BvS The BvS Ultimate Cut Thread - Part 2

[gdw]

I guess I'll try this again. How do you know, or how can you be sure, that what you said above is true? It is very difficult for me to believe that the majority of the people who eventually mocked the "Martha" scene were not in any way influenced by social media or discussion among friends and family. Even my mom who is largely in the dark about pop culture mentioned something about the scene to me before I saw the film because one of her friends posted something about on Facebook the Friday the film was released. Every single person I know in real life or follow on social media who made fun of the "Martha" moment had been talking about the film for weeks and had been following early spoilers about the film.

Moreover, there were those who weren't voraciously stalking social media for intel about the movie ended up poking fun at the scene and the whole film in general before even seeing because of their preexisting hatred of Zack Snyder as a filmmaker. There's no way to even determine if anyone who initially mocked the scene did it just because it was an easy target when describing a movie that didn't work for them. It becomes a way to fit in with the crowd and a catchphrase, something common in comedy, much like the bear in The Revenant or the poop potatoes in The Martian. It's ripped of all its context and nuance because it is such an important, thus memorable, moment in the film. Once someone with an agenda or with bias describes the scene out of context, or in a hyperbolic manner, in the process of offering an early review or any review, then a seed is already planted. The well has been poisoned. I believe it would be a challenging task to find someone who was completely in the dark about the film -- someone who could be counted upon to view the film with as much of an open mind as possible -- come to the conclusion that Batman and Superman ended their fight solely because Batman found out that their mothers share the same name.

All of which basically boils down to what I believe is bias influencing perception, interpretation, and ultimately discussion. I know that I cannot prove my interpretation is true, but I don't think you can either. What I do know is that memes like this don't happen in a vacuum. I highly doubt that the "Martha" moment would have been such a popular target for mockery and scorn if not for its prevalence on social media starting several days before the film's theatrical release as well as existing bias against Snyder, DCEU films, and anything resembling sentimentality and softness within the context of macho male grudge match.

Ok, I think you've COMPLETELY missed a couple things that are very important.

First, I never said anything about the MAJORITY of people who mocked it. I said PEOPLE would have mocked it. I never said the premature talk did not exacerbate it.

Second, you keep questioning how I can know that people, who heard nothing about the scene, mocked it, but I've told you repeatedly, I'm referring to literal people I know. As in, I know because it literally happened. I don't know how to spell this out any more clearly; I'm not intending to be aggressive, or patronizing, I'm trying to make this as clear as I can:

A good majority of people do not follow this stuff in the first place, and a LARGE number of the population do not even see it on social media. Yes, plenty do, like your mother, but a HUGE number of people do not. These people still see movies.
On top of that, there are people who avoid ALL communication about a film (literally close their eyes and plug their ears in the theaters when trailers play.) I PERSONALLY know people in all of the above categories, and while many loved the film, and did NOT take umbrage with the moment in question, some still did, and mocked it gleefully; WITHOUT having heard ANYTHING about the scene before hand.

So, again, I know it would have happened because it DID happen, and I was there.

I hope that makes things more clear for you.

To Clark, he is pleading Batman to save his mother, if she were named Betty he would say that name.

It doesn't matter (to Clark) To Bruce, it's a shock, first, it's the same name as his mother's name, second, it's surprising (to him) that Superman also has a mother who is human and also that she is aslo named as "Martha", third, that even while facing a certain death, Superman shows concern for her well being, fourth, that another woman "Lois Lane" knows all this and she is also trying to save Superman, and then Batman takes a pause, steps back and realizes that he has been played, manipulated by Lex Luthor, similarly, Batman also realizes that Lex Luthor has kidnapped Superman's mother.

After all this realization it becomes clear to him that "He" was wrong, that he was about to murder someone's parents just like Joe Chill killed his parents. And, he throws away Kryptonite spear in disgust.

Clark Kent is not playing mind games with Bruce here, he is genuinely concerned about his mother which is why even when he could die, he is only thinking about hoe to save her, the scene clearly shows that Clark is saying "Save Martha Ke..t", he is not saying save Martha or save Martha Wayne.

Although I did not hear him saying "Ke..t," this nailed it. The coincidence factor (the part that so many insist on reducing it to) only serves to shock Bruce into stopping in his tracks. It is NOT what makes him change his mind.

 

[WoodyROM]

Sooooo....while I love reading a cyclical debate (I have rather enjoyed it), I have a question. What version of the blu ray are you guys picking up? I'm having trouble deciding which way to go. Apologies for the delay, now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

[gdw]

And that's because he was making so much noise with his Batmobile in the first place. Could have gotten the tracker on, then stealth-attached himself to the truck too without having to attract so much attention. Or gone in the Batplane to long-distance track it.

Yeah, all true. Though, again, Batman is supposed to have gone over the edge here; he's careless, he let's people die, he's willing to murder Superman. He's also given up on a good portion of his stealth approach.
Obviously not ALL (his introductory scene,) but even the prequel comics made comment on this change. Criminals used to not even see him when he would take them out, but now he doesn't care as much about being seen, and being much more sadistic. He's FAR more brazen, leaves calling cards everywhere, including when he's doing completely criminal things against private businesses (breaking into LexCorp, killing non criminal security guards, to steal the Kryptonite.)
He just doesn't care if people know he's there, unless absolutely necessary.

There's a lot I'm not fond of in the Batmobile chase, but ultimately I don't mind it in the film.

 

[gdw]

Sooooo....while I love reading a cyclical debate (I have rather enjoyed it), I have a question. What version of the blu ray are you guys picking up? I'm having trouble deciding which way to go. Apologies for the delay, now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

IF the 4K is backwards compatible, then I'll probably be grabbing that.
If not, then probably whatever Ultimate Edition that has the most special features, lol.

 

[Cobblepot]

I know, I got it. I liked BvS a lot, I don't mind Batman killing in any of the movies.

But Lex soooo deserved the branding, and besides it would have gotten him killed.

 

[gdw]

Snyder is far from a perfect Director. But asides from a small handful, there aren't many Hollywood directors at all that I would describe as near-perfect in their work.

BvS is also far from being a perfect film. I love the film, but also recognise its flaws. With that said, I really don't get the hate - actually, no, hate is not a strong enough word; let's call it bitterness and vitriol and spite - directed at Snyder. Some people have said they wish he was dead, others want him sacked, and worse.

I mean, Transformers was basically my childhood, and Michael Bay has screwed that forever - but I don't see the same level of vitriol directed at him. It's more a case of "Oh well, it's Bay, he does explosions, we expected it ................. let's reboot sometime".

BvS is not a film that was made without thought or heart or passion. It's chock a block full of imagery, symbolism and parallels. It's a film that I've seen now about 6 times, and I love rewatching it as I see new angles every time. From the parallels of Clark on a snow-covered mountain in MOS and in the same setting in BvS, to the ideas of boys lives being consciously (or subconsciously) moulded by their Fathers (Lex is a product of his father's fists, Clark/Superman owes his moral code and character to Jonathan/Jor-El, and Batman came about because of Thomas Wayne's death and the fortune he left Bruce), to the religious symbolism - the obvious Messianic overtones surrounding Superman himself, and the hypocritical stance of a Lex who denounces the existence of any God yet tries to play the role himself.

It's all very rich. And I wouldn't never be so condescending as to suggest that many people didn't 'get it' - but I do think much of the richness in the story only becomes apparent on rewatches. Much of it is not immediately obvious, and if you had gone in to the film having not seen MOS or knowing much about Batman/Superman in general, I imagine much of it would go over people's heads.

Lest we forget, we used to get a Batman with a neon-lit car who cracked puns in the Schumacher films. We got a mopey Superman in SR who was a poor clone of Reeve, and who was basically a stalker. We almost got a McG Superman, we almost got a Tim Burton Superman who would have looked & sounded a lot like Nicholas Cage, we almost got a Superman who couldn't fly and who would have battled huge robot spiders.

What we got in BvS wasn't perfect, but it was 2 central characters who looked and sounded like their comic counterparts brought to life. And for the most part, they were faithful to their backstories in the comics.

Things could be a lot worse, so as I said, I can understand annoyance at some of the motivations etc - but not the deepseated hatred.

Absolutely. I mean, I do understand the passion, but man, how it turns to such vitriol can be flabbergasting.

Not that I haven't been guilty of it myself.


Speaking of the parallels and mirroring between the films, as much as fathers still play a part in BvS, this reminds me of something I heard about MOS.
I think it may have been on Kevin Smith's Fatman on Batman podcast, but someone referred to MOS as "My Two Dads."
If that's the case, then BvS should be "Our Two Moms."

 

[WoodyROM]

IF the 4K is backwards compatible, then I'll probably be grabbing that.
If not, then probably whatever Ultimate Edition that has the most special features, lol.

Thats what I'm looking for. MOS had versions with extra special features, but I haven't seen anything like that with BvS. The 4K version also comes with a blu ray, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Micromind]

Absolutely. I mean, I do understand the passion, but man, how it turns to such vitriol can be flabbergasting.

Not that I haven't been guilty of it myself.


Speaking of the parallels and mirroring between the films, as much as fathers still play a part in BvS, this reminds me of something I heard about MOS.
I think it may have been on Kevin Smith's Fatman on Batman podcast, but someone referred to MOS as "My Two Dads."
If that's the case, then BvS should be "Our Two Moms."

lol, and Bruce's Mom becomes Batdemon in his Knightmares.

 

[gdw]

I know, I got it. I liked BvS a lot, I don't mind Batman killing in any of the movies.

But Lex soooo deserved the branding, and besides it would have gotten him killed.

Lol, well, it would be somewhat appropriate, considering he was the one having the branded guys offed. Of course that means he might actually have stood a chance of surviving the brand then.

 

[Predator jp]

I don't get the hate for the Batmobile scene.

This is Batman we're talking about. He always has contingency plans, that's what the character is know for. His aim was always to tackle the truck directly in the Batmobile, the tracker was a contingency.

he almost destroyed the tracker by attacking the truck directly.
that was kinda stupid.

 

[gdw]

Pretty much. Or just take them out before they loaded the thing in the truck; we know he can do this and it's probably the most-Batman thing he could've done.

That tracker/Batmobile sequence was shoved in for show and it's certainly not doing the movie any favours.

But then he wouldn't have been able to throw in that TDKR reference with the riffle to launch a tracker.

 

[gdw]

. . .

There was one confirmed fatality of a branded criminal in jail and that was Santos. The "death sentence" thing was an extra TV News segment super-imposed on the TV in the scene that sees the African villager after the hearing and it exists only in the Theatrical Cut. They kept the scene but switched the picture on the TV to add some very sloppy context about the branding.

In the UC we see Santos freaking out when they try to put him in, but there is no 'death sentence' rumour.

Actually, in the UE, I thought it was MORE explicit that they were being killed. There's also been dozens branded in the UE, where as in the TC, Santos is only the second one. Also, in the TC, the first branded guy is not dead, but IS in critical condition, and we never get explicit confirmation that Santos dies. Technically we see the photos of him in the morgue, but in the TC, we do not get the context, and it can be assumed that these are photos taken of his injuries, while alive.

I'm going to watch the UE again soon, see if I can confirm any explicit confirmation that other branded criminals had also been killed. It makes sense that Lex would have had more than just the last one killed, especially as they were all people the Bat had interrogated looking into Lex. So, not only just to further push Superman against Batman, but also cleaning up his own loose ends.

 

[gdw]

he almost destroyed the tracker by attacking the truck directly.
that was kinda stupid.

Considering he did that after blindly driving out of the building, after nearly loosing control of the batmobile in the first place.
I do not thing that part was intentional.

 

[NeoRanger]

Actually, in the UE, I thought it was MORE explicit that they were being killed. There's also been dozens branded in the UE, where as in the TC, Santos is only the second one. Also, in the TC, the first branded guy is not dead, but IS in critical condition, and we never get explicit confirmation that Santos dies. Technically we see the photos of him in the morgue, but in the TC, we do not get the context, and it can be assumed that these are photos taken of his injuries, while alive.

I'm going to watch the UE again soon, see if I can confirm any explicit confirmation that other branded criminals had also been killed. It makes sense that Lex would have had more than just the last one killed, especially as they were all people the Bat had interrogated looking into Lex. So, not only just to further push Superman against Batman, but also cleaning up his own loose ends.

If I recall correctly, about 18 inmates wore the brand. Clark reads the article about it and officials (and the public) are riled up, but I don't recall anyone having been killed before. Then again, this article did flash by too fast.

If I'm not wrong, then Batman brands the criminals and Lex takes advantage of the latest front paper to manipulate Superman. In the TC we learn very early on that the branding is allegedly "a death sentence", implicating Batman on a moral level. It's fairly obvious that Santos is dead in those pictures.

 

[misslane38]

Ok, I think you've COMPLETELY missed a couple things that are very important.

First, I never said anything about the MAJORITY of people who mocked it. I said PEOPLE would have mocked it. I never said the premature talk did not exacerbate it.

Second, you keep questioning how I can know that people, who heard nothing about the scene, mocked it, but I've told you repeatedly, I'm referring to literal people I know. As in, I know because it literally happened. I don't know how to spell this out any more clearly; I'm not intending to be aggressive, or patronizing, I'm trying to make this as clear as I can:

A good majority of people do not follow this stuff in the first place, and a LARGE number of the population do not even see it on social media. Yes, plenty do, like your mother, but a HUGE number of people do not. These people still see movies.
On top of that, there are people who avoid ALL communication about a film (literally close their eyes and plug their ears in the theaters when trailers play.) I PERSONALLY know people in all of the above categories, and while many loved the film, and did NOT take umbrage with the moment in question, some still did, and mocked it gleefully; WITHOUT having heard ANYTHING about the scene before hand.

So, again, I know it would have happened because it DID happen, and I was there.

I hope that makes things more clear for you.

It doesn't really, because anecdotal evidence isn't sufficient evidence and neither are assumptions or guesses, which we both used to speculate. The bottom line is there is no way to know how additional variables affected how people both perceived and discussed the "Martha" scene. Anyway, we can agree to disagree.

 

[LoganGambit87]

i really wish they got rid of the dream sequence because it just confuses the audiences if your gonna tease the audience atleast have it make sense or dont show it at all

i showed my dad the movie and he had no idea WTF was going on

 

[Sleiek]

Did anyone else notice a pretty big scar on Bruce Wayne's left upper chest? Wonder what story it holds.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Snyder is far from a perfect Director. But asides from a small handful, there aren't many Hollywood directors at all that I would describe as near-perfect in their work.

BvS is also far from being a perfect film. I love the film, but also recognise its flaws. With that said, I really don't get the hate - actually, no, hate is not a strong enough word; let's call it bitterness and vitriol and spite - directed at Snyder. Some people have said they wish he was dead, others want him sacked, and worse.

I mean, Transformers was basically my childhood, and Michael Bay has screwed that forever - but I don't see the same level of vitriol directed at him. It's more a case of "Oh well, it's Bay, he does explosions, we expected it ................. let's reboot sometime".

BvS is not a film that was made without thought or heart or passion. It's chock a block full of imagery, symbolism and parallels. It's a film that I've seen now about 6 times, and I love rewatching it as I see new angles every time. From the parallels of Clark on a snow-covered mountain in MOS and in the same setting in BvS, to the ideas of boys lives being consciously (or subconsciously) moulded by their Fathers (Lex is a product of his father's fists, Clark/Superman owes his moral code and character to Jonathan/Jor-El, and Batman came about because of Thomas Wayne's death and the fortune he left Bruce), to the religious symbolism - the obvious Messianic overtones surrounding Superman himself, and the hypocritical stance of a Lex who denounces the existence of any God yet tries to play the role himself.

It's all very rich. And I wouldn't never be so condescending as to suggest that many people didn't 'get it' - but I do think much of the richness in the story only becomes apparent on rewatches. Much of it is not immediately obvious, and if you had gone in to the film having not seen MOS or knowing much about Batman/Superman in general, I imagine much of it would go over people's heads.

Lest we forget, we used to get a Batman with a neon-lit car who cracked puns in the Schumacher films. We got a mopey Superman in SR who was a poor clone of Reeve, and who was basically a stalker. We almost got a McG Superman, we almost got a Tim Burton Superman who would have looked & sounded a lot like Nicholas Cage, we almost got a Superman who couldn't fly and who would have battled huge robot spiders.

What we got in BvS wasn't perfect, but it was 2 central characters who looked and sounded like their comic counterparts brought to life. And for the most part, they were faithful to their backstories in the comics.

Things could be a lot worse, so as I said, I can understand annoyance at some of the motivations etc - but not the deepseated hatred.

Well said, some of the vitriol and hate I have witnessed has been astonishing, it's pure hatred from some people like Snyder ruined their lives or something.

But then I see people making certain claims against the movie that just aren't true, and I agree I would never claim that people didn't understand the movie. But I do think in some instances hatred blinded them from seeing some of the good points.

I don't want to point out posters or name names and I really mean no offence with this, but I have seen people claim "The Pa Kent scene was him telling Clark not to be a hero as nothing good comes of it" and " Superman only sacrificed himself against Doomsday to protect Lois, he didn't care about the rest of world." I read these and just think "WTF" as this is just a gross misrepresentation of these scenes. I saw the movie twice a number of months ago and still knew what these scenes meant as they were quite integral.

Again I am not saying it went over people's heads, and I am certainly not claiming I am perfect and never misinterpret things as I do so quite a bit. But those claims were just so wrong I was in disbelief and had to reply. I accept plenty of criticisms of the movie, but I just think hatred blinded a lot of people to certain parts and what they meant. As well some very good and well done parts of the movie. It's a shame really as I think once these posters get over their hatred of certain things they may see the movie in a different light.

Not saying it will be a masterpiece in years to come, but maybe some who hated it could come to accept it. Who knows though.

 

[chintai80]

Well said, some of the vitriol and hate I have witnessed has been astonishing, it's pure hatred from some people like Snyder ruined their lives or something.

But then I see people making certain claims against the movie that just aren't true, and I agree I would never claim that people didn't understand the movie. But I do think in some instances hatred blinded them from seeing some of the good points.

I don't want to point out posters or name names and I really mean no offence with this, but I have seen people claim "The Pa Kent scene was him telling Clark not to be a hero as nothing good comes of it" and " Superman only sacrificed himself against Doomsday to protect Lois, he didn't care about the rest of world." I read these and just think "WTF" as this is just a gross misrepresentation of these scenes. I saw the movie twice a number of months ago and still knew what these scenes meant as they were quite integral.

Again I am not saying it went over people's heads, and I am certainly not claiming I am perfect and never misinterpret things as I do so quite a bit. But those claims were just so wrong I was in disbelief and had to reply. I accept plenty of criticisms of the movie, but I just think hatred blinded a lot of people to certain parts and what they meant. As well some very good and well done parts of the movie. It's a shame really as I think once these posters get over their hatred of certain things they may see the movie in a different light.

Not saying it will be a masterpiece in years to come, but maybe some who hated it could come to accept it. Who knows though.

agree with your sentiments here.
there are some things i really liked about the movie. there are some things that snyder got really right.

but for me the bad outweighed the good, at least for the TC.
the bad editing, pacing, illogical motivations, etc.
^ but it sounds like the UC fixes all these?

 

[Steyin]

Did anyone else notice a pretty big scar on Bruce Wayne's left upper chest? Wonder what story it holds.

Yeah I caught that when he was doing the pull ups.

 

[Sleiek]

Yeah I caught that when he was doing the pull ups.

I don't know how I missed it. I was just watching the workout scene again on youtube and noticed it this time.

 

[gdw]

It doesn't really, because anecdotal evidence isn't sufficient evidence and neither are assumptions or guesses, which we both used to speculate. The bottom line is there is no way to know how additional variables affected how people both perceived and discussed the "Martha" scene. Anyway, we can agree to disagree.

Ok, what are you not getting? This is a situation where anecdotal evidence is perfectly applicable, next to physically bringing you the people so that they can tell you to your face.

People. DID. Mock. The. Martha. Moment. Without. Knowing. About. It. From. Early. Reviews.

This is not a question of opinion. I am stating simple fact.

The early reactions definitely exacerbated the general reactions. I've agreed with this before.
What I am saying is that people STILL would have mocked the moment, regardless of early reactions, because people DID do exactly that.
Less people than now, probably, but there would still been people, absolutely.

To say anything else is to literally deny the reality we have witnessed.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

agree with your sentiments here.
there are some things i really liked about the movie. there are some things that snyder got really right.

but for me the bad outweighed the good, at least for the TC.
the bad editing, pacing, illogical motivations, etc.
^ but it sounds like the UC fixes all these?

For me the good outweighed the bad, but I agree there were some pretty big flaws in the movie. I too have heard that the UC fixes some of the problems, so after liking the TC I really can't wait to see the UC as I am hoping it alleviates some of the problems I have with the movie.

 

[Sleiek]

I don't get the hate for the Batmobile scene.

This is Batman we're talking about. He always has contingency plans, that's what the character is know for. His aim was always to tackle the truck directly in the Batmobile, the tracker was a contingency.

That's because these people hate the batmobile. That scene is an excuse to have some Batmobile action.

 

[gdw]

Well said, some of the vitriol and hate I have witnessed has been astonishing, it's pure hatred from some people like Snyder ruined their lives or something.

But then I see people making certain claims against the movie that just aren't true, and I agree I would never claim that people didn't understand the movie. But I do think in some instances hatred blinded them from seeing some of the good points.

I don't want to point out posters or name names and I really mean no offence with this, but I have seen people claim "The Pa Kent scene was him telling Clark not to be a hero as nothing good comes of it" and " Superman only sacrificed himself against Doomsday to protect Lois, he didn't care about the rest of world." I read these and just think "WTF" as this is just a gross misrepresentation of these scenes. I saw the movie twice a number of months ago and still knew what these scenes meant as they were quite integral.

Again I am not saying it went over people's heads, and I am certainly not claiming I am perfect and never misinterpret things as I do so quite a bit. But those claims were just so wrong I was in disbelief and had to reply. I accept plenty of criticisms of the movie, but I just think hatred blinded a lot of people to certain parts and what they meant. As well some very good and well done parts of the movie. It's a shame really as I think once these posters get over their hatred of certain things they may see the movie in a different light.

Not saying it will be a masterpiece in years to come, but maybe some who hated it could come to accept it. Who knows though.

A LOT of people's lenses seem very obviously overly tainted by their biases and assumptions, and early reviews. Hence the blatant misrepresentations of so much in the film, like the Martha moment. I think many are unwilling to see it any other way than the mocking way their biases and presumptions led them to.

agree with your sentiments here.
there are some things i really liked about the movie. there are some things that snyder got really right.

but for me the bad outweighed the good, at least for the TC.
the bad editing, pacing, illogical motivations, etc.
^ but it sounds like the UC fixes all these?

Yeah, if the tone and characterizations were NOT your issues with the film, then the UE fixes EVERYTHING you listed.
This drove me nuts, as 'editing, pacing, illogical motivations,' were the vast majority of the complaints of the negative reviews.
If THIS was the version (or a tamer pg-13 version with all the story content retained) screened for reviewers, this film would have had a completely different reception.

Again, people who did not like the tone, or the way certain people were characterized (aside from motivations, as that's cleared up in the UE,) would still have the same criticisms; However everything else would have been a COMPLETELY different story.