The Clinton Thread

[The Senator]

Howard Dean may have good strategies from time to time, but he can't keep his mouth shut. If I recall correctly, it was his mouth that ended up costing him the nomination in the first place. Obviously, he hasn't learned that lesson yet.

Umm... no. He lost the nomination because the media made an issue out of a scream. Not something he said, but a sound which came out of his mouth and was projected by the microphone he was using, and was turned into a political talking point because the pundits had nothing better to do with their time.

But hey, if you want to discredit the man because he went on a late night talk show and repeated the same Democratic talking points, fine. But remember, it's because of his efforts that we have governors in states we used to never be competitive in, it's because of his efforts we won back the House and the Senate... so yeah, just throw all that out because of an appearance he made on the Daily Show where he acted like every other Democrat who goes on that show...

 

[Marx]

Romney and McCain?

Huckabee was also pretty close in a couple of the states, wasn't he?

 

[souvlaki]

I doubt it. Everyone was saying the electoral college would be gone by 2004 after the 2000 debacle.

That being said, if the Democrats were smart, they would change it to winner take all primaries and do away with super delelgates like the Republicans. Oddly enough however, if there were winner take all primaries, Hilldog would have a commanding lead and Obama likely would've been forced to drop out ages ago. Also, get rid of caucuses.

And if it were proportional on the Republican's side Huckabee probably would still be very much in the race as well. Personally, I think proportional allocation during the primary is more fair than winner take all, but it doesn't chance the fact that this primary is for the most part over, and there is no way to change what already happened.

 

[Marx]

Umm... no. He lost the nomination because the media made an issue out of a scream.

But hey, if you want to discredit the man because he went on a late night talk show and repeated the same Democratic talking points, fine. But remember, it's because of his efforts that we have governors in states we used to never be competitive in, it's because of his efforts we won back the House and the Senate... so yeah, just throw all that out because of an appearance he made on the Daily Show where he acted like every other Democrat who goes on that show...

You are underestimating the American people. It doesn't take alot of intelligence to know that people are sick of the Republican control. I believe that the Democrats would have won regardless of Dean's involvement.

As for his losing the nomination, word it however you want. He lost because of "the scream."

 

[Matt]

And if it were proportional on the Republican's side Huckabee probably would still be very much in the race as well. Personally, I think proportional allocation during the primary is more fair than winner take all, but it doesn't chance the fact that this primary is for the most part over, and there is no way to change what already happened.

If you are going to go with porportional delegates with no super delegates, then just get rid of the delegate system all together and go based on national popular vote. Of course, then you run the risk of making Florida, New Hampshire, etc, irrelevant. Winner takes all keeps small states relevant and does away with the ridiculous super delegate system.

 

[Matt]

Umm... no. He lost the nomination because the media made an issue out of a scream. Not something he said, but a sound which came out of his mouth and was projected by the microphone he was using, and was turned into a political talking point because the pundits had nothing better to do with their time.

But hey, if you want to discredit the man because he went on a late night talk show and repeated the same Democratic talking points, fine. But remember, it's because of his efforts that we have governors in states we used to never be competitive in, it's because of his efforts we won back the House and the Senate... so yeah, just throw all that out because of an appearance he made on the Daily Show where he acted like every other Democrat who goes on that show...

I will concede to you he is great at organization and fund raising, but again, he does a lot of damage through his constant attention ****ing. Come now Jman, The Daily Show is not an isolated incident. Dean makes an ass out of himself and the party basically any time he has a camera on him.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Winner take all seems a little skewed but the superdelegates are just an awful mess. That at the least should be done away with. Though I doubt that too cause politicans hate giving up any form of power. The only way I see this happening is if McCain beats Obama and the blame gets laid on this.

 

[The Senator]

As for his losing the nomination, word it however you want. He lost because of "the scream."

Again, the scream has nothing to do with him "opening up his mouth and losing the nomination because of it." He made an exclamation and was slaughtered by the pundits because it made him look "crazy."

"Ooooh, that Howard Dean, he's up there screaming! What a crazy-pants-- I guess that means he can't be President! He'll just yell all the time!"

That's a true example of the media turning a non-issue into an issue. Forget Obama's pastor, forget his "sweetie" comments... the media destroyed a man's campaign because he yelled excitedly...

Had he said something like "all women are ****es" I could see how your argument would have any merit. But it doesn't even compare to what we were discussing, which was his appearance on 'The Daily Show' when he actually said something which can at least be debated.

 

[Marx]

Again, the scream has nothing to do with him "opening up his mouth and losing the nomination because of it." He made an exclamation and was slaughtered by the pundits because it made him look "crazy."

"Ooooh, that Howard Dean, he's up there screaming! What a crazy-pants-- I guess that means he can't be President! He'll just yell all the time!"

That's a true example of the media turning a non-issue into an issue. Forget Obama's pastor, forget his "sweetie" comments... the media destroyed a man's campaign because he yelled excitedly...

Had he said something like "all women are ****es" I could see how your argument would have any merit. But it doesn't even compare to what we were discussing, which was his appearance on 'The Daily Show' when he actually said something which can at least be debated.

All I'm saying, and what Matt has said, is that his Daily Show appearance was not the first time he's made a complete a** of himself.

 

[The Senator]

I will concede to you he is great at organization and fund raising, but again, he does a lot of damage through his constant attention ****ing. Come now Jman, The Daily Show is not an isolated incident. Dean makes an ass out of himself and the party basically any time he has a camera on him.

Regardless of whether he makes an ass out of himself or not, the man's strategies are part of the reason why Democrats are regaining control of the federal government and state governments in states we typically don't win.

 

[StorminNorman]

Again, the scream has nothing to do with him "opening up his mouth and losing the nomination because of it." He made an exclamation and was slaughtered by the pundits because it made him look "crazy."

"Ooooh, that Howard Dean, he's up there screaming! What a crazy-pants-- I guess that means he can't be President! He'll just yell all the time!"

That's a true example of the media turning a non-issue into an issue. Forget Obama's pastor, forget his "sweetie" comments... the media destroyed a man's campaign because he yelled excitedly...

Had he said something like "all women are ****es" I could see how your argument would have any merit. But it doesn't even compare to what we were discussing, which was his appearance on 'The Daily Show' when he actually said something which can at least be debated.

It wasn't JUST the scream, he was losing his momentum as is - he did just get a John Edwards third in Iowa.

 

[The Senator]

All I'm saying, and what Matt has said, is that his Daily Show appearance was not the first time he's made a complete a** of himself.

No, you implied that he opened his mouth and lost the nomination because of it.

He didn't make an ass out of himself because he yelled. The media made him look like an ass by making it into an issue.

Many Democrats say the same things Dean says. Just like how many Republicans say things like 'the Democrats support terrorism' or 'we're safer because of Bush.' I don't think his comments were said articulately, but really, this is just making yet another issue out of nothing.

 

[Marx]

No, you implied that he opened his mouth and lost the nomination because of it.

He didn't make an ass out of himself because he yelled. The media made him look like an ass by making it into an issue.

Many Democrats say the same things Dean says. Just like how many Republicans say things like 'the Democrats support terrorism' or 'we're safer because of Bush.' I don't think his comments were said articulately, but really, this is just making yet another issue out of nothing.

Fair enough. But just don't pretend that Howard Dean doesn't have a knack for ****ing the attention and making himself look like an idiot from time to time.

 

[The Senator]

It wasn't JUST the scream, he was losing his momentum as is - he did just get a John Edwards third in Iowa.

Yeah, his momentum was fading, but the media made the "scream" into a far greater issue than it needed to be.

 

[The Senator]

Fair enough. But just don't pretend that Howard Dean doesn't have a knack for ****ing the attention and making himself look like an idiot from time to time.

Howard Dean, Bill Clinton, John Kerry, Terry McAuliffe, and many more within the Democratic Party qualify as attention ****es.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Here's the thing. You're in politics and it's kinda like sports, everyone's watching. If you screw up you have to do something to get yourself out of it, but if you screw up in a funny way you're gonna be watching that sportscenter highlight for a long time. You either laugh it off and do something to distract attention or you make it an issue by focusing on it.

Dean was at that time losing momentum, then he screamed BYAW! and his voice cracked like a 9 year old. Then he made the mistake of talking about it again and again which only fed the fires.

You can have the greatest presidental nominee ever and if by some act of god his/her pants fall down on him/her while on the campaign trail and that's caught on film, he/she is a joke and done. It's not fair, but that's how it will play.

 

[StorminNorman]

Yeah, his momentum was fading, but the media made the "scream" into a far greater issue than it needed to be.

Naturally, but it didn't lose him the election - or his career.

 

[The Senator]

Here's the thing. You're in politics and it's kinda like sports, everyone's watching. If you screw up you have to do something to get yourself out of it, but if you screw up in a funny way you're gonna be watching that sportscenter highlight for a long time. You either laugh it off and do something to distract attention or you make it an issue by focusing on it.

Dean was at that time losing momentum, then he screamed BYAW! and his voice cracked like a 9 year old. Then he made the mistake of talking about it again and again which only fed the fires.

You can have the greatest presidental nominee ever and if by some act of god his/her pants fall down on him/her while on the campaign trail and that's caught on film, he/she is a joke and done. It's not fair, but that's how it will play.

Don't get me wrong, Dean was not without fault when it came to his downfall. But the reason why he kept talking about it was because the media kept asking him about it. They made it into a huge issue, and he felt the need to address it. How do you react when you're in that situation? Like you said, anything can kill a politician's chance of reaching the office they hope to seek. So he had a choice, he could laugh off this scream which was ****ing the media airwaves during the week between Iowa and New Hampshire, or he could have addressed it and hoped that by addressing it, people would stop asking him about it. Unfortunately, he did the latter, and folks still asked him about it, and that killed his chances in New Hampshire while simultaneously killing the Democrats' chances of having a nominee with a backbone.

 

[The Major]

All I'm saying, and what Matt has said, is that his Daily Show appearance was not the first time he's made a complete a** of himself.

Everyone makes mistakes. He's got nothing on Dubya. Yet the media says nothing when George screws up every time he opens his mouth or does something stupid (Merkle, not being able to open a door etc).

 

[Marx]

Everyone makes mistakes. He's got nothing on Dubya. Yet the media says nothing when George screws up every time he opens his mouth or does something stupid (Merkle, not being able to open a door etc).

That would take up too much time. There wouldn't be any other news that would be able to be reported!

 

[The Major]

Here's the thing. You're in politics and it's kinda like sports, everyone's watching. If you screw up you have to do something to get yourself out of it, but if you screw up in a funny way you're gonna be watching that sportscenter highlight for a long time. You either laugh it off and do something to distract attention or you make it an issue by focusing on it.

Dean was at that time losing momentum, then he screamed BYAW! and his voice cracked like a 9 year old. Then he made the mistake of talking about it again and again which only fed the fires.

You can have the greatest presidental nominee ever and if by some act of god his/her pants fall down on him/her while on the campaign trail and that's caught on film, he/she is a joke and done. It's not fair, but that's how it will play.

Didn't stop Dubya from winning a general election twice.

 

[The Major]

That would take up too much time. There wouldn't be any other news that would be able to be reported!

It would be more relevant then what they're usually reporting.

The ratings might go up, too.

 

[Spider-Bite]

I will concede to you he is great at organization and fund raising, but again, he does a lot of damage through his constant attention ****ing. Come now Jman, The Daily Show is not an isolated incident. Dean makes an ass out of himself and the party basically any time he has a camera on him.

Honestly I feel the media makes an ass out of him, by focusing on completely irrelevant remarks, that have no bearing on anything going on in this country, and often times for being honest. Remember when he called for a withdrawl? The media made him sound crazy. Now everybody agrees with him.

Remember when he said Bush knew about 9/11 and could have stopped it? Well it turned out that Bush did know Alquida was planning to fly airplanes into buildings at around that date, yet he waited untill after to increase security at airports and on airplanes. This was the findings of the 9/11 commission, who also concluded he could have prevented it. I'll admit they concluded that Bill Clinton could have prevented it, but it doesnt' change the fact that the media made an ass out of Dean for speaking the truth.

We also have to remember everything he accomplished as governor of Vermont. Increased the job rate by 20%. Cut the child molestation rate in half. got graduation ratesup and teen pregnancies down. Turned their state deficit into a state surplus, while cutting taxes at the same time.

Remember he did all that with a camera on him, and that hardly made him look like an ass. With all the mud and ******** in politics, I say we have a moral obligation to show some appreciation when somebody actually helps this country.

 

[Spider-Bite]

Don't get me wrong, Dean was not without fault when it came to his downfall. But the reason why he kept talking about it was because the media kept asking him about it. They made it into a huge issue, and he felt the need to address it. How do you react when you're in that situation? Like you said, anything can kill a politician's chance of reaching the office they hope to seek. So he had a choice, he could laugh off this scream which was ****ing the media airwaves during the week between Iowa and New Hampshire, or he could have addressed it and hoped that by addressing it, people would stop asking him about it. Unfortunately, he did the latter, and folks still asked him about it, and that killed his chances in New Hampshire while simultaneously killing the Democrats' chances of having a nominee with a backbone.

That's not quite true. I watched that campaign very closely, and he did try real hard to laugh it off and act like a good sport about it.

 

[Spider-Bite]

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/05/14/clinton-campaign-were-ahead-in-the-popular-vote/

Can somebody say "delusional?"

Not delusiona. Just dishonest.