The Communism Thread

[Judge Holden]

Capatalism: The rich get richer, the poor get poorer

Communism: Every body is poor!

 

[A&W]

Communism is about the full picture - in theory. In reality it's about economic incompetence and the slaughter of innocents.

That is an extremely inmature, arrogant, and dishonest response. The public option had nothing to do with economic incompetence or the slaughter of innocents. Neither did medicare.

Neither do any of my socialist beliefs. I have been starting to feel conflicted on the death penalty in rescent times, but that's not for innocent people. It has nothing to do with me being a socialist. In fact it has more to do with me moving slightly, very very slightly to the right.

Honestly while it's conceivable that you could have the misguided opinion that it's based on economic incompetence, to say it's about the slaughter of innocents is a downright offensive lie. There is absolutely nothing in the communism ideology that says you should slaughter anybody. In fact I'm yet to meet even one single communist or socialist who has come across as anything less than very compassionate. In fact people with your ideological view usually accuse us of being too compassionate. You claim it's a weakness, that sometimes we have to be tough and not be afraid to kill.

Your side of the aisle tries to have it both ways. You accuse us of being liberal, wuss, tree hugging pacifists, but then you accuse us of wanting death panels and wanting to slaughter people.

Your post is less of a serious political comment, and more like childish trashtalk. In fact political pundits don't even use that language. Shockjocks like Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, and Sean Hannnity talk like that.

I have proposed a few socialist ideas here. While you may or may not disagree on whether they are competent, that is an opinion and not a fact or a false fact. It's debatable.

I have proposed nothing even close to slaughtering people. That's not an opinion. That's a fact. It's not debatable. You should take back that statement, unless you can find a post of mine advocating the slaughter of innocents.

 

[StorminNorman]

That is an extremely inmature, arrogant, and dishonest response. The public option had nothing to do with economic incompetence or the slaughter of innocents. Neither did medicare.

Neither do any of my socialist beliefs. I have been starting to feel conflicted on the death penalty in rescent times, but that's not for innocent people. It has nothing to do with me being a socialist. In fact it has more to do with me moving slightly, very very slightly to the right.

Honestly while it's conceivable that you could have the misguided opinion that it's based on economic incompetence, to say it's about the slaughter of innocents is a downright offensive lie. There is absolutely nothing in the communism ideology that says you should slaughter anybody. In fact I'm yet to meet even one single communist or socialist who has come across as anything less than very compassionate. In fact people with your ideological view usually accuse us of being too compassionate. You claim it's a weakness, that sometimes we have to be tough and not be afraid to kill.

Your side of the aisle tries to have it both ways. You accuse us of being liberal, wuss, tree hugging pacifists, but then you accuse us of wanting death panels and wanting to slaughter people.

Your post is less of a serious political comment, and more like childish trashtalk. In fact political pundits don't even use that language. Shockjocks like Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, and Sean Hannnity talk like that.

I have proposed a few socialist ideas here. While you may or may not disagree on whether they are competent, that is an opinion and not a fact or a false fact. It's debatable.

I have proposed nothing even close to slaughtering people. That's not an opinion. That's a fact. It's not debatable. You should take back that statement, unless you can find a post of mine advocating the slaughter of innocents.

Communism and Socialism are both Political Philosophies that stem from Collectivism - which is the emphasis over the collected masses over that of the individual. Such a belief inherently leads to the sacrifice of the individual. If we are told that our work belongs the community as a whole, then what do you do to those that don't want to be apart of the community? It's not coincidence that the greatest atrocities in human history since the Holocaust have occurred under Communist governments.

The most ideal, Utopian visions of Communism still requires self sacrifice. Capitalism, on the other hand, requires a sense of self worth.

It's funny to see you claim that the Public Option and Medicare aren't about Economic Incompetence when Public Healthcare is bankrupting countries like Canada and Great Britain and Medicare is a finical black hole in the Federal Budget.

 

[Schlosser85]

Communism is a utopian la la land philosophy that sounds terrific on paper but doesn't take human nature or common sense into account.

Marx assumed the proletariat would be willing to give up power once seizing it, and that the former "capitalist overlords" would be content suddenly living equally with their downtrodden workers.

Also, if everyone has exactly what everyone else has no matter what they do or how hard or lazily they work, there is no incentive to work hard, to innovate, to come up with new ideas. Competition breeds innovation and invention throughout history.

Necessity is the mother of invention, and competition is the father.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Make up your mind Hippie. I was defending your position.

I'm all for public transportation, but there really needs to be more effective ways to run it before we can go full on into it.

That and with all the debt building up not just in the United States, but around the entire world, we need to focus on that first and foremost before investing it on something as frivolous as public transportation. The recent debt crisis in Europe has really changed my views on investing government money and monetary unions.

 

[A&W]

Communism and Socialism are both Political Philosophies that stem from Collectivism - which is the emphasis over the collected masses over that of the individual. Such a belief inherently leads to the sacrifice of the individual. If we are told that our work belongs the community as a whole, then what do you do to those that don't want to be apart of the community? It's not coincidence that the greatest atrocities in human history since the Holocaust have occurred under Communist governments.

The most ideal, Utopian visions of Communism still requires self sacrifice. Capitalism, on the other hand, requires a sense of self worth.

It's funny to see you claim that the Public Option and Medicare aren't about Economic Incompetence when Public Healthcare is bankrupting countries like Canada and Great Britain and Medicare is a finical black hole in the Federal Budget.

This is at least more serious. I am not asking for any kind of human sacrifice as in killing somebody though. I do believe that you should be expected to do your part and act like a team player for the good of the nation. Yes everybody should have to give back to society, and at least make some effort to make it a better place. I don't believe in the whole me, myself, and I only mentality is efficent or moral.

It is ridiculous to try and compare the entire communismm ideology to holocaust. It is also very distasteful and offensive. Did I compare you to a slave owner since you call yourself a conservative? Am I accusing you on going on Christain crusades or trying to stop women from reading? Or trying to have gay people executed? Or wanting to have believers of different religions executed? Did I accuse you of opposing the civil rights act? No, because not all conservatives are the same and not every idea thought up by a conservative is automatically a bad idea.

Hitler forgot that according to the socialism and communism ideologies Jews and everybody else are supposed to be treated EQUALLY!!! While you may disagree with communists on equality, the mere fact that communism advocates equality should make it easy enough for you to seperate Hitler from a true communist.

 

[A&W]

I'm all for public transportation, but there really needs to be more effective ways to run it before we can go full on into it.

That and with all the debt building up not just in the United States, but around the entire world, we need to focus on that first and foremost before investing it on something as frivolous as public transportation. The recent debt crisis in Europe has really changed my views on investing government money and monetary unions.

There always needs to be more effective ways to run everything. Come up with a way to do it more effectively and share it with us.

 

[StorminNorman]

This is at least more serious. I am not asking for any kind of human sacrifice as in killing somebody though. I do believe that you should be expected to do your part and act like a team player for the good of the nation. Yes everybody should have to give back to society, and at least make some effort to make it a better place. I don't believe in the whole me, myself, and I only mentality is efficent or moral.

It is ridiculous to try and compare the entire communismm ideology to Hitler. It is also very distasteful and offensive. Did I compare you to a slave owner since you call yourself a conservative? Am I accusing you on going on Christain crusades or trying to stop women from reading? Or trying to have gay people executed? Or wanting to have believers of different religions executed? Did I accuse you of opposing the civil rights act? No, because not all conservatives are the same and not every idea thought up by a conservative is automatically a bad idea.

Hitler forgot that according to the socialism and communism ideologies Jews and everybody else are supposed to be treated EQUALLY!!! While you may disagree with communists on equality, the mere fact that communism advocates equality should make it easy enough for you to seperate Hitler from a true communist.

You didn't bring anything of substance in this post, so theres not much I can respond with outside of the following:

The " Did I compare you to a slave owner since you call yourself a conservative?" bit was cute, but I never called myself a conservative. Ironically I have vocally expressed opposition to the Civil Rights Act, so I would not have been remotely offended by mentioning that.

I never compared Hitler to communism before this post, but I am going to now. Hitler was a collectivist, like other socialists and communists. Hitler's ideology, however, obviously clashed with socialists and communists for several reasons - communism and socialism's demands for equality not being of them. Communism and socialism does not call for everyone to be treated equally - if you are an individualist, you are not treated equally to the mindless drone who has no problem going along with the group. If you are smart enough to keep quiet about your beliefs, you are trapped in your silence and intellectually tortured by the system around you.

Since you seem not to have a lot of interest in economics, as you have earlier claimed that communist nations somehow play with some different sort of economic principals that make profits and losses irrelevant, you continue to delude yourself with some notion of moral supremacy. When you grow up, perhaps you will see the flaws in your belief that forcing people to be charitable and take care of your neighbor makes your nation more moral.

 

[The Overlord]

You didn't bring anything of substance in this post, so theres not much I can respond with outside of the following:

The " Did I compare you to a slave owner since you call yourself a conservative?" bit was cute, but I never called myself a conservative. Ironically I have vocally expressed opposition to the Civil Rights Act, so I would not have been remotely offended by mentioning that.

I never compared Hitler to communism before this post, but I am going to now. Hitler was a collectivist, like other socialists and communists. Hitler's ideology, however, obviously clashed with socialists and communists for several reasons - communism and socialism's demands for equality not being of them. Communism and socialism does not call for everyone to be treated equally - if you are an individualist, you are not treated equally to the mindless drone who has no problem going along with the group. If you are smart enough to keep quiet about your beliefs, you are trapped in your silence and intellectually tortured by the system around you.

Since you seem not to have a lot of interest in economics, as you have earlier claimed that communist nations somehow play with some different sort of economic principals that make profits and losses irrelevant, you continue to delude yourself with some notion of moral supremacy. When you grow up, perhaps you will see the flaws in your belief that forcing people to be charitable and take care of your neighbor makes your nation more moral.

Hitler didn't believe in equality, on any level. Hilter was student of Nietzsche, not Marx. Communism has a particular ethos and believing in a master race goes against that. You believe everyone is equal and also believe in a master race that is superior, that's an obvious contradiction. Now I think Hitler misinterpreted Nietzsche, but that doesn't change the fact his ideas are based on Nietzsche, not Marx.

You can be a right wing collectivist, the Taliban was collectivist, are they left wing?

I don't agree with A&W about communism, but its still silly to compare communism with all the different types of dictatorships that exist out there.

 

[StorminNorman]

What orifice are you pulling this crap out of? This is totally bizarre, even for you.

First, I never said Hitler believed in Equality.

I never used, in this entire conversation, the words "right", "left" or "wing" - so your second point is completely moot.

And third, you said it's "silly" to compare different types of dictatorships to communism - when you mentioned before hand that the Taliban (which I didn't even reference) held a philosophy based on collectivism, which is the only point of comparison I made between communism and other forms of dictatorship.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff180/MissNorwood/3d51a574.jpg

 

[The Overlord]

What orifice are you pulling this crap out of? This is totally bizarre, even for you.

First, I never said Hitler believed in Equality.

Ok I misread you. Sorry.

I think in theory communism treats people equally in theory, not in practice, where it really matters. Nazism makes no pretensions of equality.

The thing is with communism is the idea that dictatorship of the proles would go away on its own and would be replaced with a society the anarchists idealize. That never happened, of course.

Communism only works if it follows the supposed course its on:

1. Revolution
2. Dictatorship of Proles
3. Anarchist society.

It doesn't do that, so it doesn't work.

The reason why it doesn't create equality because it creates a power structure that can be exploit by intelligent and ruthless people.

Still its pretty different from Nazism, which is a little more, stark in its intentions.

And third, you said it's "silly" to compare different types of dictatorships to communism - when you mentioned before hand that the Taliban (which I didn't even reference) held a philosophy based on collectivism, which is the only point of comparison I made between communism and other forms of dictatorship.

Because communism is based on a certain type of collectivism, yeah I suppose you can say all dictatorships are collectivist, but that's pretty board. Its pretty vague comparison.

 

[StorminNorman]

Ok I misread you. Sorry.

I think in theory communism treats people equally in theory, not in practice, where it really matters. Nazism makes no pretensions of equality.

The thing is with communism is the idea that dictatorship of the proles would go away on its own and would be replaced with a society the anarchists idealize. That never happened, of course.

Communism only works if it follows the supposed course its on:

1. Revolution
2. Dictatorship of Proles
3. Anarchist society.

It doesn't do that, so it doesn't work.

The reason why it doesn't create equality because it creates a power structure that can be exploit by intelligent and ruthless people.

Still its pretty different from Nazism, which is a little more, stark in its intentions.

For this reason I consider Communism to be a crime against human nature. For communism to work, it requires men to devolve into a tribal mindset where he views himself as weak and views his salvation dependent on others.

I think that mankind is meant to evolve, grow more talented, become more self sustaining.

Because communism is based on a certain type of collectivism, yeah I suppose you can say all dictatorships are collectivist, but that's pretty board. Its pretty vague comparison.

If you haven't noticed, my entire spiel is against collectivism. I find it to be an evil, disgusting, immoral philosophy - and the one that inspired too many of our leaders. Including, and especially, Barack Hussein Obama.

 

[The Overlord]

For this reason I consider Communism to be a crime against human nature. For communism to work, it requires men to devolve into a tribal mindset where he views himself as weak and views his salvation dependent on others.

I think that mankind is meant to evolve, grow more talented, become more self sustaining.

Won't argue with you there, I'm not a fan of communism. Ignoring morality, it just doesn't work, it has never worked and trying the same thing over and over again expecting different results. It never did what it was supposed to.

If you haven't noticed, my entire spiel is against collectivism. I find it to be an evil, disgusting, immoral philosophy - and the one that inspired too many of our leaders. Including, and especially, Barack Hussein Obama.

That's a big leap going from Hitler and Stalin to Obama.

 

[8wid]

For this reason I consider Communism to be a crime against human nature. For communism to work, it requires men to devolve into a tribal mindset where he views himself as weak and views his salvation dependent on others.

I think that mankind is meant to evolve, grow more talented, become more self sustaining.



If you haven't noticed, my entire spiel is against collectivism. I find it to be an evil, disgusting, immoral philosophy - and the one that inspired too many of our leaders. Including, and especially, Barack Hussein Obama.

I hope you don't agree with the idea that Obama is an advocate of socialism and dreams of his socialist utopia. Because it would have happened already if he really wanted it to.

 

[StorminNorman]

No, Obama is not a socialist. He, like all modern American Presidents, is a fascist. More specifically a Progressive Fascist.

 

[StorminNorman]

Won't argue with you there, I'm not a fan of communism. Ignoring morality, it just doesn't work, it has never worked and trying the same thing over and over again expecting different results. It never did what it was supposed to.

See, for a time I shared this sort of view of Communism: a good idea on paper, but fails in execution. However I refuse to view slavery (which is what communism is - benign slavery) as the ideal standard to judge human relations.

That's a big leap going from Hitler and Stalin to Obama.

You're right. It is a much smaller leap, however, than say going from George Washington to Thomas Jefferson to Obama.

I would opt to go Alexander Hamilton to Abraham Lincoln to Teddy Roosevelt to FDR to Obama.

 

[The Overlord]

See, for a time I shared this sort of view of Communism: a good idea on paper, but fails in execution. However I refuse to view slavery (which is what communism is - benign slavery) as the ideal standard to judge human relations.

Now thing is though, if communism worked as it was supposed to, there wouldn't be slavery, because there wouldn't be a government. In theory, communism was supposed to sweep across the capitalist countries at once, not get centralized one country like it did with the USSR. Marx predicted the UK would go red, not Russia. Russia was never Marx's the type of country Marx wanted to go communist and Mao bent the rules even further.

Also the dictatorship of the proles was supposed to wither away after a while and replaced with an anarchist society. So in theory there would be no government to enslave people. That's why anarchists are most active radical left wing group nowadays, they believe in everything about communism except for the dictatorship of the proles, they go right from revolution to anarchist society, they believe in an extreme form equality where all forms of authority are destroyed immediately. Far harder to undermine them then traditional Marxists, less likely to succeeded but the angry ones are more likely to cause random property damage.

However this like arguing about dreams you had last night, its so completely theoretical that I couldn't comprehend a time or place where it would happen.

You're right. It is a much smaller leap, however, than say going from George Washington to Thomas Jefferson to Obama.

I would opt to go Alexander Hamilton to Abraham Lincoln to Teddy Roosevelt to FDR to Obama.

Well I guess that's more fair and a reasonable argument to make.

 

[Backdrifter]

Often times government run programs seem inefficent when compared to the private sector only, because companies like BP cut corners to save money.

BP is the perfect example of how the private sector can be efficent. They cut corners to save money even when it's not in the best interest of the world.

BP is actually the perfect example of why communism and socialism don't work. They are in bed with the government and are not being held responsible for the fruits of their negligence. If they were really afraid of the consequences of this kind of disaster, they would never have "cut corners" as you say. But, alas, when you are paying off senators and politicians to work things in your favor... why behave responsibly?

 

[8wid]

Apparently the Cold War ain't over...

Ten arrested in US on charges of spying for Russia

 

[Addendum]

when you are paying off senators and politicians to work things in your favor... why behave responsibly?

That happens no matter what system is in place.

 

[StorminNorman]

In a capitalist government, there would be no advantage to paying senators and other politicians because the government would have no control over the economy.

 

[Addendum]

It's not the economy that politicans are bought and sold over. It's the legislation.

It's not surprising that the first buying of a politician occured shortly after government was invented.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I hope you don't agree with the idea that Obama is an advocate of socialism and dreams of his socialist utopia. Because it would have happened already if he really wanted it to.

No he couldn't. Obama doesn't have the support to go off and do what he wants. Just take a look how much he had to water down his health care initiative, how cap and trade is going nowhere, etc.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

I wonder what ever happened to this A&W guy. It would be nice to have another socialist on this forum.

Looking through the old posts, this stood out:

For communism to work, it requires men to devolve into a tribal mindset where he views himself as weak and views his salvation dependent on others.

I think that mankind is meant to evolve, grow more talented, become more self sustaining.

The irony about this is that, if anything, Marxism is about empowering workers to run their own lives democratically - about giving as many people as possible the opportunity to "be your own boss".

The description of a "tribal" mindset applies better to capitalism and Stalinism. After all, in each of those kinds of governments, people are encouraged to put their faith in leaders who represent different strata of the ruling elite, rather than in controlling society and the economy themselves democratically.

Personally, I think the current organization of society does not give everyone the chance to properly develop their talents. How many people dream of making great art, music, etc. but can't because they have to pay the bills and work a stressful, low-paying, soul-killing job all day?

 

[SV Fan]

The irony about this is that, if anything, Marxism is about empowering workers to run their own lives democratically - about giving as many people as possible the opportunity to "be your own boss".

I always thought a Communism style government could work if you have the government control selected big business(say like oil, weapons manufacturing, all main utilities(gas, electricity, phones, cable tv, etc) but leave stuff like chain stores(Walmart, McDonalds, etc) open to private ownership) but still let the people live in a democratic style environment competing for jobs at different wages.

Whatever money the government makes from the companies it owns gets re-invested in the country