Civil War The Captain America: Civil War News & Speculation Thread TAG SPOILERS! - - Part 26

[Anita18]

What does it mean exactly "took the POV of Tony"? Did we see not an actual action, but Tony's fantasy? Why else would Tony be afraid of Steve killing him? It makes no sense. It's not about "knowing Steve well". Everybody knows that Steve doesn't usually kill even the worst of villains. Let's not make a total idiot and coward out of Tony. He had never been any of it.

From the camera angle close in on Steve and the cut to Tony shielding his face, yes, the movie took the POV of Tony, who thought that Steve was going to bring the shield down onto his head. In a wide shot, it would have been MUCH more obvious that Steve was aiming for the arc reactor. The Russos didn't choose that, they chose to take Tony's POV in that moment.

Movies take a POV scene by scene, and they do it using camera angles and editing. Just because there isn't an inner monologue or some soft lensing going on, doesn't mean it's a fantasy. Every story has a POV.

 

[Capsfan]

Em... If you are talking about camera POVs, then I hope you DO understand, that the shot of Tony shielding his face is actually Steve's POV. And the wide shots are there too as well. It was a fair play.

 

[2kt09]

From the camera angle close in on Steve and the cut to Tony shielding his face, yes, the movie took the POV of Tony, who thought that Steve was going to bring the shield down onto his head. In a wide shot, it would have been MUCH more obvious that Steve was aiming for the arc reactor. The Russos didn't choose that, they chose to take Tony's POV in that moment.

Yeah, they did two different shots with that moment for dramatic effect.
You see him keep aiming at the head, so you're led to believe he'd knock off his head. In reality, he was taking out his "eyes" (recall back to how he was able to counterattack) and making him think he'd go for the face again, but just wanted to take out his suit.

At no point did I think Cap was going to kill Tony, but they framed that scene to said conclusion the best they could.

 

[Rote]

In reality, he was taking out his "eyes" (recall back to how he was able to counterattack) and making him think he'd go for the face again, but just wanted to take out his suit.

For what purpose exactly did Steve prioritise going first for the "eyes" and waste his very limited time, when he should have gone straight to the arc reactor? Without reactor nothing in Tony's suits works at all including his communication. As we saw when Rhodey was shot.

 

[2kt09]

For what purpose exactly did Steve prioritize going first for the "eyes" and waste his very limited time, when he should have gone straight to the arc reactor? Without reactor nothing in Tony's suits works at all including his communication. As we saw when Rhodey was shot.

He was leaving Tony defenseless and even misdirect his guard. If he went straight for the reactor, Tony with his visor still on, might have been able to react the way he did when he grabbed the shield after a barrage of attacks.

 

[Rote]

He was leaving Tony defenseless and even misdirect his guard. If he went straight for the reactor, Tony with his visor still on, might have been able to react the way he did when he grabbed the shield after a barrage of attacks.

It's completely against all the possible logic. He raised his shield up in the air to hit three times: two to hit the helmet and then one to hit the reactor.
By doing so he has only given Tony much more time to attack him again with his repulsors. While, as we saw, hitting the arc reactor took only one quick move.

 

[Anita18]

Em... If you are talking about camera POVs, then I hope you DO understand, that the shot of Tony shielding his face is actually Steve's POV. And the wide shots are there too as well. It was a fair play.

The camera is looking up at Steve's intense face as if it was shot from Tony's POV, then there's a shot of Tony raising his hands to his face. Hence the movie was taking Tony's POV at that moment, feeling the fear that Tony feels because of how relentless Steve is in stopping him. The Russos wanted you to feel that. (The multiple and widely differing emotional POVs is also confusing, but anyway.)

Ok, I just checked and there is one VERY short wide shot of Steve lifting up the shield to bring down on the arc reactor, but my point still stands that the movie was taking Tony's POV because of the two close-up shots that I mentioned before.

For what purpose exactly did Steve prioritise going first for the "eyes" and waste his very limited time, when he should have gone straight to the arc reactor? Without reactor nothing in Tony's suits works at all including his communication. As we saw when Rhodey was shot.

It's very possible that taking off the IM helmet made Friday inaccessible to Tony. IIRC Tony's mics are in his helmet, and his AI helpers only communicate information via the in-helmet UI. Tony ultimately makes the decision about what to do in the suit, Jarvis and Friday don't directly control the IM suit that Tony wears.

If Tony can communicate with Friday, there's still a chance that he might get the better of Steve, even when Steve has him laid out on the ground. But without Friday's help, Tony stands no chance hand-to-hand. Friday even says so herself.

 

[2kt09]

It's completely against all the possible logic. He raised his shield up in the air to hit three times: two to hit the helmet and then one to hit the reactor. By doing so he has only given Tony much more time to attack him again with his repulsors. While, as we saw, hitting the arc reactor took only one quick move.

I figured it had something to do with discombobulating as well. He didn't use his repulsors at all throughout those strikes (punches and shield hits).

 

[Anita18]

Well, in moviemaking logic, OBVIOUSLY the Russos needed an excuse to show off RDJ's emoting face during his last scene with Steve.

 

[Rote]

The camera is looking up at Steve's intense face as if it was shot from Tony's POV, then there's a shot of Tony raising his hands to his face. Hence the movie was taking Tony's POV at that moment, feeling the fear that Tony feels because of how relentless Steve is in stopping him. The Russos wanted you to feel that. (The multiple and widely differing emotional POVs is also confusing, but anyway.)

Ok, I just checked and there is one VERY short wide shot of Steve lifting up the shield to bring down on the arc reactor, but my point still stands that the movie was taking Tony's POV because of the two close-up shots that I mentioned before.


It's very possible that taking off the IM helmet made Friday inaccessible to Tony. IIRC Tony's mics are in his helmet, and his AI helpers only communicate information via the in-helmet UI. Tony ultimately makes the decision about what to do in the suit, Jarvis and Friday don't directly control the IM suit that Tony wears.

If Tony can communicate with Friday, there's still a chance that he might get the better of Steve, even when Steve has him laid out on the ground. But without Friday's help, Tony stands no chance hand-to-hand. Friday even says so herself.

I figured it had something to do with discombobulating as well. He didn't use his repulsors at all throughout those strikes (punches and shield hits).

Follow the logic.
Steve ALREADY wasted his time to raise his shield up-up in the air. After that, he didn't need to hit the helmet, because it was a very redundant move. If Tony could have stopped him, he would have done this that time. Steve should have gone this moment straight to the reactor to put an end to all of this as soon as possible, while he still had his opportunity. But he didn't.
I personally don't think that Steve was trying to kill Tony on purpose, but he clearly lost his mind for a moment.

 

[2kt09]

Follow the logic.
Steve ALREADY wasted his time to raise his shield up-up in the air. After that, he didn't need to hit the helmet, because it was a very redundant move. If Tony could have stopped him, he would have done this that time. Steve should have gone this moment straight to the reactor to put an end to all of this as soon as possible, while he still had his opportunity. But he didn't.
I personally don't think that Steve was trying to kill Tony on purpose, but he clearly lost his mind for a moment.

I think it's been argued he lost his mind long before that moment (take the helmet off and you see the guy who constantly hides behind it/humiliate how badly he's lost), but it still felt like he was purposefully holding back even after Bucky's arm loss and the "So was I".

 

[Capsfan]

The camera is looking up at Steve's intense face as if it was shot from Tony's POV, then there's a shot of Tony raising his hands to his face. Hence the movie was taking Tony's POV at that moment, feeling the fear that Tony feels because of how relentless Steve is in stopping him. The Russos wanted you to feel that. (The multiple and widely differing emotional POVs is also confusing, but anyway.)

Ok, I just checked and there is one VERY short wide shot of Steve lifting up the shield to bring down on the arc reactor, but my point still stands that the movie was taking Tony's POV because of the two close-up shots that I mentioned before.

Now you're making things up. Shot of Steve's intense face is Tony's POV, yes, so why on earth the shots of Tony face should be Tony's POV again? It's clearly Steve's POV. Tony's and Steve's faces are equally close to the camera. They gave us wide shots too.

And if anything, shots from Steve's POV which shows only Tony's face close-up only prove that at first Steve was aiming for his head.

 

[Rote]

I think it could be argued he lost his mind long before that moment (take the helmet off and you see the guy who constantly hides behind it/humiliate how badly he's lost), but it still felt like he was purposefully holding back even after Bucky's arm loss and the "So was I".

I don't know what movie did you watched, but totally not the same as I did.
As was rightfully noted before me, Steve was fighting so furiously, that even FRIDAY got afraid. Holding back? Gosh, he was beaten by Tony so much, that actually came on the verge of losing consciousness.


I just rewatched it and what's interesting is that when Zemo is talking about making the Avengers "to kill each other" the movie cuts to Steve beating the hell out of Tony. The obvious suggestion.

 

[Anita18]

Now you're making things up. Shot of Steve's intense face is Tony's POV, yes, so why on earth the shots of Tony face should be Tony's POV again? It's clearly Steve's POV. Tony's and Steve's faces are equally close to the camera. They gave us wide shots too.

And if anything, shots from Steve's POV which shows only Tony's face close-up only prove that at first Steve was aiming for his head.

Easy. There's no nice-looking way of showing Tony raising his hands to his face that also show RDJ's moneymaker than by shooting it from the front.

Follow the story that the shot sequences are telling you. The camera goes to a close-up of Steve's intense facial expression as he raises the shield. The camera goes to a wide shot of Steve raising the shield so nobody can be mistaken about what Steve is doing. Cut to a shot of Tony raising his hands to his face, to protect it from a strike.

Those three shots tell the audience that Tony is scared for his life from Steve. That's what Tony is feeling. The shots that were chosen made that POV clear. It's not AS clear that Steve is only doing enough to incapacitate Tony's suit.

I honestly can't believe I'm explaining shot-selection-as-storytelling on an online forum about movies.

To be fair, like I mentioned before, the emotional jumping around between character POV is sloppy on CW, but I also suspect that the Russos/Marvel wanted to have their cake and eat it too, in terms of the audience rooting for Steve or Tony. It's easy to switch between supporting one or the other if you can cherry-pick shots and scenes and lines that support your view. Although again, sloppy moviemaking. Cap is usurped by Iron Man in his own movie, yeesh.

 

[2kt09]

I don't know what movie you watched, but totally not the same as I did.
As was rightfully noted before me, Steve was fighting so furiously, that even FRIDAY got afraid. Holding back? Gosh, he was beaten by Tony so much, that actually came on the verge of losing consciousness.

He got back up and said the two things that keep him steady, "He's my friend" and "I can do this all day".

 

[Capsfan]

Easy. There's no nice-looking way of showing Tony raising his hands to his face that also show RDJ's moneymaker than by shooting it from the front.

The shot from Tony's POV, if it were it, would have shown his raised hands and Steve raising his shield.

Follow the story that the shot sequences are telling you. The camera goes to a close-up of Steve's intense facial expression as he raises the shield. The camera goes to a wide shot of Steve raising the shield so nobody can be mistaken about what Steve is doing. Cut to a shot of Tony raising his hands to his face, to protect it from a strike.

Those three shots tell the audience that Tony is scared for his life from Steve. That's what Tony is feeling. The shots that were chosen made that POV clear. It's not AS clear that Steve is only doing enough to incapacitate Tony's suit.

It's only your subjective interpretation. You DO understand, that there are much more shots in this scene? They constantly change from Steve's POV, starting with Tony hitting the ground, to Tony's POV. The scene must be taken into consideration as a whole.
The story, which camera tells, might be as well about Steve looking at Tony's face, raising his shield aiming at his face, seeing the horror on Tony's face when he raises his hands to protect himself, and hitting the arc then instead. Because there is a clear Steve's POV shot of the shield in the reactor after that. Not Tony's POV.

Really, the Russos didn't favor anyone in this scene, they just showed what happened from BOTH POVs.
_______

He got back up and said the two things that keep him steady, "He's my friend" and "I can do this all day".

So? He was evidently exhausted and beaten to death in those moments. It's Steve. He would rather die, than give up.

 

[Anita18]

Really, the Russos didn't favor anyone in this scene, they just showed what happened from BOTH POVs.

And that's what's confusing. If Tony is fearful for his life, that means Steve is the bad guy. But Steve can't be the bad guy, because he's friggin' Captain America and this is his movie. Throwing the audience back and forth over who to support in the same scene is confusing. The closeup of Tony kicking Bucky mercilessly in the face is clearly meant to make Bucky sympathetic to the audience (the guy just had his arm blown off and can barely move), but it's kinda too late to do that, what with the entire sequence generally sympathetic to Tony.

But the Russos clearly chose to throw their emotional support to Tony in that scene. Not Steve. They made Steve seem like a would-be murderer for a split second. And it's HIS MOVIE. The choice is befuddling unless you consider that they wanted the audience to sympathize more with Tony, no matter what. Because IM and RDJ is the biggest moneymaker for the MCU.

I mean, they DID do pretty well with they had to work with. But stuff like that limits the amount of compelling storytelling they can really do, if Tony is supposed to be an antagonist in Civil War but they can't make him TOO antagonistic....

 

[2kt09]

So? He was evidently exhausted and beaten to death in those moments. It's Steve. He would rather die, than give up.

Yes, very Steve of him to maintain his moral conscience even when he's been beaten to death. Is that not what people liked about this moment?

Just two "friends" going at it until one subdues the other, Tony's in the obvious wrong, so knock him out of it.

 

[Capsfan]

And that's what's confusing. If Tony is fearful for his life, that means Steve is the bad guy. But Steve can't be the bad guy, because he's friggin' Captain America and this is his movie.

Oh, yeah, instead we have Tony as a totally bad guy, who tried to kill an innocent person.
Really, Tony lost his mind. For the entire fight. Steve is a human being too. Tony has beaten him very dirty. Even if he's lost it for a few seconds, in the end he still managed to stop himself. He didn't kill Tony. He wrote him a letter.

Throwing the audience back and forth over who to support in the same scene is confusing. The closeup of Tony kicking Bucky mercilessly in the face is clearly meant to make Bucky sympathetic to the audience (the guy just had his arm blown off and can barely move), but it's kinda too late to do that, what with the entire sequence generally sympathetic to Tony.

Not at all. This is where it all becomes subjective. Tony is already the bad guy, as I've said, he was trying to kill an innocent person. He was ready to hurt Steve very bad too. Do Steve really need to be even more sympathetic? He was protecting the innocent one.

But the Russos clearly chose to throw their emotional support to Tony in that scene. Not Steve. They made Steve seem like a would-be murderer for a split second. And it's HIS MOVIE. The choice is befuddling unless you consider that they wanted the audience to sympathize more with Tony, no matter what. Because IM and RDJ is the biggest moneymaker for the MCU.

You know, in all of the MCU movies we constantly see Tony's sins, faults and weaknesses. Especially in IM's movies. But Steve had always been the saint one before CW.
Zemo said to Steve: "How nice to find a flaw". I think it only makes him more-dimensional and interesting. Steve is a human being too, not an angel. Sometimes he can be selfish too. Sometimes he can lose his senses too in an extreme situation. Steve was my favorite character before CW and he remains being him after CW.

Oh, and CW played Tony MUCH worse, than Steve. Tony was the one, who recruited a kid for his personal battle. Even this is already enough to be mad at him.

I mean, they DID do pretty well with they had to work with. But stuff like that limits the amount of compelling storytelling they can really do, if Tony is supposed to be an antagonist in Civil War but they can't make him TOO antagonistic....

But they've said so themselves, that they wanted to tell a story about how nobody is totally wrong or totally right. But personally I still think that their Tony makes more mistakes, than Steve, so balance is questionable. I love Tony too, so I am a bit sorry for his depiction here.

 

[Relugus]

Oh, yeah, instead we have Tony as a totally bad guy, who tried to kill an innocent person.
Really, Tony lost his mind. For the entire fight. Steve is a human being too. Tony has beaten him very dirty. Even if he's lost it for a few seconds, in the end he still managed to stop himself. He didn't kill Tony. He wrote him a letter.

Not at all. This is where it all becomes subjective. Tony is already the bad guy, as I've said, he was trying to kill an innocent person. He was ready to hurt Steve very bad too. Do Steve really need to be even more sympathetic? He was protecting the innocent one.

You know, in all of the MCU movies we constantly see Tony's sins, faults and weaknesses. Especially in IM's movies. But Steve had always been the saint one before CW.
Zemo said to Steve: "How nice to find a flaw". I think it only makes him more-dimensional and interesting. Steve is a human being too, not an angel. Sometimes he can be selfish too. Sometimes he can lose his senses too in an extreme situation. Steve was my favorite character before CW and he remains being him after CW.

Oh, and CW played Tony MUCH worse, than Steve. Tony was the one, who recruited a kid for his personal battle. Even this is already enough to be mad at him.

But they've said so themselves, that they wanted to tell a story about how nobody is totally wrong or totally right. But personally I still think that their Tony makes more mistakes, than Steve, so balance is questionable. I love Tony too, so I am a bit sorry for his depiction here.

Steve trains Wanda even though he has zero understanding of her powers.

Some would call that hubristic.

 

[metaphysician]

Assuming facts not in evidence, that he has "zero understanding" of her powers. She obviously understands her powers enough to wield them in quite a variety of ways. They've worked together for a prolonged period. He's seen her in action even before that. And they have coworkers who are experts in weird science.

Bluntly, he probably "understands" her powers just fine, at least in terms relevant to training her to be a better superhero. Which depends less on the fine details of how your powers function, and more "what can they do, what are the limits and parameters", so that she can learn useful skills at tactics and teamwork.

 

[The Caped Knight]

Mondo recently completed their Civil War Character poster.

 

[Sleiek]

Looks awesome!

 

[AvengerPA]

Captain America:Civil War concept art:
http://www.spoilerfreemoviesleuth.com/2017/02/images-new-captain-america-civil-war.html

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BMjKRwFd...Ej-g70w1L7ShROFmNd3YbKACLcB/s1600/ylBvFdM.jpg

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[jr24tw]

I'm still not over the fact that they destroyed my airport there at the end. Freaking superheroes. Why can't they ever learn to communicate which would solve most of their problems every single time? Instead they rather beat on each other, leaving maximum carnage in their wake. Urgh.