batman intentionally kept branding the criminals because he knew it would be a death sentence in prison.

"Criminals are like weeds ....... pull one up and another grows in its place".

Is this a tired and jaded Batman who's had enough, has bigger fish to fry (like superhumans who can destroy the world) and simply can't be bothered with a never-ending fight against criminals anymore? He brands them knowing that someone else will take care of them and it's one less criminal to worry about.

 

[NeoRanger]

Are you talking about the warehouse scene (Bolded part in your post) ?

No, it was a metaphor.

Not that I agree with your defense of that Batwing scene, but I wasn't talking about it anyway.

No, he isn't Alfred even calls out Bruce Wayne on this and Bats never branded Criminals earlier, and then the scene where a man tells Clark "There's a new mean in him", implies that Bats has become ruthless and behaves like a Criminal.

No, it implies that Batman can barely see the fine line he walks every night when he jumps off rooftops and he is very close to crossing it and becoming "The Batman". As in, the superstition that the criminals fear in the first place. That's the entire point of Batman; flirting with the darkness every day and still not falling over the balance beam.

Moreover, that's actually the point of this entire film. Both the main characters are struggling with their super-hero alter egos and find redemption once they discover how to be human again. There is nothing so conveniently superficial in the story as "acting out of character" or "acting like a criminal". He's acting like The Batman. A very, very scary Batman.

After watching the UC I was curious if Batman intentionally kept branding the criminals because he knew it would be a death sentence in prison.

There was one confirmed fatality of a branded criminal in jail and that was Santos. The "death sentence" thing was an extra TV News segment super-imposed on the TV in the scene that sees the African villager after the hearing and it exists only in the Theatrical Cut. They kept the scene but switched the picture on the TV to add some very sloppy context about the branding.

In the UC we see Santos freaking out when they try to put him in, but there is no 'death sentence' rumour.

 

[Cobblepot]

In the UC you can see that Lex is the one killing the Bat branded villains through a youtube fitness personality.
That's why it so sad Batman didn't brand Lex on his forehead like he once did with the Joker in his milder years.

 

[elgaz]

Batman branding Lex would have completely undone everything that came before.

Choosing to hammer his fist into the wall instead of Lex's head was a sign that he's abandoned the brutality & cruelty that he had resorted to, and began to believe what Superman's death was signifying - that there's still good in men, and hope for people like him.