The Clinton Thread

[The Senator]

I see the enthusiasim on this forum is astronomically high for Hillary

Well, to put things in perspective, I've been to about six events where Hillary Clinton spoke.... so any first-hand accounts in this thread aren't really going to have an effect on me....

 

[kang604]

how about elaboration, othwise ill agree that you suck

first of all

i am not neccessarily an "outsider". i have lived part-time in NYC for the past 5 years and lived in phoenix when i was younger for about 4 years. i am 22 years old so i have spent a good chunk of my life, especially my adult life, in the USA.

secondly, the American public has elected a president with one of the worst approval ratings in recent memory. Not once, but twice. Bush is scorned in the media, and ridiculed as one of the worst presidents the US has elected. Even the American people that voted him in hate Bush.

Now you have the chance, after 8 years of a downward economic spiral and 4,000+ casualties in a war that did not need to be fought, to move in a different direction, whether it be Hillary or Obama. To move in a direction that would involve repairing your economy and ending a war that has cost so many lives and heartache for people all across the globe.

Now you guys have the chance, and I cant vote because I am not a US citizen, but YOU guys have the chance to make a difference, but I fear that if John McCain becomes the next president of the United States, we will see more of the same. The war will not end, and more and more lives will be senselessly lost.

That is my elaboration. And I am not "talking down" to Americans, I love this country too and I wouldn't live here if I didn't.

 

[Marx]

first of all

i am not neccessarily an "outsider". i have lived part-time in NYC for the past 5 years and lived in phoenix when i was younger for about 4 years. i am 22 years old so i have spent a good chunk of my life, especially my adult life, in the USA.

secondly, the American public has elected a president with one of the worst approval ratings in recent memory. Not once, but twice. Bush is scorned in the media, and ridiculed as one of the worst presidents the US has elected. Even the American people that voted him in hate Bush.

Now you have the chance, after 8 years of a downward economic spiral and 4,000+ casualties in a war that did not need to be fought, to move in a different direction, whether it be Hillary or Obama. To move in a direction that would involve repairing your economy and ending a war that has cost so many lives and heartache for people all across the globe.

Now you guys have the chance, and I cant vote because I am not a US citizen, but YOU guys have the chance to make a difference, but I fear that if John McCain becomes the next president of the United States, we will see more of the same. The war will not end, and more and more lives will be senselessly lost.

That is my elaboration. And I am not "talking down" to Americans, I love this country too and I wouldn't live here if I didn't.

Let's not forget that Bush didn't win the first time, Al Gore did. And let's not forget the second time that Bush narrowly won because of scare tactics and fear mongering.

 

[kang604]

Let's not forget that Bush didn't win the first time, Al Gore did. And let's not forget the second time that Bush narrowly won because of scare tactics and fear mongering.

i understand, but my point is that McCain would be more of the same, more of the same of a President who currently holds something like a 28% approval rating.

 

[The Senator]

secondly, the American public has elected a president with one of the worst approval ratings in recent memory. Not once, but twice.

His approval ratings when he was re-elected were at or slightly above 50%. They weren't perfect, but they weren't nearly as bad as the lower-30% approval ratings he's been stuck at since late-2006.

Bush is scorned in the media, and ridiculed as one of the worst presidents the US has elected. Even the American people that voted him in hate Bush.

Truman was also scorned by the media. He also had the lowest approval ratings of any U.S. president-- but history regards him as one of the ten-best Presidents we've ever had.

Now you have the chance, after 8 years of a downward economic spiral and 4,000+ casualties in a war that did not need to be fought, to move in a different direction, whether it be Hillary or Obama. To move in a direction that would involve repairing your economy and ending a war that has cost so many lives and heartache for people all across the globe.

But where is the evidence that Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama will lead us in the right direction? What if they screw up just as badly as Bush has?

You do realize that both of them have said that the majority of our troops will be unable to come home until 2013, correct? So if that promise sticks out, what's to say they'll be in a good position to come home in 2012? What if the war escalates to a new extreme? Wouldn't that give prospective Presidents Romney or Jindal fuel for the fire?

ROMNEY: Obama promised to get our troops out, and in the process, he's made them more vulnerable to attacks.

JINDAL: Hillary has spent four years trying to get our troops out when she should have focused on the mission. Now we've got an even bigger disaster on our hands than we did four years ago.

Don't you think the American people would be slightly turned off?

If the Democrat promises to get our troops out of Iraq, but fails, don't you think Americans will say "enough's enough" and kick their asses out? Following two years of failed promises to do the exact same thing by the Democratic controlled Congress, and four years with Obama or Hillary in the same boat, Americans will say "**** it" and vote for the Republican out of spite.

Then say McCain becomes President and is faced with the exact same situation. He keeps us in there for four years, and things escalate out of control. Don't you think that would reflect negatively on him? Don't you think that would give Democrats an edge in 2012?

Now you guys have the chance, and I cant vote because I am not a US citizen, but YOU guys have the chance to make a difference, but I fear that if John McCain becomes the next president of the United States, we will see more of the same. The war will not end, and more and more lives will be senselessly lost.

Again, show me evidence that Hillary or Barack will end this war, because neither one of them have a record which proves they are against this war. Hillary voted to authorize it, while Obama has consistently voted to keep funding it. Meanwhile, they both said at a debate this past fall that they'd have to keep troops in Iraq until 2013. That doesn't indicate that they're going to end the war. The only indication you have that they'll end the war is what they say in their speeches. And in 2000, George W. Bush said he would scale back the U.S.'s role in the international community... we see how far that went, don't we?

We've had two presidents who have served eight years in a row. It's often rare to see that happen, but in our nation's history, we have had few, if any, cases where three presidents have served consecutive eight year terms. If history is any indication, whoever wins this election will lose in 2012. I'd rather McCain be on that end then Hillary or Obama. I'd rather avoid Presidents Romney and Jindal, under any means necessary.

 

[The Senator]

Let's not forget that Bush didn't win the first time, Al Gore did. And let's not forget the second time that Bush narrowly won because of scare tactics and fear mongering.

Al Gore won the popular vote. The electoral college is the only thing which determines the winner of the election. Hence, Bush won by a technicality.

 

[Excel]

Calm down, every country talks **** about other countries problems...and in doing so it always make you seem as if you think your counties better. King was saying something a lot of Americans are thinkings.

 

[Zen]

Again, it has nothing to do with having an opinion. It has to do with people talking down to us like we are children being scolded for playing with matches.

And Zen, when it comes to our elections, only our opinions do matter. Would you prefer we let foreign citizens vote in our elections?

I think part of being a true patriot is having the maturity to handle criticisms constructively and reflect objectively on... objective opinions about our country.

and no, they shouldn't be able to vote in our elections. but they may have some information that may cause me to research and understand something from a more "worldly" angle that *might* affect how i vote.

...in the hopes of becoming a fully rounded, highly rational, adult American.

 

[Zen]

His approval ratings when he was re-elected were at or slightly above 50%. They weren't perfect, but they weren't nearly as bad as the lower-30% approval ratings he's been stuck at since late-2006.



Truman was also scorned by the media. He also had the lowest approval ratings of any U.S. president-- but history regards him as one of the ten-best Presidents we've ever had.



But where is the evidence that Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama will lead us in the right direction? What if they screw up just as badly as Bush has?

You do realize that both of them have said that the majority of our troops will be unable to come home until 2013, correct? So if that promise sticks out, what's to say they'll be in a good position to come home in 2012? What if the war escalates to a new extreme? Wouldn't that give prospective Presidents Romney or Jindal fuel for the fire?

ROMNEY: Obama promised to get our troops out, and in the process, he's made them more vulnerable to attacks.

JINDAL: Hillary has spent four years trying to get our troops out when she should have focused on the mission. Now we've got an even bigger disaster on our hands than we did four years ago.

Don't you think the American people would be slightly turned off?

If the Democrat promises to get our troops out of Iraq, but fails, don't you think Americans will say "enough's enough" and kick their asses out? Following two years of failed promises to do the exact same thing by the Democratic controlled Congress, and four years with Obama or Hillary in the same boat, Americans will say "**** it" and vote for the Republican out of spite.

Then say McCain becomes President and is faced with the exact same situation. He keeps us in there for four years, and things escalate out of control. Don't you think that would reflect negatively on him? Don't you think that would give Democrats an edge in 2012?



Again, show me evidence that Hillary or Barack will end this war, because neither one of them have a record which proves they are against this war. Hillary voted to authorize it, while Obama has consistently voted to keep funding it. Meanwhile, they both said at a debate this past fall that they'd have to keep troops in Iraq until 2013. That doesn't indicate that they're going to end the war. The only indication you have that they'll end the war is what they say in their speeches. And in 2000, George W. Bush said he would scale back the U.S.'s role in the international community... we see how far that went, don't we?

We've had two presidents who have served eight years in a row. It's often rare to see that happen, but in our nation's history, we have had few, if any, cases where three presidents have served consecutive eight year terms. If history is any indication, whoever wins this election will lose in 2012. I'd rather McCain be on that end then Hillary or Obama. I'd rather avoid Presidents Romney and Jindal, under any means necessary.

when criticizing the democratic candidates (and to some lesser extent McCain as well) you cite such open ended hypotheticals i wonder where exactly your support for people now or in the fute gets foundation?

i mean any candidate has unforseen variables and probabilities. It is understandable that you could say that inexperience is a marker for playing the odds...

but for the love of Hector this war could go on for 20 years... effectively making every candidate for 5 more elections face such a hypothetically dangerous political landscape regardless of their experience.


Personally, i want a full phased withdrawl in one years time. Im just not going to get that. as socialized as i can be on such issues as healthcare... i dont think democracy needs to be patriated and fostered by another government such as ours... we need to focus on domestic policy, economy and security. Not Iraqii's. there will be turmoil with such a plan...

as much as you say throw the democrats under the bus this term... the war could be equally a politically poisonous threat for mark warner and everyone else in the same way it is now.

People want out. i dont think this will change. if we get attacked we will want to fight the real threat. if we see progress we will want to leave... if it continues to get hairy over there we will want to leave. i do not see how it will be different in 4 years.

its not going to be easier for a democrat to win in 4 years than it is right now. if bush didnt make it easy enough to get some blue blood in the white house... McCain will certainly not be able to stir up any more emotion.

especially if so many democrats (and especially first time voters) are disenfranchized by losing this time. and imagine if the right wing gets a serious candidate in 4 years they can all fall behind emphatically? John McCain is as weak a candidate as we can get... disguise it all you want with the bi-partisan rhetoric... he is a weak republican candidate whos current strength is only being butressed by the sheer bedlam going on in the democratic primary.

 

[Matt]

I think part of being a true patriot is having the maturity to handle criticisms constructively and reflect objectively on... objective opinions about our country.

and no, they shouldn't be able to vote in our elections. but they may have some information that may cause me to research and understand something from a more "worldly" angle that *might* affect how i vote.

...in the hopes of becoming a fully rounded, highly rational, adult American.

Key word is maturity. I discuss American politics all the time with my "sister" from France. Do you know what the difference between our discussions and kang's post was? She doesn't speak like Americans are children who need to be lectured and scolded for being "stupid enough" to elect someone. Do you honestly not see how that is insulting?

 

[Zen]

Key word is maturity. I discuss American politics all the time with my "sister" from France. Do you know what the difference between our discussions and kang's post was? She doesn't speak like Americans are children who need to be lectured and scolded for being "stupid enough" to elect someone. Do you honestly not see how that is insulting?

I understand what your saying. i guess i should back up here and say you are free to feel insulted by others, especially those who do not seem to have the same grasp of a situation as you do, in your opinion.

i totally understand that. i think Kangs post isn't necessarily the best example of a scolding one, but i see how your approaching it.

when i read over Kangs post i imagine 3 different people reading it. those who support McCain, those Who support someone else and those who have yet to decide.

If I supported McCain i would engage people like Kang and disect why they feel this way... probably with a zealous force if i wasnt carefull true, investigating people who may not be voters or are foreigners may seem unproductive, and pointless... but sometimes outside opinions offer some clarity otherwise unattainable. though Kang is claiming ties to the US so perhaps we have already run off the rails on this discussion. i might glean a more efficient avenue of attack against his ilk in the future... cause if history teaches us anything, **** rolls downhill.

If i have yet to support anyone, i would be interested... in hearing more as to why they are so Awe struck at the candidate, and people choosing said candidate.

If i supported another candidate i might let it pass and not feel a need to flesh it out. i might throw "thumbs up" on them desperately seeking mob rule against this candidate... send this kid flowers and chocolates... trace their IP and stand outside their house with a boombox above my head piping the Obama "yes we can" will.i.am song.... i would feel dangerously stupid being out in canada doing this,

but Obamamaniacs might do strange things.

Clintonites would send them a sniper rifle or something, cause canadians are arguably good with them... might offer her some cover.


this is all based on the assumption that there was more for kang to say of course, which i asked him/her to go ahead and cough up or proceed to suck.

if he/she had not, then i would agree with you, foreigners (and americans too)who voice their opinion so bluntly and callously without backing it up somehow, are no better than your garden variety garden trolls or underbridge sludge goblins. At that point i would have been insulted as an informed politico... that others would come in here and drop their droppings without explaining how its going to turn into fertalizer.

 

[Kelly]

In all honesty Zen, we have quite a few around here who are not American citizens, who do speak down to posters, pretty much in all posts.....so if some seem sensitive to that, its probably because it happens quite often on these threads.........

So with the history that is here, there isn't a lot of patience with this type of thing....

We have some that are very intelligent, but tend to put opinions out there that could very well work in their own country, but are kind of ignorant of how they would work in the US....

We have some that are simply put...."Haters of the United States" and their posts are very clear in their motive.....

But for someone to come along and say....in words that pretty much are saying..."I don't see how Americans can be so stupid....." is not an opinion to me.......its ignorance.

 

[Marx]

Al Gore won the popular vote. The electoral college is the only thing which determines the winner of the election. Hence, Bush won by a technicality.

I'm aware he only won the popular vote. I was making the argument that the majority of people in this country DID NOT vote for Bush.

 

[Zen]

In all honesty Zen, we have quite a few around here who are not American citizens, who do speak down to posters, pretty much in all posts.....so if some seem sensitive to that, its probably because it happens quite often on these threads.........

So with the history that is here, there isn't a lot of patience with this type of thing....

We have some that are very intelligent, but tend to put opinions out there that could very well work in their own country, but are kind of ignorant of how they would work in the US....

We have some that are simply put...."Haters of the United States" and their posts are very clear in their motive.....

But for someone to come along and say....in words that pretty much are saying..."I don't see how Americans can be so stupid....." is not an opinion to me.......its ignorance.

Well you've put forth some good arguments to engage those posters on, but to go ahead and blanket foreign posters like that because people are running out of patience is indicative of what i think is wrong with some of our foreign policy.

honestly, there are plenty of americans who call each other stupid. i am not going to specifically garner more frustration with a foreigner than an american simply because people are being thoughtless or petty... All humans are capable of this equally, not just foreigners. as we are all capable of discussion and fleshing out the different views that have brought us here.

 

[kang604]

Key word is maturity. I discuss American politics all the time with my "sister" from France. Do you know what the difference between our discussions and kang's post was? She doesn't speak like Americans are children who need to be lectured and scolded for being "stupid enough" to elect someone. Do you honestly not see how that is insulting?

i dont know where you're getting this idea that i am scolding or calling out americans for being "stupid enough" to vote for john mccain.

what i said was i cannot UNDERSTAND why you would vote for him. i cannot UNDERSTAND why you would vote for a candidate that promises more of the same for the next 4-8 years?

and jmanspice, i dont know if hillary or obama will lead america in the right direction. no one knows, no one can predict the future. but they have spoken against the war, and have made it a backbone of both their campaigns that they wish to begin withdrawal of troops from Iraq almost immediately. Now, no-one knows if this will actually happen. Maybe Obama and Clinton are taking us all on a wild goose chase and they have no intention of doing what they claim. But I would like to think that this will not be the case.

With John McCain, you KNOW what you are going to get over the next 4-8 years. More war, more death, and more money spent on funding the military overseas that could be used to help rebuild America's infrastructure.

No candidate is perfect. Democrat or Republican. But given the choices, and given the current state of the USA and the 8 years of ******** you have suffered with George Bush...

like i said, i cannot UNDERSTAND why John McCain should be the next president of the US.

i am not some arrogant foreigner with my nose to the sky. I live here too, and the decisions this country makes affect everyone around the globe, especially my home country (canada). and while i do not have the right to vote (nor do i think i should), i do have the right to an opinion.

 

[Tron5000]

I'm aware he only won the popular vote. I was making the argument that the majority of people in this country DID NOT vote for Bush.

No, but he did get a majority in 2004, something that Bill Clinton was never able to accomplish. In fact, there has not been a Democrat with a majority of the popular vote since Carter in '76, yet 3 Republicans can claim that in that time span. And it appears that the trend will continue for the Dems this year.

 

[Tron5000]

Edit:Whoops. DP.

 

[Kelly]

Well you've put forth some good arguments to engage those posters on, but to go ahead and blanket foreign posters like that because people are running out of patience is indicative of what i think is wrong with some of our foreign policy.

honestly, there are plenty of americans who call each other stupid. i am not going to specifically garner more frustration with a foreigner than an american simply because people are being thoughtless or petty... All humans are capable of this equally, not just foreigners. as we are all capable of discussion and fleshing out the different views that have brought us here.

I take every poster individually......we have posters from all over the world, we have mods from all over the world. So board wide we have an enormous amount of awesome posters from all walks of life, and all backgrounds.

It does seem that in this particular forum, we have a number of posters from other countries that do enjoy slamming the US when they get a chance......now trying to figure out motives is a tricky thing.......so I look at the history of the poster and make a call from that...........the scenarios I put above tend to be overwhelmingly in this forum, not all over the board.....but in this forum more specifically. So, its not surprising that an American on this forum will not take kindly to a generalization w/o solid backing being thrown out there...........

I have no problem with an opinion being put out there.......but I tend to strike a little stronger at a generalization without substance from a poster. Citizen of this country or not.....

 

[Excel]

Cant we all just get along??

 

[Matt]

Well you've put forth some good arguments to engage those posters on, but to go ahead and blanket foreign posters like that because people are running out of patience is indicative of what i think is wrong with some of our foreign policy.

honestly, there are plenty of americans who call each other stupid. i am not going to specifically garner more frustration with a foreigner than an american simply because people are being thoughtless or petty... All humans are capable of this equally, not just foreigners. as we are all capable of discussion and fleshing out the different views that have brought us here.

It is like you're family Zen. You can call your own mother a *****, but if someone from outside of the family does it, those are fighting words.

 

[Marx]

Cant we all just get along??

Doesn't it require more of an effort to get along than to just continue fighting?

 

[Matt]

i dont know where you're getting this idea that i am scolding or calling out americans for being "stupid enough" to vote for john mccain.

what i said was i cannot UNDERSTAND why you would vote for him. i cannot UNDERSTAND why you would vote for a candidate that promises more of the same for the next 4-8 years?

and jmanspice, i dont know if hillary or obama will lead america in the right direction. no one knows, no one can predict the future. but they have spoken against the war, and have made it a backbone of both their campaigns that they wish to begin withdrawal of troops from Iraq almost immediately. Now, no-one knows if this will actually happen. Maybe Obama and Clinton are taking us all on a wild goose chase and they have no intention of doing what they claim. But I would like to think that this will not be the case.

With John McCain, you KNOW what you are going to get over the next 4-8 years. More war, more death, and more money spent on funding the military overseas that could be used to help rebuild America's infrastructure.

No candidate is perfect. Democrat or Republican. But given the choices, and given the current state of the USA and the 8 years of ******** you have suffered with George Bush...

like i said, i cannot UNDERSTAND why John McCain should be the next president of the US.

i am not some arrogant foreigner with my nose to the sky. I live here too, and the decisions this country makes affect everyone around the globe, especially my home country (canada). and while i do not have the right to vote (nor do i think i should), i do have the right to an opinion.

Because John McCain is not George W. Bush. Because John McCain is an individual. Or based on my reasoning for my likely vote for him...because Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton are both all flash and no substance who ran respectively on their skin color and gender.

Because I would rather endure 4 more years of a Republican who can be easily defeated in 2012, than the 20 years worth of damage Clinton or Obama will do ala Jimmy Carter.

To come in here and say "I don't understand how you can do this or that" is insulting. It is the equivilant to looking down upon someone and telling them "You're opinion is wrong and you are stupid for it."

Again, how would Canadians like it if I went to a Canadian politics message board and said "Hey, you guys are dumbasses for allowing your country to become a welfare state!"?

 

[Kelly]

speaking as a canadian living part time in the US

i cannot for the life of me understand why you guys would vote john mccain into the white house. it just astounds me.

i dont know where you're getting this idea that i am scolding or calling out americans for being "stupid enough" to vote for john mccain.

what i said was i cannot UNDERSTAND why you would vote for him. i cannot UNDERSTAND why you would vote for a candidate that promises more of the same for the next 4-8 years?

and jmanspice, i dont know if hillary or obama will lead america in the right direction. no one knows, no one can predict the future. but they have spoken against the war, and have made it a backbone of both their campaigns that they wish to begin withdrawal of troops from Iraq almost immediately. Now, no-one knows if this will actually happen. Maybe Obama and Clinton are taking us all on a wild goose chase and they have no intention of doing what they claim. But I would like to think that this will not be the case.

With John McCain, you KNOW what you are going to get over the next 4-8 years. More war, more death, and more money spent on funding the military overseas that could be used to help rebuild America's infrastructure.

No candidate is perfect. Democrat or Republican. But given the choices, and given the current state of the USA and the 8 years of ******** you have suffered with George Bush...

like i said, i cannot UNDERSTAND why John McCain should be the next president of the US.

i am not some arrogant foreigner with my nose to the sky. I live here too, and the decisions this country makes affect everyone around the globe, especially my home country (canada). and while i do not have the right to vote (nor do i think i should), i do have the right to an opinion.

first of all

i am not neccessarily an "outsider". i have lived part-time in NYC for the past 5 years and lived in phoenix when i was younger for about 4 years. i am 22 years old so i have spent a good chunk of my life, especially my adult life, in the USA.

secondly, the American public has elected a president with one of the worst approval ratings in recent memory. Not once, but twice. Bush is scorned in the media, and ridiculed as one of the worst presidents the US has elected. Even the American people that voted him in hate Bush.

Now you have the chance, after 8 years of a downward economic spiral and 4,000+ casualties in a war that did not need to be fought, to move in a different direction, whether it be Hillary or Obama. To move in a direction that would involve repairing your economy and ending a war that has cost so many lives and heartache for people all across the globe.

Now you guys have the chance, and I cant vote because I am not a US citizen, but YOU guys have the chance to make a difference, but I fear that if John McCain becomes the next president of the United States, we will see more of the same. The war will not end, and more and more lives will be senselessly lost.

That is my elaboration. And I am not "talking down" to Americans, I love this country too and I wouldn't live here if I didn't.

Well Kang, the difference between your first post, and the 2 following was substance..........had you put forth your well thought out opinion with your generalization in your first post.........then I think most would have been ..............................cool........................some might even agree.

As far as the President's approval rating, as of right now, the approval rating of Congress which has a Democrat majority is even lower.......as of right now...........................Politics sucks in the US...........and it is looking like right now, that there is not ANY candidate out there that will change that.


This is my opinion.........and I stay pretty non-partisan through all of this....makes it easier to mod this baby..................but in the end. I have a feeling that the President will be the man or woman that the American people feel they can "trust".

We will see if I'm right.....

 

[Zen]

It is like you're family Zen. You can call your own mother a *****, but if someone from outside of the family does it, those are fighting words.

well when you go and put it like that... its definately easier to agree with you





someday, when we get serious about space travel... meet other species of life perhaps, our family will be a little more inclusive.

 

[Marx]

well when you go and put it like that... its definately easier to agree with you





someday, when we get serious about space travel... meet other species of life perhaps, our family will be a little more inclusive.

It's best to start here then, don't you think?