The commercial potential of a new Hulk movie

[KangConquers]

As Captain America: The Winter Soldier starts to wind down a bit, positioning itself for a $700 M finish, we've seen that the Avengers affect is very real. Iron Man and Captain America almost doubled their previous outings' respective totals, and even Thor: The Dark World, with it's tepid critical response and proximity to major year end tent pole Catching Fire, managed to exceed the original film by almost $200 M.

All of these gains (over a combined $1 Billion between the three films) makes me wonder about the sequel potential of The Incredible Hulk franchise. Despite two low performing films, The Hulk was considered a major stand out in the Avengers, and an audience favorite.

Is that enough though? Is the general audience as wary of a third Hulk movie as Marvel is of making one? Can Marvel make a cost effective Hulk movie, with a high standard of CGI, when the $220 M budgeted Avengers only had Hulk on screen for a total of 4 minutes? Is Hulk's extreme anti-hero/ raging monster routine, which makes him compelling on one level, a commercial detriment?

 

[cherokeesam]

That's a good question, Kang.

If Hulk 2 (3?) had been the next movie released after The Avengers, I'd say it'd have a huge chance of success. Now, after 3 Phase II movies, with GOTG waiting in the wings and an Avengers sequel after that, I dunno if Hulk is still riding that feel-good wave from the "puny god" era.

I guess a lot of it depends on where Hulk stands after AoU. I've got a feeling that Marvel will inevitably revert Hulk back to type there, and by movie's end, we'll see the misunderstood Frankenstein's monster again, complete with "Lonely Man" theme. I just don't think they can keep "Happy" Hulk around forever. It just ain't his style.

 

[Dasher10]

Honestly, with the way that Mark Ruffalo portrays the character, I'd like to see Hulk get a new film. The problem isn't the IP, the problem is that the previous films were too angsty.

 

[DrCosmic]

I think Kang, what you were saying about franchises being 'capped' or 'tainted' applies to Hulk as well. The audience sees him as worth around $250M worldwide. I think with the opening of the WW market since then and the Avengers push he might get to $350, but there's a perception of Hulk films that Avengers can't make go away.

I think on a certain level, what makes this Hulk 'work' and be 'popular' is having other heroes to play off of. Would people be as excited to see Hulk without Stark? Without Widow? Without the things that made Banner and thus Hulk compelling? Then you have the whole Hulk Smash appeal, which winds up being a relatively short time. I have no doubt that Hulk's screen time can double, from say 8 minutes in Avengers (similar in TIH, actually), to 16 minutes... but the rest of the movie is Banner's to carry, probably with no one to bounce off of.

Now they could fix/be aware of all this, and surround Hulk with people who basically stand in for the Avengers but don't get as much screen time, so Banner can be the star. They can make him the cheery but dangerous type we see in Avengers. They can come up with a villain who is compelling an grounded without being another smash fest. They can change up Hulk's rage routine with Grey Hulk or Professor Hulk. They can navigate connecting to TIH narratively while not giving anyone the idea that the film will be related to TIH in terms of theme or quality or content. Hopefully they know not to put Betty and General Ross in the trailer.

They can do all this, but the trailer will still be Banner nice+threatening, Hulk smash. The film will still cost $200M+ and they're not getting more than $350M worldwide back. Even if we pretend the Avengers push works as well for flops as successful films like IM2 and CATFA, you're topping at around $500M, which might be just enough to break even. Maybe. But think about that... if they do everything right and get lucky, they might break even. Is that a film to make?

 

[metaphysician]

Eh, I think that's a little pessimistic. Neither prior Hulk movie did great, but they did poorly for different reasons. If there is a "cap" at work, its probably more an indicator of exactly how ( not ) far the Hulk name alone can take a mediocre movie.

I think the key to selling a new Hulk movie to the audience is to deliberately eschew the traditional Lonely Man. Show Banner being heroic in the trailer, rather than furtive. Have the Hulk reveal be as a Big Damn Hero moment, rather than a monster reveal. That should jolt the audience out of assuming this is yet another iteration of the same repetitive "desperate scientist running from the military" story.

 

[DrCosmic]

I'm pretty convinced that previous experiences color people's perceptions. I think this principle applies to everything, including a would be Hulk movie. People don't just see those movies as individual failures for specific reasons, they have a general feel for Hulk solo movies as mediocre. I don't understand how people think that will somehow disappear.

Separating from TIH, as you suggest, is a great move. But they've had 'this one will be different' before. You still have that legacy to contend with and nothing you can do will completely erase it, only combat it. That kind of genius move can get you to doubling the previous take, and breaking even. It also limits the kind of story you can tell, since now the movie can't focus on Banner's angst, even though that was a strong undercurrent of the popular Avengers Hulk.

Fantastic Four has the same problem, which is why it can't be a $200M movie, because it has to basically start building it's reputation over again with a small audience who will believe the all-different FF will be all-different. No matter how different it is, they can't convince 50 million people that the execution was the only problem with the last films, and not the core concept, not with a trailer at least.

Hulk is similar, just not as bad.

 

[H.U.S.T.L.E.]

I think on a certain level, what makes this Hulk 'work' and be 'popular' is having other heroes to play off of. Would people be as excited to see Hulk without Stark? Without Widow? Without the things that made Banner and thus Hulk compelling? Then you have the whole Hulk Smash appeal, which winds up being a relatively short time. I have no doubt that Hulk's screen time can double, from say 8 minutes in Avengers (similar in TIH, actually), to 16 minutes... but the rest of the movie is Banner's to carry, probably with no one to bounce off of.

I think this would be the key to a successful Hulk movie, and we've already seen that Marvel isn't averse to this strategy by including Black Widow into Cap's recent outing. And even though she is a major character in the movie, it always felt like Cap's story to me. I think the same could happen in a Hulk movie and they already have a pretty good template to start with in the animated EMH series.

The Hulk & Hawkeye bromance was handled very well on that show and made for some legitimately entertaining moments. Plus, in the MCU the Hawkeye character has been underdeveloped so far and with no likely solo vehicle in play for him, a team-up with Banner would be a fun solution. How that works into the story, I have no idea, but I'm sure there's a way to do it without being completely hamfisted.

 

[Spooderman]

It's been how many years since the Leader was created? I wana know what he has been up to.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Part of what made Hulk so great in Avengers was his interaction with the other characters. Whedon did a hell of a job with the writing. The humor for Hulk was perfect.

I'm not sure if it would work as well in a solo film. They would need the right players to get it right. Whedon would need to be involved with the writing and Ruffalo would need to be the actor.

 

[DrCosmic]

^I don't think Whedon wants to.

Q: Is it possible to Make a Good Hulk Movie?
Joss Whedon: Yes. But it would be very, very hard. Hulk is a tricky son of a *****. He’s the Claudio of superheroes. Because the problem is it’s a very popular character, but it’s not a superhero. Half of it’s a superhero, half of it’s a werewolf. And you can’t structure it like a superhero movie, you can’t light it like a superhero movie. How do you develop that? It would be extremely difficult. The one thing you would have in your favour would be Mark Ruffalo. But right now I don’t know if they have plans to do that or not, because he works so well as part of a greater whole, but by himself, it’s tough. I don’t envy the guys who went before.

http://www.hitfix.com/news/joss-whedon-says-a-solo-hulk-movie-would-be-very-very-hard

For reference, Claudio, in Much Ado About Nothing, is the central character, but not the lead character. It is his story, but he is not the main active member in it, or the one with the story arc, Benedick is.

I think this would be the key to a successful Hulk movie, and we've already seen that Marvel isn't averse to this strategy by including Black Widow into Cap's recent outing. And even though she is a major character in the movie, it always felt like Cap's story to me. I think the same could happen in a Hulk movie and they already have a pretty good template to start with in the animated EMH series.

The Hulk & Hawkeye bromance was handled very well on that show and made for some legitimately entertaining moments. Plus, in the MCU the Hawkeye character has been underdeveloped so far and with no likely solo vehicle in play for him, a team-up with Banner would be a fun solution. How that works into the story, I have no idea, but I'm sure there's a way to do it without being completely hamfisted.

Yeah, defintely put Hawkeye in there. You honestly want another hero, bring in Rhodes or Sif or super Skye as an assistant or something. (She Hulk?). You need someone who identifies with Banner as a hero, and rightfully so, but also someone, whom we care about, who identifies Hulk, correctly, as a monster.

 

[CoherentChaos]

I can imagine Hawkeye being the one that worries about the Hulk making a mess. Maybe he gets involved because he was tasked to shadow Bruce. I know SHIELD isn't viable anymore, but I'm sure he's still loyal to the cause, and Hill seems to be playing any angle she can in Agents. Loyal SHIELD members are still active, they just don't have any legal authenticity to their name anymore, and no obscene amounts of government funding backing them. I don't think that's going to stop them from trying to maintain order when it comes to super powered incidents.

I say bring on Jennifer Walters as Banner's confidant. She would see him as a hero and could maybe even try to defend him in court. Should we go down the She-Hulk road? Dunno, maybe include a blood transfusion, but maybe it'll be a gradual transformation.

I think it'd be a nice subversion if Bruce somehow puts General Ross on the run. General Ross probably still has Banner's blood from the Harlem incident, and I'd suspect experiments are already underway if that's the case.

So Bruce finds out that gamma soldiers are being deployed, gets angry that after everything he went through to keep the power contained, Ross still has what he wants. He contacts Hill for help (alluding to Indestructible Hulk), and Hill sends him Barton as assistance (but also to keep the Hulk in check). Already this premise could probably attract audiences and change their expectations. The trailers could show a story of Bruce striking back as it were, one man (well not exactly, but it's not the Avengers either) climbing against insurmountable odds.

Of course though, we'd need another villain other than Ross. Leader could be later revealed to be pulling the strings, and maybe the threat is secretly much larger than the military having gamma powered soldiers. And we could portray Hulk both as a hero, and as a looming threat, as Bruce's ambitions grow more and more intense and his use of the Hulk gets a bit reckless, at least enough to confirm Clint's fears.

~

At least that'd be my first draft if I were to write a script. :P I'm sure MS can come up with something much much better, but what concerns me is that apparently they aren't even trying. It doesn't have to start filming immediately, just get some screenplays rolling.

 

[DrCosmic]

I think what Black Widow brought to the Hulk was more than 'worrying about him making a mess,' she was a potential victim that visibly feared for her life when she was near Hulk, and justifiably so.

I do like Jenn as the confidant who believes in her cousin, which makes her transformation all the more interesting when she has to basically put her money where her mouth is and find out just how uncontrollable Gamma can be.

Leader and a Gamma Army of monsters sounds workable. I wouldn't use Ross if they're trying to show this isn't like the last two. In fact, if I did use Ross, it would be as an ally, to show how the stakes were really high this time. Now I'm not saying Red Hulk, but, I'm saying... there's gamma monsters everywhere... I dunno man...

 

[CyclopsWasRight]

I'm of the opinion that general audiences only like Hulk for Hulk smashing scenes, not for the Banner story

 

[CoherentChaos]

I think what Black Widow brought to the Hulk was more than 'worrying about him making a mess,' she was a potential victim that visibly feared for her life when she was near Hulk, and justifiably so.

I do like Jenn as the confidant who believes in her cousin, which makes her transformation all the more interesting when she has to basically put her money where her mouth is and find out just how uncontrollable Gamma can be.

Leader and a Gamma Army of monsters sounds workable. I wouldn't use Ross if they're trying to show this isn't like the last two. In fact, if I did use Ross, it would be as an ally, to show how the stakes were really high this time. Now I'm not saying Red Hulk, but, I'm saying... there's gamma monsters everywhere... I dunno man...

Honestly I'm not a fan of Red Hulk at all. Buuut, I acknowledge his popularity, so even if I were to write the filmed screenplay, I might feel obliged to at least foreshadow it if not actually have it in Hulk's next solo.

I do like the idea of Ross becoming an ally though. Maybe he can be a red herring. First 20-30 minutes we believe he's the antagonist. This is the part that isn't advertised in order to keep audience intrigue, but it's there.

Bruce begins thinking his target is Ross, but soon finds out that Ross is just being used, and the general knows he's being used but can't really object, which leaves him open to the idea of helping the guy he used to hunt. And if we must go down the Red Hulk route, it might be interesting if he falls victim to the same twisted experiments done on the gamma soldiers.

I know that Black Widow perhaps has the biggest reason to mistrust him, but I don't know about the chemistry between the two. At least while Clint will be looking for any excuse to tranq Bruce, he'll still hesitant a bit once he develops some comradery with the Hulk. I think it'd also be interesting if they had some exchanges about what it's like to be a prisoner in your own mind.

Nat seems like she'd use the Widow Sting on him the moment he does as much as raise his voice.

~

Also if they went the gamma soldiers route, I think it'd be neat if Private Tibbets was the squad leader.

You know, this guy:

He'd fill a sort of Batroc role as Hulk's first rival before we hit the big guns of the finale.

 

[DrCosmic]

I'm thinking along the same lines. I would basically just use Rulk for the first fight and have Ross be an ally after that, with all the texture a former adversary can offer. Basically a Batroc-like effect.

And I wasn't suggesting that Nat herself be in a Hulk film, I'm just saying what Hawkeye brings in no way addresses or makes up for what she brought, seeing as how Hawkeye isn't constantly personally threatened, nor should he be if he has those Hulk tranqs. Hawkeye, especially with the comraderie you're talking about, would play a Stark-like role, along with Jenn, which could be cool. Without someone who rightfully fears Hulk that we care about, Hulk basically suffers Spikification, that is, he used to be edgy and dangerous, but now he's safe and laid back, all bark no bite. He's out of control and super angry, but who cares? Expendable extras care I guess, but everyone we care about reacts the same was as if Thor or Stark were angry. Not a good look. You need someone embody that fear of Hulk.

If it's Leader and Gamma Monsters, Private Tibbets would be a constant threat after act I. He'd be more of a Rumlow than a Batroc, since he's the main face for the main villains goon squad.

 

[EssayM]

Maybe they could use one of the storylines from the comics? I mean, we've seen him do more than quietly run from the military; there has to be other material to use. Maybe bring in Doc Samson and She-Hulk? Maybe use a villain that has more to offer than "his crummy dad with superpowers" or "Slightly Different-Looking Hulk"? Show people parts of Hulk's world that they haven't seen before. If you give them something visually and/or conceptually interesting, you could easily bring a whole new audience into it.

 

[CoherentChaos]

@ Cosmic ~ Alright, then who would your suggestion be to fill the shoes of Nat? Clint can be reserved as Jennifer's replacement if the studio isn't keen on bringing She-Hulk to big screen yet.

I would suggest Samson, but in TIH he seems to eventually see Hulk as Betty's protector. I honestly don't know where we go from there to make him into the kind of guy that would mess with Bruce's mind to hopefully cure him of the Hulk, and then come up with the idea to exile Hulk to space for his own good.

So if Flux is our Rumlow, does this make Rulk (or just plain Ross and the military if another Hulk isn't in budget) our Batroc? A first fight that prefaces the real threat?

I suppose Leader would be comparable to Redfield. Not a fighter but the mastermind behind the whole thing. But that begs the question of who Bruce's Winter Soldier is, so to speak. I don't think Flux could carry the physical threat for a whole movie.

which brings me to..

@Essay, I would go as far as to also have the U-Foes as the next step from Leader's testing of the water with expendable soldiers. That or his personal guard.

Utrecht could be Stern's financial beneficiary at first (evil masterminds need to get resources somehow before they can build their death ray or whatever), hustled into delusions of grandeur and power. So he agrees to experiments on himself and his associates and bam we have an elite guard for the finale and even scenes leading up to the finale.

Visually and conceptually they're different. Aside from Ironclad, they have different powersets, ones that would be cheaper to portray than yet another big, organic baddie wrestling match while presenting new challenges for the green goliath. And four against one could be an interesting visual spectacle.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Hulk works better as a team member.

Then again I never thought Captain America would make over 700 m.

 

[Silvermoth]

The biggest obstacle is everyone at marvel wants a story about Bruce banner but all the hulk stories I want to see adapted barely feature him at all (like planet hulk and hulk: the end)

 

[Chance Jackson]

I think Kang, what you were saying about franchises being 'capped' or 'tainted' applies to Hulk as well. The audience sees him as worth around $250M worldwide. I think with the opening of the WW market since then and the Avengers push he might get to $350, but there's a perception of Hulk films that Avengers can't make go away.

I think on a certain level, what makes this Hulk 'work' and be 'popular' is having other heroes to play off of. Would people be as excited to see Hulk without Stark? Without Widow? Without the things that made Banner and thus Hulk compelling? Then you have the whole Hulk Smash appeal, which winds up being a relatively short time. I have no doubt that Hulk's screen time can double, from say 8 minutes in Avengers (similar in TIH, actually), to 16 minutes... but the rest of the movie is Banner's to carry, probably with no one to bounce off of.

Now they could fix/be aware of all this, and surround Hulk with people who basically stand in for the Avengers but don't get as much screen time, so Banner can be the star. They can make him the cheery but dangerous type we see in Avengers. They can come up with a villain who is compelling an grounded without being another smash fest. They can change up Hulk's rage routine with Grey Hulk or Professor Hulk. They can navigate connecting to TIH narratively while not giving anyone the idea that the film will be related to TIH in terms of theme or quality or content. Hopefully they know not to put Betty and General Ross in the trailer.

They can do all this, but the trailer will still be Banner nice+threatening, Hulk smash. The film will still cost $200M+ and they're not getting more than $350M worldwide back. Even if we pretend the Avengers push works as well for flops as successful films like IM2 and CATFA, you're topping at around $500M, which might be just enough to break even. Maybe. But think about that... if they do everything right and get lucky, they might break even. Is that a film to make?

This, plus there are a ton of franchises I'd rather see attempted first before we revisit the hulk

 

[DrCosmic]

@ Cosmic ~ Alright, then who would your suggestion be to fill the shoes of Nat? Clint can be reserved as Jennifer's replacement if the studio isn't keen on bringing She-Hulk to big screen yet.

I would suggest Samson, but in TIH he seems to eventually see Hulk as Betty's protector. I honestly don't know where we go from there to make him into the kind of guy that would mess with Bruce's mind to hopefully cure him of the Hulk, and then come up with the idea to exile Hulk to space for his own good.

So if Flux is our Rumlow, does this make Rulk (or just plain Ross and the military if another Hulk isn't in budget) our Batroc? A first fight that prefaces the real threat?

I suppose Leader would be comparable to Redfield. Not a fighter but the mastermind behind the whole thing. But that begs the question of who Bruce's Winter Soldier is, so to speak. I don't think Flux could carry the physical threat for a whole movie.

which brings me to..

@Essay, I would go as far as to also have the U-Foes as the next step from Leader's testing of the water with expendable soldiers. That or his personal guard.

Utrecht could be Stern's financial beneficiary at first (evil masterminds need to get resources somehow before they can build their death ray or whatever), hustled into delusions of grandeur and power. So he agrees to experiments on himself and his associates and bam we have an elite guard for the finale and even scenes leading up to the finale.

Visually and conceptually they're different. Aside from Ironclad, they have different powersets, ones that would be cheaper to portray than yet another big, organic baddie wrestling match while presenting new challenges for the green goliath. And four against one could be an interesting visual spectacle.

Going backwards, I can see how a U-Foes with slightly less visual flair than their 616 counterparts could work, and would be much cooler than generic Gamma monsters. As is, they're all kinda CGI characters, and that would have to be toned down to make them affordable. But it's actually quite doable, if you spin it right. They would also make more interesting/compelling "Gamma Monsters" than Leader's usual fare, though you'd be changing their origin significantly by having them revolve around Hulk rather than the FF.

I think it'd be interesting to invert things from Hulk bashing Gamma Monsters to Banner feeling sorry for these people that got experimented on before Leader perfected his process. Inverting expectations would have to be the watchword for this film. You'd want everyone coming out the theatre to say "It is nothing like what I thought it would be, it's so much better than those other two!"

But yeah, I'm thinking Leader as our Alexander Pierce, The U-Foes as our STRIKE/Project Insight team with Vector/Utrect as the Winter Soldier, so to speak in terms of leading the bad guy enforcers. Rulk would be our Batroc while Ross would become our Nick Fury, of sorts in terms of having major tension with the hero, but helping anyway because he has a personal relationship with the bad guy, Leader.

I think Jennifer could actually do well as a 'scared of Hulk' companion which makes her transformation into one all the more interesting. While Nat's resolution was along the lines of 'we could use a little worse,' Jenn's resolution is more along the lines of 'I love being hyperemotional.' I think it'd be interesting if Hawkeye got to the point where he was terrified of Hulk, if those tranqs didn't work one time and he ended up getting Hulk's ire. So in a way, Hawkeye would start out as the Falcon-like sidekick and end up having to go his own way like Widow in the end because of who Hulk is. Jennifer on the other hand, would start out like Widow as someone with constant tension with Banner, but in the end becomes a Falcon-like lover of all things Hulk.

I think that could be interesting, but I think they're already covering that kind of Hulk-attacks-Banners-buddies with Hulk fighting a Hulkbuster in AoU.

 

[Intouch]

Speaking of Hulk and the proposed sequels that seemingly fell off the slate once they recast the character for a third time, Lou Ferrigno told a local radio station in Minnesota that Marvel is- indeed- planning another solo film. After talking about how Ruffalo's Hulk was the "star of the movie" in the first Avengers, claiming he "saved the day," the actor said, "Now because he saved the day they're making another solo Hulk movie after the second Avengers comes out."

http://www.latino-review.com/news/tim-blake-nelson-fantastic-four-hulk-movie

 

[DrCosmic]

I think sometimes actors get excited about 'talk' as though it's going forward.

 

[Dasher10]

I just want to see Gina Carano as Jen.

 

[Donut]

End Avengers 2 with Ultron sending Hulk into space. This sets up Planet Hulk & if Guardians Of The Galaxy is a success. Planet Hulk can also be a Guardians cross over. Have Star Lord on the same planet where Hulk ends up on. The rest of the team is doing their own mission. Hulk & Star Lord team up. The team takes Hulk home at the end. This would allow a Guardians & Avengers Cosmic team up in The Avengers 3