The Dark Knight The Christian Bale/Bruce Wayne thread

[Tatsumarushinob]

Well, I'll start myself, if you dont mind:

-When he is sitting at dawn in his chair, sweating, suit all over the floor. He is about to break, but doesn't. The music here is the same as the scene in BB where young Bruce tells Alfred that he (Bruce) is responsible for his parents death. Even the way he says Alfred's name is the same.

-The interrogation scene. I like it beacuse of Batman. Ledger was good. But Bale's eyes do most of the talking in that scene. His eyes express self-control and anger at the same time. Just awesome. And because the bad guy gets his ass kicked, even though he laughs about it.

-The scene at the makeshift bat-cave. The way he says Batman has no limits. Its like he prefers Batman over Bruce. Which makes a hell of a lot of sense given the character's nature in the comics.

 

[Fenrir]

-The interrogation scene. I like it beacuse of Batman. Ledger was good. But Bale's eyes do most of the talking in that scene. His eyes express self-control and anger at the same time. Just awesome. And because the bad guy gets his ass kicked, even though he laughs about it.

Absolutely right! The interrogation scene is simply one of the best scenes in the film, and to me, it was always because of Bale's Batman. While the Joker keeps yapping on and on, and when the camera cuts to Batman who is just sitting there silently, not speaking, not blinking, not reacting...words can't express just amazing that moment is, because there are so many things you can take from it.

Is Batman letting the Joker talk? Is he even listening to him? Is he quiet because of how right the Joker is? Or perhaps he's studying his newfound enemy by intently hearing what The Joker has to say? During these briefest of moments, Batman becomes an impenetrable character. I love how he just snaps and pulls The Joker all the way across the table. And best of all, I'll never forget the way speakers of my IMAX theater boomed during my first showing when Bale roars "WHERE ARE THEY?!". In that instant, Bale's Batman almost ceased to seem human. It was such an honest, genuine expression of uncontrollable fury, and Bale's Batman voice was simply to simultaneously show the character's power and vulnerability all at once.

Of course, who can forget the final showdown between Gordon, Dent and Batman? Sure, both Oldman and Eckhart do a fantastic job but it is here as well where I think Bale's Batman shined the most. Many people have spoken about Keaton's amazing ability to express emotion with his eyes and in TDK, it seems Bale has finally shown that he has equaled, if not surpassed his predecessor in this regard. This is evident in the scene when Bruce crashes Harvey's date with Rachel. As the camera cuts to Bruce's face while Harvey defends Batman's actions, you can not only clearly see the glimmer of hope and delight in Bruce's eyes at seeing someone like Harvey standing up for him, but more importantly, that Harvey perhaps understood Batman like no one else did. Bale says so much here without uttering a single word.

It is at times like this that I am always reminded of this review of The Dark Knight:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7519246.stm

I hope that with time people will understand the depth, complexity and subtlety of Bale's Batman as they did Keaton's. If you overlook the bare few instances where Bale's voice just misses the mark, you'll see that the performance is truly a diamond in the rough. Yes, Ledger's Joker hogged the spotlight, but his star wouldn't have burned half as bright without the contrast emitted by the dark bleakness of Bale's Batman.

 

[TheDarkKnight08]

Reading Battle For The Cowl: The Underground, I'm given the impression that even their Batman has a unique voice, when Catwoman says this new Batman's got the same voice as Batman, which to me means he doesn't sound very much like Bruce. Just an observation.

 

[nathaniel]

The interrogation scene was good but like the entire movie it was all Ledger Batman was a bit part player who stomped and shouted but produced very little effect.

There was no Psycological or offensive/defencive back and forth between them in this scene and throughout the movie which is a benchmark of thier confrontations it was just Joker playing batman around his finger like he was just another Cop this is the Batman Dammit!!. I know the do anything Batman of the comics is silly for movies but in the catorgory of intelligence Keaton played it best equaled by Adam West and then Kilmer. this is why though Bale played a good Wayne/Batman it was more looks and a good written script rather then the actual feeling this is Bruce wayne intelligent billionaire and this is batman Dark knight alter ego (true persona?).

 

[namtaB]

The interrogation scene was good but like the entire movie it was all Ledger Batman was a bit part player who stomped and shouted but produced very little effect.

There was no Psycological or offensive/defencive back and forth between them in this scene and throughout the movie which is a benchmark of thier confrontations it was just Joker playing batman around his finger like he was just another Cop this is the Batman Dammit!!. I know the do anything Batman of the comics is silly for movies but in the catorgory of intelligence Keaton played it best equaled by Adam West and then Kilmer. this is why though Bale played a good Wayne/Batman it was more looks and a good written script rather then the actual feeling this is Bruce wayne intelligent billionaire and this is batman Dark knight alter ego (true persona?).

I agree with you but I think that was intentionally done. Batman was still thinking that he could intimidate the Joker like any other criminal. As soon as Joker says "To them you're just a freak like me" If you watch Bale's eyes he makes a sort of realization. By the end of the film he's learned that they are flip sides of the same coin, they both use violence to accomplish different goals. Its the act of saving the Joker from death that ultimately defeats him, Joker's laughter on the fall down turns to disappointment when he realizes Batman just saved him.

Having said all that, Batman has clearly evolved in TDK. He's learned that violence against violence doesn't work on all criminals. In the Joker's case, he just kept feeding on the violence that Batman tossed at him, it was the act of altruism that beat him.

I think the next film will be a psychological tour de force with Batman and his new nemesis. And if you're in the "Inception is Batman 3" corner you'll be excited by the "a sci fi thriller set within the architecture of the human mind" that's set to be released July 2010 with Dicaprio in a lead role.

 

[rashad]

Well, I'll start myself, if you dont mind:

-When he is sitting at dawn in his chair, sweating, suit all over the floor. He is about to break, but doesn't. The music here is the same as the scene in BB where young Bruce tells Alfred that he (Bruce) is responsible for his parents death. Even the way he says Alfred's name is the same.

-The interrogation scene. I like it beacuse of Batman. Ledger was good. But Bale's eyes do most of the talking in that scene. His eyes express self-control and anger at the same time. Just awesome. And because the bad guy gets his ass kicked, even though he laughs about it.

-The scene at the makeshift bat-cave. The way he says Batman has no limits. Its like he prefers Batman over Bruce. Which makes a hell of a lot of sense given the character's nature in the comics.

Hi-fives!! Those were 3 of the scenes I would've mentioned. Bale has very expressive eyes. A few more scenes I'd like to mention.

-Nightclub/Alley scene. Batman was in full on rage in this scene. By this point he's driven to the extreme edge by the Jokers actions. I love when he drops Maroni. Batman had a look of bewilderment when Maroni said they were wise to his act and that nobody was gonna cross the Joker for him. That was a great moment.

-Alfred's Burma story scene. Bruce seems almost obsessed with the thought that he can figure out the nature of the Joker and his motives. Knowing he's unlike any other criminal he's faced. I like how he tries to focus on the monitors while Alfred's talking.

 

[namtaB]

-Alfred's Burma story scene. Bruce seems almost obsessed with the thought that he can figure out the nature of the Joker and his motives. Knowing he's unlike any other criminal he's faced. I like how he tries to focus on the monitors while Alfred's talking.

Really? You got obsession from that scene? He was pretty flippant when he remarked to Alfred, "criminals aren't complicated." I think Alfred just forced him to reevaluate his arrogance that all criminals were the same. After listening to Alfred he looked at the monitors in a puzzling manner as if he needs to reevaluate his approach after hearing Alfred's story.

 

[rashad]

Really? You got obsession from that scene? He was pretty flippant when he remarked to Alfred, "criminals aren't complicated." I think Alfred just forced him to reevaluate his arrogance that all criminals were the same. After listening to Alfred he looked at the monitors in a puzzling manner as if he needs to reevaluate his approach after hearing Alfred's story.

That was my mistake. lol I was thinking faster than I could type at that moment. I didn't mean obsessed. I meant something along the lines of arrogance.

 

[Fenrir]

There was no Psycological or offensive/defencive back and forth between them in this scene and throughout the movie which is a benchmark of thier confrontations it was just Joker playing batman...around his finger like he was just another Cop this is the Batman Dammit!!

Benchmark of their confrontations? Can you provide examples? You know, as in psychological offensive/defensive back and forth?

It always pains me to see so many people fail miserably at fully understanding why Ledger's Joker was a great villain and why Batman almost always loses the spotlight to the Joker. It's the very nature of the characters and their personalities. The Joker is loud, showy and flamboyant and as such, will of course steal the show every time, not just from Batman but from every other character as well. In stark contrast, Batman is reserved, repressed and stoic. Secondly, TDK's Joker is such a great villain precisely because of the fact that he always had the upper hand over the hero almost every single time. It is the hallmark of almost every classic villain - Hannibal Lecter, Darth Vader, Keyser Soze or even The Terminator. To demand that there be equality between the hero and the villain would mean diminishing the very impact of the villain's power and the hero's ultimate triumph. Which is downright dumb.

I know the do anything Batman of the comics is silly for movies but in the catorgory of intelligence Keaton played it best equaled by Adam West and then Kilmer. this is why though Bale played a good Wayne/Batman it was more looks and a good written script rather then the actual feeling this is Bruce wayne intelligent billionaire and this is batman Dark knight alter ego (true persona?).

Keaton, the most intelligent? And only equaled by Adam West?!

He was smart, yes, but he also was a bumbling fool even when he wasn't trying to hide his identity. Hardly the definition the intelligent. Of course, Kilmer was certainly the most intelligent. He was pretty much Tony Stark without the flair or the motor-mouth cockiness. The only problem was that it wasn't exactly appropriate for the public image of Bruce Wayne. His intelligence is what really gave him away to Nygma. Bale's Bruce Wayne, however, is the best overall package - on the outside he's a playboy billionaire who also happens to be a shrewd businessman on the occasion. As for intelligence, well I'm sure his detective work in TDK combined with his using Fox's sonar to wiretap the entire city are more than proof enough.

 

[Panthro]

I agree with you but I think that was intentionally done. Batman was still thinking that he could intimidate the Joker like any other criminal. As soon as Joker says "To them you're just a freak like me" If you watch Bale's eyes he makes a sort of realization. By the end of the film he's learned that they are flip sides of the same coin, they both use violence to accomplish different goals. Its the act of saving the Joker from death that ultimately defeats him, Joker's laughter on the fall down turns to disappointment when he realizes Batman just saved him.

Having said all that, Batman has clearly evolved in TDK. He's learned that violence against violence doesn't work on all criminals. In the Joker's case, he just kept feeding on the violence that Batman tossed at him, it was the act of altruism that beat him.

I think the next film will be a psychological tour de force with Batman and his new nemesis. And if you're in the "Inception is Batman 3" corner you'll be excited by the "a sci fi thriller set within the architecture of the human mind" that's set to be released July 2010 with Dicaprio in a lead role.

Bulls-eye.

 

[El Payaso]

He was smart, yes, but he also was a bumbling fool even when he wasn't trying to hide his identity. Hardly the definition the intelligent.

Well, every intelligent Bruce Wayne can have a moment or two of bumblingness when facing a beautiful girl. That doesn't mean they're not intelligent, they just have soft spots. Remember when Bruce met Rachel after his pool time in that restaurant? Bumbling fool.

 

[Fenrir]

Well, every intelligent Bruce Wayne can have a moment or two of bumblingness when facing a beautiful girl. That doesn't mean they're not intelligent, they just have soft spots. Remember when Bruce met Rachel after his pool time in that restaurant? Bumbling fool.

You know, it's great that you bring that scene up, because it clearly shows the fact that Bale's Bruce Wayne is obviously superior.

The way Keaton's Bruce tries to tell Vicki who he is but can't is just embarrassing to watch. He is panicking, mumbling gibberish and can't spell the words himself to reveal his secret identity even though he desperately wanted to. It's really quite funny, and it would have been great if this was all just for show. But unfortunately Keaton's Bruce genuinely was trying to tell Vicky that he was Batman, and failed in spite of planning for it.

But Bale's Bruce in that scene was caught by surprise, yet he remains calm, playful and confident. Unlike Keaton, he shows no signs of clumsiness or ineptness. It was not Rachel's beauty that caught him off guard, but rather the fact that she came across him in the middle of his playboy ruse and he has to try and convince her about his true intentions with all the facts against him. Yet he best said what he wanted to without completely breaking off his act or revealing his true identity. Bumbling fool? Hardly.

And of course, there is that scene in Batman Returns in which Alfred brings him that cold soup and Keaton's Bruce spits it out. When Alfred says "it's Vischyssoise" and the camera cuts to Bruce with that dumbfounded look on his face...:facepalm
I still don't understand what exactly was the purpose of that other than making Bruce look silly and awkward.

 

[namtaB]

You know, it's great that you bring that scene up, because it clearly shows the fact that Bale's Bruce Wayne is obviously superior.

The way Keaton's Bruce tries to tell Vicki who he is but can't is just embarrassing to watch. He is panicking, mumbling gibberish and can't spell the words himself to reveal his secret identity even though he desperately wanted to. It's really quite funny, and it would have been great if this was all just for show. But unfortunately Keaton's Bruce genuinely was trying to tell Vicky that he was Batman, and failed in spite of planning for it.

But Bale's Bruce in that scene was caught by surprise, yet he remains calm, playful and confident. Unlike Keaton, he shows no signs of clumsiness or ineptness. It was not Rachel's beauty that caught him off guard, but rather the fact that she came across him in the middle of his playboy ruse and he has to try and convince her about his true intentions with all the facts against him. Yet he best said what he wanted to without completely breaking off his act or revealing his true identity. Bumbling fool? Hardly.

And of course, there is that scene in Batman Returns in which Alfred brings him that cold soup and Keaton's Bruce spits it out. When Alfred says "it's Vischyssoise" and the camera cuts to Bruce with that dumbfounded look on his face...:facepalm
I still don't understand what exactly was the purpose of that other than making Bruce look silly and awkward.

I never liked the Howard Hughes/Quirky Wayne that Burton was going for. I understand what he was doing and it makes sense on some level that this intelligent/quirky guy who has trouble expressing himself through words could be Batman. But I prefer the Nolan version of the overdone playboy which fits the profile of a young, handsome billionaire. Just seems like a better direction for the character IMO.

 

[nathaniel]

It always pains me to see so many people fail miserably at fully understanding why Ledger's Joker was a great villain and why Batman almost always loses the spotlight to the Joker. It's the very nature of the characters and their personalities. The Joker is loud, showy and flamboyant and as such, will of course steal the show every time, not just from Batman but from every other character as well. In stark contrast, Batman is reserved, repressed and stoic. Secondly, TDK's Joker is such a great villain precisely because of the fact that he always had the upper hand over the hero almost every single time. It is the hallmark of almost every classic villain - Hannibal Lecter, Darth Vader, Keyser Soze or even The Terminator. To demand that there be equality between the hero and the villain would mean diminishing the very impact of the villain's power and the hero's ultimate triumph. Which is downright dumb.

In B89 batman gave as good as he got though Joker, of course, was far more on the offensive killing the models,the museam hijack ect) batman shot back by blowing up axis chemicals, breaking the Jokers chemical code (if thats not smart to you you must be a genuis yourself) ect.

Batman v Joker is not just a clash of personality its also a clash of INTELLIGENCE and unlike Soze,Terminator and Co none of them have a complete opposite foe who matches them every step of the way.

Keaton, the most intelligent? And only equaled by Adam West?!

He was smart, yes, but he also was a bumbling fool even when he wasn't trying to hide his identity. Hardly the definition the intelligent. Of course, Kilmer was certainly the most intelligent. He was pretty much Tony Stark without the flair or the motor-mouth cockiness. The only problem was that it wasn't exactly appropriate for the public image of Bruce Wayne. His intelligence is what really gave him away to Nygma. Bale's Bruce Wayne, however, is the best overall package - on the outside he's a playboy billionaire who also happens to be a shrewd businessman on the occasion. As for intelligence, well I'm sure his detective work in TDK combined with his using Fox's sonar to wiretap the entire city are more than proof enough.

Easily yes, Keaton was bumbling but he had the AIR OF INTELLIGENCE whats so hard about this concept for people to understand?? Robert Downys Stark ,Adam west (yes it was camp but it was there) and Kilmer had it without the script telling you a pile of tecno speak or over the top feats. And its not always the script or the things the hero does but how he portrays himself Keaton was easily the best balanced even when not just the acting and if you want it from the script how about repairing the batmobile to breaking jokers code,to redirecting penguins missiles ect ect ect you cant compare this to LUCIUS making a glorified radar device without him Batman would be left sitting in a room wondering what to do next.

Face it Bale looked amazing as Bruce but they made the mistake of thinking that was all that mattered if they added the Air kilmer,keaton,west or RDJ had they would have struck gold as it was Bales Batman was a aman in a suit outlet for rage (shouting and running about hitting people with few results against joker) and his bruce was a determined and slightly shrewd guy who relied far to much on others for results thats not batman for me.

 

[nathaniel]

And of course, there is that scene in Batman Returns in which Alfred brings him that cold soup and Keaton's Bruce spits it out. When Alfred says "it's Vischyssoise" and the camera cuts to Bruce with that dumbfounded look on his face...:facepalm
I still don't understand what exactly was the purpose of that other than making Bruce look silly and awkward.

<Sigh>

Bruce was concentrating so hard he wasnt really thinking about the food Alfred gave him and his mind told him it would be hot food he registered cold when he ate it and was surprised.

WHAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT??

Its a light hearted moment but so what? Batman can afford to have them i think it brilliantly shows Keatons range and his sometimes too intense concentration throughout the movies.

 

[El Payaso]

You know, it's great that you bring that scene up, because it clearly shows the fact that Bale's Bruce Wayne is obviously superior.

The way Keaton's Bruce tries to tell Vicki who he is but can't is just embarrassing to watch. He is panicking, mumbling gibberish and can't spell the words himself to reveal his secret identity even though he desperately wanted to. It's really quite funny, and it would have been great if this was all just for show. But unfortunately Keaton's Bruce genuinely was trying to tell Vicky that he was Batman, and failed in spite of planning for it.

Absolutely. He fails at it. At that point it has been shown that Bruce Wayne lacks of social skills. He can't eat his soup properly in front of Vicki. This Bruce Wayne also has this hurt child inside (Vicki says that he still looks like the night his parents were killed). We're talking about a man that without a mask has a lot of vulnerability (just like Bale's Bruce in the restaurant scene, I don't see why you think of that as being "inferior"), a kid that feels he needs protection all the time (that's why he keeps lying unnecessarily all the time).

It's quite strange you didn't get that.

But Bale's Bruce in that scene was caught by surprise, yet he remains calm, playful and confident. Unlike Keaton, he shows no signs of clumsiness or ineptness.

That was confident? He was like a school girl bumping into Brad Pitt. t:

And then he wanted to crawl under the soil when the two models called him.

Unlike you, I understand him. The man is in love. When you're like that, bumbling doesn't make you inferior.

It was not Rachel's beauty that caught him off guard, but rather the fact that she came across him in the middle of his playboy ruse and he has to try and convince her about his true intentions with all the facts against him. Yet he best said what he wanted to without completely breaking off his act or revealing his true identity.

If that's the case then he should have gone all cocky, "Hey, Rach, dear, how've ya been? Ya look smoking hot. Look, sorry I gotta go with these two girls, I don't even remember their names. But I'll call ya tomorrow, don't despair."

But no. He just bumbled.

Bumbling fool?

Bumbling man in love.

And of course, there is that scene in Batman Returns in which Alfred brings him that cold soup and Keaton's Bruce spits it out. When Alfred says "it's Vischyssoise" and the camera cuts to Bruce with that dumbfounded look on his face...:facepalm
I still don't understand what exactly was the purpose of that other than making Bruce look silly and awkward.

I don't get it.

First you said that "it would have been great if this was all just for show" and now you need further reasons to find those scenes good.

But well, it was obvious, again, that Bruce is an obssessive man. So much that his concentration was all about the research at the moment. Again, very strange you didn't get this one either.

<Sigh>

Bruce was concentrating so hard he wasnt really thinking about the food Alfred gave him and his mind told him it would be hot food he registered cold when he ate it and was surprised.

WHAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT??

I suspect it's not hard to understand.

But somehow my comment about both Bruces being "intelligent but sometimes bumblers" was taken as a heavy criticism on Christian Bale's performance - he could be seen as 'inferior' - that needed full defense.

Its a light hearted moment but so what? Batman can afford to have them i think it brilliantly shows Keatons range and his sometimes too intense concentration throughout the movies.

We can forgive Nice Coat, we can forgive Vischyssoise .

 

[Fenrir]

In B89 batman gave as good as he got though Joker, of course, was far more on the offensive killing the models,the museam hijack ect) batman shot back by blowing up axis chemicals, breaking the Jokers chemical code (if thats not smart to you you must be a genuis yourself) ect.

I never said Keaton's Batman wasn't smart. Of course he was. I said he just wasn't the smartest of all the Batmen.

Batman v Joker is not just a clash of personality its also a clash of INTELLIGENCE...

I hardly think Batman and Joker's rivalry is a battle of intelligence. That is more relevant to villains like The Riddler. No, the battle between Batman and Joker is so much more than that - it's a clash of ideals, of what each man ultimately represents and fights for. Where Batman is the symbol for reason, justice, order and repression of one's darkest impulses, the Joker stands for lawlessness, chaos, anarchy, insanity and a complete defiance of all moral standards. This is what sets TDK apart from B89. Batman and Joker pit their beliefs, convictions and principles against one another instead of just their wits. Pretty much every single plot of the Joker aimed at Batman was about putting Batman's ideals to the test. In TDK, the conflict between Batman and the Joker simply has a much more grander scope than just 'save the city' or 'stop the villain'.

and unlike Soze,Terminator and Co none of them have a complete opposite foe who matches them every step of the way.

Batman may be the complete opposite of the Joker, but that most certainly does not mean he can play tit-for-tat or match every move of the Joker. Batman is a hero who has superimposed on himself certain limits and rules of conduct, whereas The Joker subscribes to no such personal restrictions.

Easily yes, Keaton was bumbling but he had the AIR OF INTELLIGENCE whats so hard about this concept for people to understand??

That's a clear contradiction. You admit Keaton was bumbling (also meaning clumsy) yet say he had an 'air of intelligence'? What kind of intelligence are you talking about?

Robert Downys Stark ,Adam west (yes it was camp but it was there) and Kilmer had it without the script telling you a pile of tecno speak or over the top feats. And its not always the script or the things the hero does but how he portrays himself Keaton was easily the best balanced even when not just the acting and if you want it from the script how about repairing the batmobile to breaking jokers code,to redirecting penguins missiles ect ect ect you cant compare this to LUCIUS making a glorified radar device without him Batman would be left sitting in a room wondering what to do next.

There were lots of times in the Nolan films in which Batman didn't resort to Fox for help. There goes your dimwitted 'he would be left sitting in a room wondering what to do next' theory.

Face it Bale looked amazing as Bruce but they made the mistake of thinking that was all that mattered if they added the Air kilmer,keaton,west or RDJ had they would have struck gold as it was Bales Batman was a aman in a suit outlet for rage (shouting and running about hitting people with few results against joker) and his bruce was a determined and slightly shrewd guy who relied far to much on others for results thats not batman for me.

You must have seen like some super-special abridged versions for children with ADD of the Nolan Batman films if that is what you concluded after watching them.

 

[Fenrir]

Absolutely. He fails at it. At that point it has been shown that Bruce Wayne lacks of social skills. He can't eat his soup properly in front of Vicki. This Bruce Wayne also has this hurt child inside (Vicki says that he still looks like the night his parents were killed). We're talking about a man that without a mask has a lot of vulnerability (just like Bale's Bruce in the restaurant scene, I don't see why you think of that as being "inferior"), a kid that feels he needs protection all the time (that's why he keeps lying unnecessarily all the time).

It's quite strange you didn't get that.

No, I do get it. I raised that point because I find it completely hypocritical on part of posters like nathaniel (and their fellow Burtonites) when Bale's Batman/Bruce Wayne gets nagged on endlessly for resorting to Fox or not going toe to toe with the Joker, when their own preferred version of the character is, like as you said, a vulnerable kid who feels naked without protection and lacks the requisite social skills and confidence to publicly present himself without looking like a fumbling dork.

That was confident? He was like a school girl bumping into Brad Pitt. t:

I didn't see him screaming or panicking or fainting like schoolgirls would. He held a decent conversation with her. He only had trouble when he was trying to explain what exactly he was doing there without tarnishing his image in her eyes.

And then he wanted to crawl under the soil when the two models called him.

Not because it would mean risking losing his girl. He thought he already did when he saw Rachel with Finch at the courthouse. No, Bruce felt embarrassed because Rachel knew him more intimately than anyone else being a childhood friend. He didn't want her to get the idea that he was living the high life when he was supposed to be helping her fight crime and corruption with her just like his parents did.

Unlike you, I understand him. The man is in love. When you're like that, bumbling doesn't make you inferior.

In B89 maybe. But in BB, it was about far more than just "oh s**t, my would-be-girlfriend saw me, now I'll get to date her!".

If that's the case then he should have gone all cocky, "Hey, Rach, dear, how've ya been? Ya look smoking hot. Look, sorry I gotta go with these two girls, I don't even remember their names. But I'll call ya tomorrow, don't despair."

Why would he do that? He was trying to erase his playboy image, not reinforce it. Being calm and confident doesn't mean acting like Hugh Hefner all the time.

I don't get it.

First you said that "it would have been great if this was all just for show" and now you need further reasons to find those scenes good.

You misunderstood. When I said "it would have been great if this was all just for show", I meant Bruce playing it as a charade, fumbling around like that to create a false public image to throw off suspicion, just like how Bale's Bruce uses the playboy facade or more appropriately, the TAS Batman/Bruce Wayne.

But well, it was obvious, again, that Bruce is an obssessive man. So much that his concentration was all about the research at the moment. Again, very strange you didn't get this one either.

Bruce is also a very serious, sober man. I doubt such a break of concentration would result in a moment of unintended hilarity like the dumbfounded "Vischyssoise" look. Heck, Alfred looked and sounded more serious and pissed off when he said "it's supposed to be cold".

But somehow my comment about both Bruces being "intelligent but sometimes bumblers" was taken as a heavy criticism on Christian Bale's performance - he could be seen as 'inferior' - that needed full defense.

Not at all. You attribute the nervousness of both men to the point that they are in love, when it is about much more than just that in the case of Bale's Bruce.

We can forgive Nice Coat, we can forgive Vischyssoise .

Yeah! How dare Batman say stupid, dumb and corny one-liners like 'Nice Coat' or 'Eat floor, high fiber'?!

 

[Fenrir]

<Sigh>

Bruce was concentrating so hard he wasnt really thinking about the food Alfred gave him and his mind told him it would be hot food he registered cold when he ate it and was surprised.

WHAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT??

Its a light hearted moment but so what? Batman can afford to have them i think it brilliantly shows Keatons range and his sometimes too intense concentration throughout the movies.

Yes, Keaton's Bruce is such an obsessive, brooding and tortured character that when he is interrupted during moments of inexplicably intense concentration, he looks like this:

 

[El Payaso]

No, I do get it. I raised that point because I find it completely hypocritical on part of posters like nathaniel (and their fellow Burtonites) when Bale's Batman/Bruce Wayne gets nagged on endlessly for resorting to Fox or not going toe to toe with the Joker, when their own preferred version of the character is, like as you said, a vulnerable kid who feels naked without protection and lacks the requisite social skills and confidence to publicly present himself without looking like a fumbling dork.

Oh, I see. So your attitude was against those posters but good old El Payaso got all entangled in between.

But well, in fact my point is that both vesions shared a lot of common characteristics. But in all honesty it is you who sound all defensive before the mere idea of both versions being similar in certain aspects.

Vulnerable doesn&#8217;t equal fool or inferior as you have been claiming to no end. Nor it&#8217;s being a fumbling (bumbling?) dork. You use those terms to irritate people and they will take it back.

I didn't see him screaming or panicking or fainting like schoolgirls would. He held a decent conversation with her. He only had trouble when he was trying to explain what exactly he was doing there without tarnishing his image in her eyes.

He was all troubled and in no case he &#8220;decided&#8221; to stop being the cocky playboy, but he was totally disarmed beyond his will and... oh, shall I say it? ...vulnerable.

Not because it would mean risking losing his girl. He thought he already did when he saw Rachel with Finch at the courthouse. No, Bruce felt embarrassed because Rachel knew him more intimately than anyone else being a childhood friend. He didn't want her to get the idea that he was living the high life when he was supposed to be helping her fight crime and corruption with her just like his parents did.

Yep. He bumbled while feeling all that.

In B89 maybe. But in BB, it was about far more than just "oh s**t, my would-be-girlfriend saw me, now I'll get to date her!".

Far more doesn&#8217;t mean it wasn&#8217;t that. Because it was. If he weren&#8217;t in love he wouldn&#8217;t have bumbled before Rachel at that point no matter how important revealing his true persona could be.

Why would he do that? He was trying to erase his playboy image, not reinforce it. Being calm and confident doesn't mean acting like Hugh Hefner all the time.

His problem was that he was caught in between the true Bruce and the cocky playboy. That got him disarmed and... oh, jesus, again... vulnerable.

You misunderstood. When I said "it would have been great if this was all just for show", I meant Bruce playing it as a charade, fumbling around like that to create a false public image to throw off suspicion, just like how Bale's Bruce uses the playboy facade or more appropriately, the TAS Batman/Bruce Wayne.

Oh yeah. I think I already covered the point of Bruce being an angry hurt and vulnerable kid on the inside. He wasn&#8217;t about creating a false image in front of Vicky Vale, that&#8217;s why he behaved like that. It was him doing what he had never done since his parents died; exposing his true self. Now, how does that make him &#8217;inferior&#8217; escapes my understanding.

Bruce is also a very serious, sober man. I doubt such a break of concentration would result in a moment of unintended hilarity like the dumbfounded "Vischyssoise" look. Heck, Alfred looked and sounded more serious and pissed off when he said "it's supposed to be cold".

And I doubt Batman in his first mission would go after an unnecessary one-liner like Nice Coat, but it&#8217;s the way the writers did it. Our doubts are off the map.

And of course Alfred was pissed, he was the one focusing on cooking for the man, he was focused on the research, as I already said.

Again, how someone being unintentionally hilarious in life is considered &#8216;inferior&#8217; is a mistery.

Not at all. You attribute the nervousness of both men to the point that they are in love, when it is about much more than just that in the case of Bale's Bruce.

I just attribute to both being bumbling at one point. You attribute that observation to an orchestrated anti-Bale hate campaign you feel called to unmask.

Yeah! How dare Batman say stupid, dumb and corny one-liners like 'Nice Coat' or 'Eat floor, high fiber'?!

I ignore how dare he, I just know both versions did it. And since you exposed the point yourself I hope you won&#8217;t spend the next poage denying it or attributing Bale&#8217;s Batman a number of more important and &#8216;superior&#8217; reasons to make a joke.

 

[El Payaso]

Yes, Keaton's Bruce is such an obsessive, brooding and tortured character that when he is interrupted during moments of inexplicably intense concentration, he looks like this:

Awww, but isn't he cute even when distracted?


Nevertheless, I feel invited to follow this elementary school game of "My actor is cuter than yours!!!" and post a couple of pics of how Bale's Bruce Wayne talking to Rachel.

By comparision, Keaton looks seriously concerned.

And I have some really funny ones of Bale acting like a playboy at his birthday and some hilarious ones of him as Batman.

BUT

we could also bring some dignity to the whole conversation, how about that?

 

[Nina7]

My favorite Batman Begins review was from the New York Times and Manohla Dargis. She explains why Bale is the best Bruce Wayne/Batman:

Mr. Bale even improves on Michael Keaton, who donned Batman's cape both in Tim Burton's 1989 "Batman" and its funhouse sequel three years later, and gave the character a jolt of menace. What Mr. Keaton couldn't bring to the role, and what Mr. Bale conveys effortlessly, is Bruce Wayne's air of casual entitlement, the aristocratic hauteur that is the necessary complement of Batman's obsessive megalomania.

http://movies.nytimes.com/2005/06/15/movies/15batm.html

Bruce Wayne is a blue blood patrician from the finest family in Gotham. I never got that from the other Batman actors. It may be a somewhat minor point, but it's always bugged me.

 

[Fenrir]

But well, in fact my point is that both vesions shared a lot of common characteristics. But in all honesty it is you who sound all defensive before the mere idea of both versions being similar in certain aspects.

Then maybe you should improve your reading comprehension. If my points were about showing how Bale's Bruce Wayne is superior than Keaton's, how does that make me defensive?

Vulnerable doesn’t equal fool or inferior as you have been claiming to no end. Nor it’s being a fumbling (bumbling?) dork. You use those terms to irritate people and they will take it back.

Yes, it does mean inferior in certain situations. If Keaton's Bruce is so helpless in front of Vicki that he couldn't say a bare few words without making a complete fool of himself in spite of planning to do so, that is inferior. There's a world of difference between that and Bale's Bruce being caught by surprise in a an embarrassing situation. It's a pity you constantly fail to grasp that.

He was all troubled and in no case he “decided” to stop being the cocky playboy, but he was totally disarmed beyond his will and... oh, shall I say it? ...vulnerable.

Stop as in halt his playboy ruse for the moment while he was talking to Rachel.

Yep. He bumbled while feeling all that.

Of course he did. But he wasn't bumbling just because he was facing his girlfriend like Keaton did. It was about much more.

Far more doesn’t mean it wasn’t that. Because it was. If he weren’t in love he wouldn’t have bumbled before Rachel at that point no matter how important revealing his true persona could be.

It was not just love, but also about his image in the eyes of his childhood friend as a worthy heir to the Wayne philanthropic legacy. And it's clear that he only really tries to explain himself when Rachel says "what choice do I have and you're too busy 'swimming'".

His problem was that he was caught in between the true Bruce and the cocky playboy. That got him disarmed and... oh, jesus, again... vulnerable.

It's still nothing compared to the blunders of Keaton's Bruce who makes an ass out of himself almost every single time he speaks to a woman.

Oh yeah. I think I already covered the point of Bruce being an angry hurt and vulnerable kid on the inside. He wasn’t about creating a false image in front of Vicky Vale, that’s why he behaved like that. It was him doing what he had never done since his parents died; exposing his true self. Now, how does that make him ’inferior’ escapes my understanding.

Because there is no reason for him to fumble like that. It's true that he was about to expose himself in front of Vicki, but what really intimidated him was her possible reaction to it. Will she still stay with him now that she's found out he's a crazy costumed vigilante? Or does he keep his secret concealed? All this for Vale who he met, what, a couple of days ago? There is nothing really of great value at stake here which is supposed to give him the jitters. But then again, Keaton's Bruce was always poor at social encounters. That's something Bale's Bruce does quite effortlessly.

And I doubt Batman in his first mission would go after an unnecessary one-liner like Nice Coat, but it’s the way the writers did it. Our doubts are off the map.

And of course Alfred was pissed, he was the one focusing on cooking for the man, he was focused on the research, as I already said.

Still, it is hilarious and very wrong when Alfred looks and sounds more pissed than Batman.

Again, how someone being unintentionally hilarious in life is considered ‘inferior’ is a mistery.

Bruce Wayne is not just 'someone'. In your own words, he is an obsessive, intense, tortured and brooding individual. It most certainly is 'inferior' if such a character comes off as unintentionally hilarious in many different situations. Especially when he is his true self rather than just in public.

I just attribute to both being bumbling at one point. You attribute that observation to an orchestrated anti-Bale hate campaign you feel called to unmask.

Uhm, so?

I ignore how dare he, I just know both versions did it. And since you exposed the point yourself I hope you won’t spend the next poage denying it or attributing Bale’s Batman a number of more important and ‘superior’ reasons to make a joke.

And I hope you will actually read what I wrote instead of simply wasting the next page plugging your ears going 'LALALALATHEYBOTHFUMBLEDICANTHEARYOULALALALA!'

 

[Fenrir]

Awww, but isn't he cute even when distracted?


Nevertheless, I feel invited to follow this elementary school game of "My actor is cuter than yours!!!" and post a couple of pics of how Bale's Bruce Wayne talking to Rachel.

By comparision, Keaton looks seriously concerned.

And I have some really funny ones of Bale acting like a playboy at his birthday and some hilarious ones of him as Batman.

BUT

we could also bring some dignity to the whole conversation, how about that?

There's a huge difference between taking a capture of an entire shot from the film as it is and freeze-framing an actor from a lengthy scene while he is talking just to make him look ridiculous. You thought this was just some kind of a joke and nothing else, and that's where you prove your utter failure to comprehend my point behind that post.

When he is in the cave with Alfred or by himself, such silly antics are completely uncharacteristic of Bruce Wayne, especially in terms of the words people often use to describe Keaton's Wayne, or even Bruce Wayne in general. Everything from his voice, his reaction and that dumbass look Keaton gives ill fits a person who is supposed to be brooding, tortured, obsessive and/or intense. Remember that scene in the beginning of Batman Returns when he is in the manor silently waiting by himself. One can see that even during that moment he is in a state of deep concentration or contemplation and even then he is interrupted by the light of the signal. But you don't see him make a fool out of himself then now, did you? Which clearly shows a break in concentration doesn't necessarily result in unintentional hilarity, particularly for a sober and serious personality like Bruce Wayne.

 

[Fenrir]

My favorite Batman Begins review was from the New York Times and Manohla Dargis. She explains why Bale is the best Bruce Wayne/Batman:

http://movies.nytimes.com/2005/06/15/movies/15batm.html

Bruce Wayne is a blue blood patrician from the finest family in Gotham. I never got that from the other Batman actors. It may be a somewhat minor point, but it's always bugged me.

Kilmer had a little bit of the aristocrat feel as well but not to the extent Bale did. Clooney would've done great in that regard too had he not decided to play it on the lines of the everyday common-man approach (which Bruce Wayine is anything but) like Keaton did.