The Dark Knight Returns

[Carmine Falcone]

*unsubscribes*

 

[Punch]

Exactly what I've been trying to say. Croc, Joker, Al Ghul, Darkseid, and all the rest of the DC villains have always been ready and willing to murder and the heroes have founds ways to combat them without resorting to their same methods... but Miller LOVES to force the viewer into believing that the hero's only choice is to murder the villain.

Yeah those guys are murderers, and have been. But In DKR the street level thugs(mutants) are worse. And once again Batman didn't murder anyone.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Yeah those guys are murderers, and have been. But In DKR the street level thugs(mutants) are worse. And once again Batman didn't murder anyone.

Street level thugs in the Dark Knight Returns are not worse than the Joker, Darkseid, Black Manta, Ra's al Ghul, Lex Luthor, the Anti-Monitor, Imperiex, Neron and other villains that Batman has encountered. You're just talking out of your ass.

Thanks to you and silentflute, I now officially hate the Dark Knight Returns with a passion.

 

[Punch]

Street level thugs in the Dark Knight Returns are not worse than the Joker, Darkseid, Black Manta, Ra's al Ghul, Lex Luthor, the Anti-Monitor, Imperiex, Neron and other villains that Batman has encountered. You're just talking out of your ass.

Thanks to you and silentflute, I now officially hate the Dark Knight Returns with a passion.

Let's get a whoa for misunderstanding!No wonder you don't like DKR.
The street thugs are worse than they were before, didn't know I was going to need to hold your hand and lead you through this. Do you need visual aids, like a flow cart?

 

[larryfilmmaker]

Hmm tell that to Bob Kane, who had him kill in his earlier stories.

.

Batman, Robin, and Superman all murdered in early stories... but the characters were prototypes for who and what they would become. They evolved into icons with iconic themes recognized by the world. They are icons because they are more than "characters who do whatever the writers want". If you don't think there are certain guidelines somebody should stick to in order to tell Batman stories and stay respectful to the character, then what keeps each character from being any different from the others? If they are all SO open to interpretation then Batman, INdiana Jones, Bond, Superman, Spider-Man, and all the otehrs have nothing special about them at all other than looks and powers.

Character rape.You fanboys are funny..

If Frank Miller decided to have Bruce Wayne acting as a cross dresser in his spare time and explained it in what seemed to be a perfectly logical reasoning that FIT his new "dark and twisted" world you would piss yourself. More importantly, it would be character rape.

"insults" don't make up for not having intelligent arguments, man. They just don't.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Let's get a whoa for misunderstanding!No wonder you don't like DKR.
The street thugs are worse than they were before, didn't know I was going to need to hold your hand and lead you through this. Do you need visual aids, like a flow cart?

What larry said:

Exactly what I've been trying to say. Croc, Joker, Al Ghul, Darkseid, and all the rest of the DC villains have always been ready and willing to murder and the heroes have founds ways to combat them without resorting to their same methods... but Miller LOVES to force the viewer into believing that the hero's only choice is to murder the villain.

What you said:

Yeah those guys are murderers, and have been. But In DKR the street level thugs(mutants) are worse. And once again Batman didn't murder anyone.

With that statement, you are implying that the Mutants are worse than people who have killed thousands, billions, and even trillions in the DC Universe. And like I said, I didn't hate the Dark Knight Returns, I said I didn't care for it and I thought it was extremely overrated. You and silentflute, the ones who are absolute Miller fanboys, are the ones who have made me hate it.

 

[Rockbottom]

You shouldnt hate it because someone else likes it too much, thats idiotic. I agree that Batman shouldnt and isnt a killer but i also agree that in DKR the Circumstances were different, although i dont agree 100% with him killing, it didnt bother me such as it would if he were to do something like say ...use a gun.

 

[Infinity9999x]

why is there all this talk about Batman killing in DKR? He didn't.

The mutant scene was left ambiguos, and Batman didn't kill the Joker, Joker killed himself. So why are people even mentioning the whole "Batman shouldnt' kill" thing?

 

[Agentsands77]

why is there all this talk about Batman killing in DKR? He didn't.

Sure he did. Or at least took a move that would, for all intents and purposes, kill someone. He blew a guy away. If the guy made some miraculous recovery, we're never told about it, and Batman would have had no knowledge that he would eventually recover.

 

[hippie_hunter]

You shouldnt hate it because someone else likes it too much, thats idiotic. I agree that Batman shouldnt and isnt a killer but i also agree that in DKR the Circumstances were different, although i dont agree 100% with him killing, it didnt bother me such as it would if he were to do something like say ...use a gun.

I don't hate the story. It's not to my liking but I have nothing against it. I just hate the damn book because of all the idiotic fanboys it produced.

 

[Punch]

What larry said:


What you said:


With that statement, you are implying that the Mutants are worse than people who have killed thousands, billions, and even trillions in the DC Universe. And like I said, I didn't hate the Dark Knight Returns, I said I didn't care for it and I thought it was extremely overrated. You and silentflute, the ones who are absolute Miller fanboys, are the ones who have made me hate it.

You misunderstood.
Again.
If you read the first part you can see that I said the major villains have always been murdering psychos. In DKR even the street level thugs are psycho.

I couldn't care less if you like DKR or not, everything I posted in this thread is backed up by a clear understanding of the story.

Frank Miller is one of my favorite creators, but I'm far from a fanboy. I don't like everything he does and won't defend certain choices he's made. But it seems that most of the people here have only read DKR, YO, Sin City and All Star, which leaves out a lot of his best work.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

That was left ambiguos purposely. If he did kill him though, it would certainly be murder. Sure, he would be saving a baby, but it would still be murder.

If he were a cop it would not be in the eyes of the law.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

1) He's not a cop
2) He's not The Punisher
3) Everybody in DKR is the Punisher

 

[silentflute]

1) He's not a cop
2) He's not The Punisher
3) Everybody in DKR is the Punisher

1.So what you're saying is if he had a badge ,you would be ok with it?


2.Bingo.He's Batman.

3.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

It's not hard to understand. A cop would shoot a man holding a baby hostage. Batman doesn't kill. Again? Batman doesn't kill. One more time now! Batman doesn't kill. He uses gadgets to subdue. It's a big part of what makes him Batman. If he had pulled out a knife and stabbed the man in the face would you atleast THEN admit it was out of character. Probably not... but it is.

 

[Cobblepot]

I don't really mind Batman killing once and a while. It's good for his karma and keeps him healthy.

 

[Cobblepot]

ANd keeps the discussions alive.

 

[silentflute]

It's not hard to understand. A cop would shoot a man holding a baby hostage. Batman doesn't kill.

No, Batman prefers not to kill.Big difference there.If he has to,in order to save a child,then he will. Just like a good cop.

Again? Batman doesn't kill.One more time now! Batman doesn't kill.

You feel better now?


He uses gadgets to subdue.

Scenario dictates.Superlatives ("always, "never") don't hold up in the real world.And since you seem to want the comics to be grounded in some kind of reality, then like the real world, scenario always dictates.

It's a big part of what makes him Batman. If he had pulled out a knife and stabbed the man in the face would you atleast THEN admit it was out of character. Probably not... but it is.

You're wrong.Batman would do whatever is necessary to save an innocent.If it's a choice between having to take a thug out in order to save an innocent person, then he'ddhave NO qualms about doing it.Period.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Sure he did. Or at least took a move that would, for all intents and purposes, kill someone. He blew a guy away. If the guy made some miraculous recovery, we're never told about it, and Batman would have had no knowledge that he would eventually recover.

Now, that's the thing we don't know. Batman could have very well shot the guy in the leg, or the tip of shoulder, just enough to make him drop the baby (which admittedly is still a stupid thing to do considering the guy was holding the kid and still could have thrown or dropped the baby) But we have no idea of knowing if Batman was aiming to kill, because we don't know where the bullet hit the Mutant.

 

[Agentsands77]

Now, that's the thing we don't know. Batman could have very well shot the guy in the leg, or the tip of shoulder, just enough to make him drop the baby (which admittedly is still a stupid thing to do considering the guy was holding the kid and still could have thrown or dropped the baby) But we have no idea of knowing if Batman was aiming to kill, because we don't know where the bullet hit the Mutant.

I don't have my copy here in front of me, but if I remember correctly, Miller's art shows quite clearly where the bullets hit - in the chest. Feel free to challenge me on that one.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

I don't have my copy here in front of me, but if I remember correctly, Miller's art shows quite clearly where the bullets hit - in the chest. Feel free to challenge me on that one.

Actually its impossible to tell. Like you I belived that Batman did indeed shoot the mutan in the chest ... but I pulled out my copy of TDKR and found the page and to my suprise the drwaring does not show any obviouse entrie wound as he lays against the wall all it shows is him lying againt the wall with a blood splatter behine him and a hold in the wall were his chesty or shoulder might have been but no difinative answer.

But to answer this quetion more acuratly though tthe batman we have grown to love over the years does not kill the batman of history has killed over tyhe years even as recent as the tim buton batman films in which were in batman and beatman returnes he killed in both movies I can site examples if you like but if you have seen the films you must remember.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I don't have my copy here in front of me, but if I remember correctly, Miller's art shows quite clearly where the bullets hit - in the chest. Feel free to challenge me on that one.

Yeah, as sto_vo_kor_2000 says, it's really impossible to tell. It shows the mutant falling back against the wall, with a bullet hole in the wall over his left shoulder, as well as blood spatter over his left shoulder. He very well could have been shot in the chest, or in the upper shoulder, in a non leathal area.

And also sto_vo_kor_2000 makes a good point. Golden Age Batman does kill, and I kind of veiw DKR as the end of the Golden Age Bats, because it just doesn't seem to fit as a credible future for how our Batman would act.

 

[hippie_hunter]

No, Batman prefers not to kill.Big difference there.If he has to,in order to save a child,then he will. Just like a good cop.

You're wrong.Batman would do whatever is necessary to save an innocent.If it's a choice between having to take a thug out in order to save an innocent person, then he'ddhave NO qualms about doing it.Period.

I ban you from further reading any Batman comics due to your complete lack of understanding of Batman. BATMAN DOES NOT KILL. BATMAN IS ONE OF THE ONLY SUPERHEROES THAT HAS NOT KILLED. BATMAN DOES NOT TOLERATE HIS ASSOCIATES KILLING!

In Batman #404 during the Batman: Year One arc by Frank Miller. Bruce Wayne was shot by what are most likely corrupt cops. The car crashed because he knocked the cops out in their car, causing it to catch on fire.

Bruce Wayne: Fire--only take seconds to reach the gas tank--sirens--move--police----tank will go before they get here----these men--they probably have families--

*Bruce Wayne drags them away from the car before it explodes.

In Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #120 during the No Man's Land arc Batman held a meeting with Robin, Nightwing, Azrael, Oracle, and gave Cassandra Cain the mantle of Batgirl

Batman: The young woman is as well-trained and committed as any of you. She will NEVER take a life. She will NEVER surrender a fight>

Nightwing: You're so certain.

Batman: Her father was one of the men who trained me.

Robin: CAIN TRAINED YOU?

Batman: Knowing how to kill doesn't mean you MUST kill.

Nightwing and Robin went out for a "walk" and talked about the situation over Batman being accused of murder in Batman Gotham Knights #26 in the Bruce Wayne: Murderer arc. He stated:

Nightwing: Ah, but this demonstrates on of the thins I wanted to TALK to you about.

Robin: Can't you just say "sorry," and help me down?

Nightwing: Three things I need you to know.I mean, really KNOW, Deep in your gut. Okay? One: As long as you're with Batman--or me--you're SAFE. Neither of us would EVER let anything HAPPEN to you. Two: We don't quit. Not ONCE has ANYONE who knows Batman's mission failed to get UP again after being knocked DOWN. And three: Batman doesn't kill. Not ever.

In Batman #614 during the Hush arc, Batman almost went through in killing the Joker after he "killed" his childhood friend "Dr. Thomas Elliot." Jim Gordon, whose daughter was paraylized by the Joker, whose wife was murdered by the Joker, would not let him do it:

Jim Gordon: STAND UP AND PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR

Batman: I could crush his windpipe and sever all oxygen from his brain.

*shoots at Batman, then shoots at him again

Jim Gordon: THE NEXT SHOT, I WILL DROP YOU.

Batman: I could push his ribs right through his lungs and rupture his heart.

Jim Gordon: You have to THINK about what you are doing. WHO and WHAT made you who you are. Your ROLE MODELS. The BELIEFS they instilled in you. And think of how the Joker could NEVER understand that. It's what makes him who HE is. THINK.

Batman: I could pound his skull into the pavement until it fractured into so many pieces his brain would spill out.

Jim Gordon:...God help me......you HAVE thought this through.

Batman: It is what should have been done a long time ago.

Jim Gordon: I may no longer carry a badge, but I still believe in the policeman's oath to PROTECT and SERVE. All I can do is appeal to you through our FRIENDSHIP. I wouldn't let you do this when he shot my daughter...killed my WIFE. I don't know HOW I could stop you, but I won't let you throw your life away.

Batman: Jim Gordon. With all HE'S lost...I thought...HE'D understand.

Batman: Jim...You and I have seen more than our fair share of TRAGETIES and thirsted for REVENGE. If Batman WANTED to be a killer, he could have started long ago. But, it's a LINE. On one side we believe in the LAW. On the other...Sometimes the LAW fails us. Maybe that's why I've understood you...Allowed you to help protect this city. Batman, if you cross that line--if you kill the Joker tonight----I will LEAD the hunt to bring you to justice. In the eye of the law...in MY eyes you'll be no different from HIM.

Batman: How many more lives are we going to let him ruin?

Jim Gordon: I don't care. I won't let him ruin yours.

Batman: It was from an alley like this one that a MAN and a GUN emerged from the darkness and MURDERED my mother and father. In that single moment my childhood ENDED. I made a promis on the grave of my parents that I would rid this city of the evil that too their lives. Tonight...I nearly became a part of that evil...

In Batman: The Man Who Laughs, the Joker tried to poison the water supply of millions of Gothamites. The Joker missed Batman and was going to fall over, but Batman caught him. Batman held him over the poisoned water for some time.

Batman: This water is filled with enough poison to kill thousands. It would be so easy to just let him fall into it. So many are dead because of this man...I can't. Damn it. I can't.

Batman had a conversation with Jason Todd, the Red Hood, over killing the Joker in Batman #650 in the Under the Hood arc:

Jason Todd: Ignoring what he's done in the past. Blindly, stupidly, disregarding the entire graveyards he's filled, the thousands who have suffered...the friends he's crippled...I thought...I thought killing ME--that I'd be the last person you'd ever let him hurt. If it had been you that he beat to a bloody mess. If it had been you that he left in agony. If he had taken YOU from this world......I would have done nothing but search the planet for this pathetic pile of evil, death-worshiping garbage......and sent him off to hell.

Batman: You don't understand. I don't think you've ever understood.

Jason Todd: What? Your moral code just won't allow for that? It's too hard to "cross that line"?

Batman: No. God almighty...no. It'd be too damned easy. All I have ever wanted to do is kill him. For years a day hasn't gone by where I haven't envisioned taking him......taking him and spending and entire month putting him through the most horrendous, mind-boggling forms of torture. All of it building to an end with him broken, butchered and maimed...pleading--SCREAMING--in the worst kind of agony as he careens into a monstrous death.

Joker: Aw...y'see, I've thought about that too...

Batman: I want him dead--maybe more than I've ever wanted anything. But if I do that, if I allow myself to go down into that place...I'll never come back.

Jason Todd: Why?

Batman: What?

Jason Todd: Why do all the cub scouts in spandex always say that? "If I cross that line, there's no coming back." I'm not talking about killing Cobblepot and Scarecrow or Clayface. Not Riddler or Dent...I'm talking about HIM. Just him. And doing it because......because he took me away from you.

Batman: I can't. I'm sorry. I just can't

Joker: That is SO sweet.

Jason Todd: Well, you won't have a choice.

Batman: I won't--

Jason Todd: This is it. This is the time you decide. If you won't kill this psychotic piece of filth......I WILL. You want to stop me? You're going to have to kill me.

Batman: Stop this. Enough. You know I won't--

Jason Todd: All you've got is a head-shot. I'm going to blow his addled deranged brains out--and if you want to stop it...you're going to have to shoot ME. Right in my FACE.

Joker: This is turning out SO much better than I thought...

Batman: Stop this...

Jason Todd: It's him or me. You have to decide.

Batman: Please, don't...

Jason Todd: I'll count to "three."

Batman: PUT THE GUN DOWN.

Jason Todd: One

Batman: DON'T.

Jason Todd: Two.

Batman: NO!

Jason Todd: Thr--

*Batman throws a batarang at Jason Todd

Joker: You GOT him!! You expert, rooting-tooting, eagle-eyed, goth, marksman sonofa@##$% !Ya banked that bata-thingie off the pipe!!! HA! HA! HA! Oh, GOD!! I love it!! You managed to find a way to win......and everybody still LOSES!!Except ME, my dark little pumpkin pies. I'm the one who's gonna get what he want tonight. Badda bing, badda boom.

Batman: NO!

Joker: YES. Doncha' just looooove how it's all ending. Toodles

*Joker blows up the building

Batman: JAAAASOOON!!!

*end of issue

In Wonder Woman #220 in the psuedo-crossover of The OMAC Project, Wonder Woman told the story of how she killed Maxwell Lord and why she did it. To save Superman. She had no choice because Black King Lord would have continued to take control of him and kill people like he almost did to Batman.

Wonder Woman: I have told you that I an NOT ashamed of what I have done. I DID what was REQUIRED to save not only Kal, but COUNTLESS others. But I know there is a PRICE for my actions. I know there will be MANY who will NOT understand. And MORE, perhaps, who will NOT forgive. But I wanted YOU to know. It was IMPORTANT that you heard it from me FIRST. Important to know if I have killed THIS friendship, as well. Bruce? Bruce...say something......please.

Batman: Get out.

In Infinite Crisis #7, during the Battle of Metropolis, Nightwing was nearly killed by Alexander Luthor and pulled a gun on him:

Batman: No one else DIES! Not because of YOU!

Robin: BATMAN!

Alexander Luthor: We're not so different, Bruce. Your parents were murdered. You work to make the STREETS they were killed on SAFE. My EARTH was murdered. I work to make the UNIVERSE it was killed in SAFE. YOu think too SMALL. You save STREET CORNER by STREET CORNER. You work too HARD for too LITTLE. But you finally decided to take a SHORTCUT with BROTHER EYE. You just weren't going to take it FAR enough. You need to learn to take SHORTCUTS to JUSTICE.

*Batman punches Alexander Luthor and picks up a gun that Deathstroke dropped before being defeated by Batman, Nightwing, and Robin.

Batman: I know what Superman is going through. He doesn't DESERVE that. Superboy didn't deserve that.

*Batman aims the gun at Alexander Luthor's head.

Batman: What do YOU deserve?

*Batman prepares to fire the gun.

Wonder Woman: Bruce

*Wonder Woman unsheaths her sword, throws it on the ground causing it to smash.

Wonder Woman: It's not worth it.

Batman: I know. Dammit.

*Batman throws that gun next to Wonder Woman's sword.

In Batman #657 during the Batman and Son arc. Damien reveals the Spook's head to Robin.

Damian: He CHALLENGED me. He challenged me to show what I could do, so I went out tonight. "Fight crime"? I can do that. I fought crime TONIGHT. Crime LOST.

Robin: YOU CAN'T DO THAT! WE DON'T KILL!

In the next issue, Batman #658, Batman scolds Damien for the havok he's caused in Wayne Manor and the Batcave and Gotham:

Batman: Damian, with ME! You're too DANGEROUS to be left alone.

Damian: Let me HELP you.

Batman: Help me? How can I trust YOU after this? You almost KILLED Robin!

Damian: But thanks to me, THE SPOOK will never harm ANYONE ever again.

Batman: The Spook is DEAD! You murdered him!

There, actual in-continuity proof that Batman is against all forms of murder or kill. PERIOD. These scenes are word for word. It is why I ban you from reading anymore stories about Batman.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

I ban you from further reading any Batman comics due to your complete lack of understanding of Batman. BATMAN DOES NOT KILL. BATMAN IS ONE OF THE ONLY SUPERHEROES THAT HAS NOT KILLED. BATMAN DOES NOT TOLERATE HIS ASSOCIATES KILLING!

In Batman #404 during the Batman: Year One arc by Frank Miller. Bruce Wayne was shot by what are most likely corrupt cops. The car crashed because he knocked the cops out in their car, causing it to catch on fire.


In Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #120 during the No Man's Land arc Batman held a meeting with Robin, Nightwing, Azrael, Oracle, and gave Cassandra Cain the mantle of Batgirl


Nightwing and Robin went out for a "walk" and talked about the situation over Batman being accused of murder in Batman Gotham Knights #26 in the Bruce Wayne: Murderer arc. He stated:


In Batman #614 during the Hush arc, Batman almost went through in killing the Joker after he "killed" his childhood friend "Dr. Thomas Elliot." Jim Gordon, whose daughter was paraylized by the Joker, whose wife was murdered by the Joker, would not let him do it:


In Batman: The Man Who Laughs, the Joker tried to poison the water supply of millions of Gothamites. The Joker missed Batman and was going to fall over, but Batman caught him. Batman held him over the poisoned water for some time.


Batman had a conversation with Jason Todd, the Red Hood, over killing the Joker in Batman #650 in the Under the Hood arc:


In Wonder Woman #220 in the psuedo-crossover of The OMAC Project, Wonder Woman told the story of how she killed Maxwell Lord and why she did it. To save Superman. She had no choice because Black King Lord would have continued to take control of him and kill people like he almost did to Batman.


In Infinite Crisis #7, during the Battle of Metropolis, Nightwing was nearly killed by Alexander Luthor and pulled a gun on him:


There, actual in-continuity proof that Batman is against all forms of murder or kill. PERIOD. These scenes are word for word. It is why I ban you from reading anymore stories about Batman.

Who are you baning?Your argument is sound but it's only refrence's in-continuity Batman.The Batman of History[what I meen is from the Begining]did indeed kill.He was intended to be a vigalante in every sence of the word.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Who are you baning?Your argument is sound but it's only refrence's in-continuity Batman.The Batman of History[what I meen is from the Begining]did indeed kill.He was intended to be a vigalante in every sence of the word.

Silentflute. The banning is only a guesture, it doesn't mean that I'm actually forbidding him from reading Batman. It's my way of telling him that he is not a Batman fan at all, he is a Frank Miller fan. One with a hard-on for Frank Miller.

Batman only had a gun for only a few issues. But after Batman #1 (Detective Comics was not yet a full Batman book), Batman no longer killed or used a gun under editorial mandate. It's not like it's had any significant impact due to:
1. It was erased from continuity since then pretty much.

2. Bob Kane and Bill Finger expressed that they liked the non-killing Batman much better.

3. Batman only had a gun for less than a year when the character was still being developed, just like Superman who killed people in his very first appearances.