The Dark Knight Rises - letdown or not?

[Fudgie]

In his opinion on the "lameness" of the writing in TDKR.

His well written, well backed up, detailed opinion.

Bane, sitting in the sewer with his henchmen: "Hmmmm, you know what I'd really like is that those controlling Gotham had an 8 year old lie they were covering up, and for the proof of that lie, to really kick off my plans."

Henchmen arrive with an unconscious Gordon with a letter in his jacket exposing an 8 year old lie that those controlling Gotham had been covering up.

Bane: "Hello? What's this?"

Heh it's funny cos it's true.

Not for me. I always enjoy The Guard's posts. They are concise, thorough, and well supported arguments.

Blowing half of it up and holding them hostage with a bomb would have sufficed with that.

Bane's plan never ever hindered on learning the truth about Harvey Dent, so obviously he never felt he needed anything like that for his plan to work. It was just an accidental discovery.

In hindsight what did it achieve? You never see any of the reactions from regular citizens on the revelations about Harvey Dent. All you get is moralistic Blake giving Gordon a verbal dressing down for it.

All it did was serve as an excuse to release a thousand convicted murderers, thieves, rapists etc and put guns in their hands. What a wonderful way to give Gotham hope.

Quoted for truth.

 

[Fudgie]

Yes. But he was still gonna blow up Gotham. He relied on Blackgate inmates to keep the people off the streets, to make Bruce suffer. Gotham would suffer in the same way as Bruce was. The only glimmer of hope was that they were gonna survive. That a new order would arise after all of that, different from anything else. Obviously that was never gonna happen, but it played on the idea of a revolution. When nothing is left, survival was the only hope Gotham had, something that was made unreachable by Bane, and for Bruce to watch painfully.

Bane never relied on the Blackgate guys to keep anyone off the streets. He had his LOS men for that. Did ya think he came to Gotham with this scheme and not consider if he had the man power to do what he had to do?

Bane was waffling on and on about giving Gotham back to the people. So ya can't do that by not even letting people on their own streets hahaha. It was only the rich and the Cops they were after.

 

[BlueLightning]

My point is how different would Bruce torture be if Blackgate prisoners would be still in jail? It adds a lot of pain to see the city being mistreated like that. That doesn't undermine Bane's "revolution" or his hopelessness intentions. He was offering something to the people of Gotham, it just wasn't something that was right. That's why people are shut down in their houses. If Bane's revolution was a good thing, perhaps the people wouldn't act that way. Their chance of survival all of this was the hope Bane was feeding them. It was survival, that doesn't mean that things would go on as nothing happened after that.

 

[Fudgie]

Bruce's pain would be the same cos he knew Bane was gonna nuke the city whether there was inmates loose or not. Bane could have released Lions and tigers and bears from Gotham Zoo onto the streets, the city was still gonna be nuked with everyone thinking they might survive.

Inmates didn't change anything.

 

[BlueLightning]

I think they did. Because there is an added sense of danger.

 

[Fudgie]

More dangerous than a nuclear bomb and a gang of LOS with Wayne Enterprises armory in their possession.

Heh yeah I can see how armed inmates are worse than all that. Bruce should be real worried about them. They were just added lackeys for Bane, bub. That's all they were.

 

[BlueLightning]

Most people of Gotham didn't had a clue that they were gonna detonate the bomb. Bane didn't take charge of Gotham's occupation, he said it himself. He was gonna give the power to "the people". The police being incapacitated left remaining the ordinary citizens and the Blackgate prisoners. Seeing the dangerousness (is that even a word?) of them ensured Gotham's citizens being under control, shuttered down in their houses.

 

[SentinelMind]

Absolutely. Logic can be applied to all of the villains in this trilogy except in TDKR.



So did the Joker and Ra's, but you could understand from their perspective why they had the beliefs they had.

Ra's saw a city full of crime and corruption. He believed the only way to save it was to kill it. A crazy solution but one you could understand from the perspective of a man like him. It's not hard to see why someone like that feels something is so rotten it can't be saved, and execution is the only cure.

The Joker believed everyone was as bad as he was deep down, and he set out to prove it. Another crazy motive, but one you could understand. He did manage to break Harvey Dent. Hence why Batman took the fall for Dent's crimes, because "The Joker cannot win". Batman and Gordon feared Gotham would lose hope because of what happened to Dent.

Destroying a city that had low crime statistics and was prospering in a peace time makes no sense. Not even from a crazy criminal's perspective.

Bane and Talia wanted to destroy Gotham for deep-seated psychological reasons, not because of a consistent well-reasoned argument. They wanted to achieve what their father figure who saved them and raised them could not. They're trying to achieve validation in a life that seemed empty and hopeless. The LOS guys are maladjusted thugs clinging onto an empty promise. They cling onto a purpose to direct their anger and resentment for the abuse in their lives.

Bruce returned as Batman because he had no purpose outside of his life as Bruce Wayne. He had other avenues of challenging Bane than being Batman..(as Alfred suggested..helping the police or turning over his resources)...but he wanted to be Batman because his life had no purpose and he couldn't control the anger within him. He also was reckless in heading towards Bane head on due to his arrogance. They are people who are hopeless who attract danger and risk in their lives. He even asked why he wasn't killed for Christ's sake..he was begging to die. It wasn't until he realized his reckless could cause more harm, not just to him, but his loved ones and rest of Gotham that he swore to protect, that he found the motivation to overcome his challenges and move past his anger. It was that point Batman chose to push his past beside him for the greater good. This was something that Bane and Talia could not do...they could not see any purpose to their lives than trying to imitate their father.

Look at John Doe in Se7en. He kills people because he hates people, not because "people are too content with sin." John Doe committed several sins himself (outside of the murders) and has no argument when confronted for it. People are hypocrites but that doesn't stop them from directing their anger at others and creating philosophical justification for it.

Just because Gotham had low statistical organized crime rates doesn't mean it was free from corruption or there was no abuse of power. It doesn't matter to fanatics like Ra, Bane, and Talia. They are taking their anger out on a system that symbolically threatens their existence and their agenda. That's the whole point. You can find flaws in any society and create justification to want to destroy the entire society. That's how fanatics think.

 

[SentinelMind]

Although I may concede The Dark Knight is better than The Dark Knight Rises holistically...I definitely felt this movie was more emotional and creative movie than TDK.

 

[Anno_Domini]

His well written, well backed up, detailed opinion.

All that really matters is the bold. And that is QFT material.

 

[SentinelMind]

Destroying a city that had low crime statistics and was prospering in a peace time makes no sense. Not even from a crazy criminal's perspective.

Ra, The Joker, Bane, Scarecrow are motivated by controlling symbols of their oppression and past abuse. Just like Batman uses his motif to fight crime representative of his lost youth. These people are broken inside and no amount of logical reasoning can change their agenda. These people will see what they want to see. Bruce had more to offer but chose to live like a recluse and basically give up....and then create a justification to become Batman again.

Bane and Talia saw a corrupt Western society of excess that defeated their father figure. The society had to be destroyed in order for them to move beyond the failure that inhibits their development. That's all there is to it. No matter how low the organized crime rates were, that doesn't indicate there is no corruption or police state abuse in the city. When you're dealing with fanatics like Bane, ...all you need is to give them a little and they'll create a mile of justification out of it.

 

[The Joker]

Bane and Talia wanted to destroy Gotham for deep-seated psychological reasons, not because of a consistent well-reasoned argument.

That much we agree on. Hence why their motivation was flawed, thin, weak, unconvincing, and terribly executed.

They wanted to achieve what their father figure who saved them and raised them could not. They're trying to achieve validation in a life that seemed empty and hopeless. The LOS guys are maladjusted thugs clinging onto an empty promise. They cling onto a purpose to direct their anger and resentment for the abuse in their lives.

Where on earth did you get any of that in the movie? Name me the scene. Quote me the lines. The only reason why they were there was because of Talia. She was doing it to honor her father by finishing his work. That's the only explanation and insight you're given in the movie for it.

Bane was only doing it out of his love for Talia. He was willing to die for her in the pit when she was a child. And he was willing to die for her again just so she could fulfill her father's work.

Basically he was doing it out of love for her. Hence why he is so often accused of being her lackey or side kick.

Bruce returned as Batman because he had no purpose outside of his life as Bruce Wayne. He had other avenues of challenging Bane than being Batman..(as Alfred suggested..helping the police or turning over his resources)...but he wanted to be Batman because his life had no purpose and he couldn't control the anger within him. He also was reckless in heading towards Bane head on due to his arrogance. They are people who are hopeless who attract danger and risk in their lives. He even asked why he wasn't killed for Christ's sake..he was begging to die. It wasn't until he realized his reckless could cause more harm, not just to him, but his loved ones and rest of Gotham that he swore to protect, that he found the motivation to overcome his challenges and move past his anger. It was that point Batman chose to push his past beside him for the greater good. This was something that Bane and Talia could not do...they could not see any purpose to their lives than trying to imitate their father.

Bruce came back as Batman because the city needed him. How could his resources help stop Bane? Would his resources have saved the hostages at the stock exchange? Would his resources have saved Selina's life on the rooftop with Bane's men? Would his resources have stopped the siege of Gotham? Would his resources be of any use with a nuclear bomb and an army of terrorists swarming the city?

Of course not. Alfred was trying to dissuade Bruce from continuing as Batman again because he was physically out of shape and he believed he had a no regard for his own life any more. He was afraid he'd get himself killed.

Bane and Talia believed in the cause they were fighting for. Just like with Ra's and the Joker. The difference is with Ra's his cause had some merit because he was trying to destroy a city that full of crime and corruption. When he said Gotham was a dirty hopeless city, it was. The Joker did manage to destroy the symbol of hope in Gotham City. That's why Batman and Gordon covered it up. They knew there was truth to what Joker said.

Where's the rationale behind what Bane and Talia were doing? There is none.

Just because Gotham had low statistical organized crime rates doesn't mean it was free from corruption or there was no abuse of power.

There is not a city in the whole entire world where something to some degree like that isn't happening. Did the LOS go and nuke all of those cities, too? No of course not. But there is also not a city in the world where the crime rates are so low that the Mayor is going to give the Police Commissioner early retirement.

It doesn't matter to fanatics like Ra, Bane, and Talia. They are taking their anger out on a system that symbolically threatens their existence and their agenda. That's the whole point.

No it's not the whole point. I feel like you watched an entirely different set of movies. Ra's Al Ghul came to Gotham City to destroy it because it WAS full of crime and corruption. That is an undeniable fact. Bruce even acknowledge it. It was his reason for going to Gotham and becoming Batman. To save it from this horrible condition it was in.

Ra's did not dream this up out of thin air. It had nothing to do with it threatening his existence. He was a crusader for justice. That's why Bruce went and trained with him in the first place. It was just their methods of carrying out justice that he disagreed with. Namely he would not be an executioner.

 

[The Joker]

Ra, The Joker, Bane, Scarecrow are motivated by controlling symbols of their oppression and past abuse. Just like Batman uses his motif to fight crime representative of his lost youth. These people are broken inside and no amount of logical reasoning can change their agenda. These people will see what they want to see. Bruce had more to offer but chose to live like a recluse and basically give up....and then create a justification to become Batman again.

Scarecrow was such a thinly developed character that there's no fruitful discussion that can be made from what motivated his character. The only insight you get is a throwaway line to Rachel that he has a fascination with the mind.

The Joker believed people were as corruptible as he was when he was pushed over the edge, and deep down they are just as bad as he was. Listen to his stories about how he got his scars. Something terrible happened to him and "Now I see the funny side".

Ra's is a crusader for justice based on injustices that happened to him, namely his wife being taken from him, like Bruce losing his parents.

All great understandable motivations.

Bane, you never hear why he was in the pit in the first place, why he took it upon himself to protect Talia, why he was against the rich, why he hates Bruce for not wanting to be a villain, for fighting against a villainous organization. All we do know is Bane does whatever Talia wants because he loves her and is loyal to her.

None of this is actually explored. How is that not a thin under developed character?

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Seriously? you're trying to ascribe logic and reason to suicidal demagogues? Those people see what they want to see. Talia was easily able to infiltrate Wayne Enterprise using fraud. The police got so complacent Bane was able to set up fortress in sewers to an unprepared police force. Gordon himself was engaged in corruption to get the Dent Act passed. Gotham City wasn't perfect and when there is passion to validate oneself people will go to great lengths to create the justification to destroy their vice no matter what it is.

I don't think just saying Bane and Talia were crazy is a good reason to explain why they were in Gotham City to blow it all up. Chris Nolan is a smarter director than that usually. He always was able to make his villains very good and saying why they wanted to do what they were doing.

I did not feel that in The Dark Knight Rises. It would have been better I think if they had found out Harvey Dent being a hero was a lie and then they know Gotham City and it's peace time was all fake and it needed to be destroyed.

They did not know that in The Dark Knight Rises until later.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

I think they did. Because there is an added sense of danger.

I think that when the city is under the threat of a bomb then things can not get any more dangerous than that.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Ra, The Joker, Bane, Scarecrow are motivated by controlling symbols of their oppression and past abuse. Just like Batman uses his motif to fight crime representative of his lost youth. These people are broken inside and no amount of logical reasoning can change their agenda. These people will see what they want to see. Bruce had more to offer but chose to live like a recluse and basically give up....and then create a justification to become Batman again.

Bruce gave up because Batman wasn't needed any more. Crime was gone thanks to Harvey Dent and the Dent Act. He tried to help the city's resources as Bruce Wayne after that but his clean energy project failed. So he felt he had nothing else to offer.

 

[SentinelMind]

That much we agree on. Hence why their motivation was flawed, thin, weak, unconvincing, and terribly executed.

Is The Joker going to stop being the Joker in TDK because the people of Gotham didn't blow up the ship of criminals....no..he's going to ignore is failure and cling to his belief that everyone is really....really....really just like him....they just need even bigger push. That's how narrow-minded fanatics think. They ignore their failures and look for signs to justify the anger they already see. People are by nature emotional beings...not rational ones...they create the rational justification afterwards. We can rise above our nature, but that doesn't change our nature. All the villains experienced pain that they cannot escape from and will create a narrow vision to justify their agenda.

Where on earth did you get any of that in the movie? Name me the scene. Quote me the lines. The only reason why they were there was because of Talia. She was doing it to honor her father by finishing his work. That's the only explanation and insight you're given in the movie for it.

Bane was only doing it out of his love for Talia. He was willing to die for her in the pit when she was a child. And he was willing to die for her again just so she could fulfill her father's work.

Basically he was doing it out of love for her. Hence why he is so often accused of being her lackey or side kick.

Talia is an innocent child condemned to the same fate Bane was...and he uses the child to project the "correction" of the wrong-doing he's experienced. It's like how people want to root for the guy who grew up in the same city as you or how you want your child to achieve the success you never experienced. He fought to protect her in the pit prison to create a reminder of the life and hope that he believes he should have received as child. He allows her opportunity to escape and aligns himself with only true friend in the world. He rose up in the League of Shadows...but he was too eccentric and extreme for Ra so he was abandoned. He had no purpose in life and can't confront his horrific upbringing. He now wants to align with his friend and create a symbol that his extreme, erratic practices CAN be a model for success. He is validating his work in eyes of millions and in face of a civilization that represents his oppression. He is trying to rise above Ra as a leader...along with his friend.

Bruce came back as Batman because the city needed him. How could his resources help stop Bane? Would his resources have saved the hostages at the stock exchange? Would his resources have saved Selina's life on the rooftop with Bane's men? Would his resources have stopped the siege of Gotham? Would his resources be of any use with a nuclear bomb and an army of terrorists swarming the city?

Of course not. Alfred was trying to dissuade Bruce from continuing as Batman again because he was physically out of shape and he believed he had a no regard for his own life any more. He was afraid he'd get himself killed.

Bruce lives because of Bane's mercy essentially (I'm willing to accept this is a James Bondish weakness of plot). The point I'm making though is going down in the pit alone was pretty reckless of Bruce. He was not ready for Bane or his army. There were other avenues...working with police, working with Gordon...could have been used to stop Bane. He ignores all voices of reason, even Alfred who he knows wants to protect him and allows him to leave. He wants to mask up and fight Bane mano e mano...big mistake. Even if he had beaten Bane with his fist, he could have gotten shot at any moment. It was a stupid plan...a stupid plan brought upon by Bruce's arrogance.

Bane and Talia believed in the cause they were fighting for. Just like with Ra's and the Joker. The difference is with Ra's his cause had some merit because he was trying to destroy a city that full of crime and corruption. When he said Gotham was a dirty hopeless city, it was. The Joker did manage to destroy the symbol of hope in Gotham City. That's why Batman and Gordon covered it up. They knew there was truth to what Joker said.

Where's the rationale behind what Bane and Talia were doing? There is none.

People are corrupt. That is a fact of life....a fact that's no going away no matter how the chairs on the ship is being decked...no matter who is in power. All the villains use this fact and create a smooth-talking rhetoric echo chamber in their mind to justify killing others. It's true crime was near height under first two movies (although Joker came around when crime was falling...it doesn't matter to him though), but poverty and class division was growing in TDKR. The orphanage was losing funding, orphans running around on the streets unsupervised, and thieves like Selina and her cronies was getting desperate. There was an system of downtrodden thieves that were drawn to Bane's false message of redistribution of power. Bane was able to divide people and motivate them create their own hell....to demonstrate that their Western society has a very light curtain hiding a truly corrupted core.

All the villains are just exposing people's corruption, wherever it lied, and using to justify killing, maiming, torturing people.....torture people that symbolized some deep-seated past abuse or failure they experience.

There is not a city in the whole entire world where something to some degree like that isn't happening. Did the LOS go and nuke all of those cities, too? No of course not. But there is also not a city in the world where the crime rates are so low that the Mayor is going to give the Police Commissioner early retirement.

NYC is listed as one of the safest major cities in the US....but would you understand why terrorists would want to target such a high profile city? Regardless of their current crime statistics of Gotham, there was still corruption in the administration of city. Gotham is still the highlight of their father's failure.

No it's not the whole point. I feel like you watched an entirely different set of movies. Ra's Al Ghul came to Gotham City to destroy it because it WAS full of crime and corruption. That is an undeniable fact. Bruce even acknowledge it. It was his reason for going to Gotham and becoming Batman. To save it from this horrible condition it was in.

Ra's did not dream this up out of thin air. It had nothing to do with it threatening his existence. He was a crusader for justice. That's why Bruce went and trained with him in the first place. It was just their methods of carrying out justice that he disagreed with. Namely he would not be an executioner.

The League of Shadows are minimalist, traditionalist, fringe society of ninjas and assassins. They are threatened by corrupted, excessive, gluttonious Western civilization that is governing world affairs. Taking out Gotham is a pinnacle sign of a new world order than they are trying to bring forth. The League of Shadows is not easily fooled by the growing police state that is trying to hide economic and societal discontent growing in Gotham. That is the justification to continue their onslaught on Gotham...it was never about the crime....it was about their way of life and value system that LOS detested.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Just because Gotham had low statistical organized crime rates doesn't mean it was free from corruption or there was no abuse of power. It doesn't matter to fanatics like Ra, Bane, and Talia. They are taking their anger out on a system that symbolically threatens their existence and their agenda. That's the whole point. You can find flaws in any society and create justification to want to destroy the entire society. That's how fanatics think.

In The Dark Knight Rises Bruce has a vision where he sees Ra's Al Ghul. Ra's says that the only thing Bruce managed to achieve as Batman was based on a lie. He says that's why Gotham cannot be saved and must die.

That is how Ra's Al Ghul really thinks and operated the League of Shadows. That's not how Bane and Talia did it.

 

[SentinelMind]

Bruce gave up because Batman wasn't needed any more. Crime was gone thanks to Harvey Dent and the Dent Act. He tried to help the city's resources as Bruce Wayne after that but his clean energy project failed. So he felt he had nothing else to offer.

Organized crime went down...but at price of a growing police state and administration engaging in their own corruption to make everyone feel everything is all right as the economy was tanking.

 

[SentinelMind]

In The Dark Knight Rises Bruce has a vision where he sees Ra's Al Ghul. Ra's says that the only thing Bruce managed to achieve as Batman was based on a lie. He says that's why Gotham cannot be saved and must die.

That is how Ra's Al Ghul really thinks and operated the League of Shadows. That's not how Bane and Talia did it.

Instead of mobsters running Gotham City...it was now wealthy fat cats like Daggert and the politically connected. It's still a far cry from the utopian vision of justice and living that League of Shadows had. Bane and Talia simply followed the source of the moving target of corruption within the city.

Look at how Talia lectured Bruce....how he is living a lie to escape a past and create a flimsy fabrication of happiness and justice when corruption is molding at the core of the city. A core she was so easily able to influence.

 

[SentinelMind]

Scarecrow was such a thinly developed character that there's no fruitful discussion that can be made from what motivated his character. The only insight you get is a throwaway line to Rachel that he has a fascination with the mind.

There isn't a huge discussion of Scarecrow's past, but it seems obvious to me he was bullied in his past and then created a fascination of instilling fear into others using psychology. He had the typical beta/omega type personality in the all three films.

 

[The Joker]

Is The Joker going to stop being the Joker in TDK because the people of Gotham didn't blow up the ship of criminals....no..he's going to ignore is failure and cling to his belief that everyone is really....really....really just like him....they just need even bigger push. That's how narrow-minded fanatics think. They ignore their failures and look for signs to justify the anger they already see.

Yes, you could look at it that way if that was Joker's complete entire plan. But it wasn't. He believed that their spirits would break completely once they got a good look at what Joker managed to do with Harvey Dent.

He was not banking his whole plan on the ferries set up. "You didn't think I'd risk losing the battle for Gotham's soul in a fist fight with you. Noooo you need an ace in the hole. Mine's Harvey".

Talia is an innocent child condemned to the same fate Bane was...and he uses the child to project the "correction" of the wrong-doing he's experienced. It's like how people want to root for the guy who grew up in the same city as you or how you want your child to achieve the success you never experienced. He fought to protect her in the pit prison to create a reminder of the life and hope that he believes he should have received as child.

All of this is complete and utter conjecture and not touched upon once in the whole movie.Where did Bane ever equate his life to Talia's? Or hers to his? Where did Bane ever even talk about his past beyond saying he was born in darkness?

You can only present what the movie tells you or show you.

He allows her opportunity to escape and aligns himself with only true friend in the world. He rose up in the League of Shadows...but he was too eccentric and extreme for Ra so he was abandoned.

Again this is untrue. Talia clarified this definitively when she said Bane was excommunicated because he was a reminder to Ra's about what happened to his wife in the pit. Nothing to do with him being too extreme.

Bruce lives because of Bane's mercy essentially (I'm willing to accept this is a James Bondish weakness of plot). The point I'm making though is going down in the pit alone was pretty reckless of Bruce.

I'm confused. What pit are you talking about? Bruce didn't go into any pit willingly. Do you mean the sewers?

He was not ready for Bane or his army. There were other avenues...working with police, working with Gordon...could have been used to stop Bane.

He couldn't work with the Police because he was being hunted by them for Harvey Dent's murder. Gordon was laid up in hospital.

What other options did he have? Sit back and let Bane do what ever he wanted? This wasn't a situation where a charitable donation to the police fund is going to help.

He ignores all voices of reason, even Alfred who he knows wants to protect him and allows him to leave. He wants to mask up and fight Bane mano e mano...big mistake. Even if he had beaten Bane with his fist, he could have gotten shot at any moment. It was a stupid plan...a stupid plan brought upon by Bruce's arrogance.

That wasn't his defining mistake. His mistake was trusting Selina who set him up and handed him over to Bane. Yes, he was foolish for trying to fight Bane given his current condition and frame of mind, but that wasn't the defining element of his downfall there. Trusting Selina was. She walked him right into a trap.

People are corrupt. That is a fact of life....a fact that's no going away no matter how the chairs on the ship is being decked...no matter who is in power. All the villains use this fact and create a smooth-talking rhetoric echo chamber in their mind to justify killing others.

Yes, but the key difference is two of the villains were in a city with an overwhelming amount of corruption. Bane and Talia were not. So there was justifications and logic in the ideals of Ra's and Joker.

It's true crime was near height under first two movies (although Joker came around when crime was falling...it doesn't matter to him though)

Crime was not down initially in TDK. The only difference was Maroni had taken over Falcone's position, the underworld had become more scared of Batman, and had redefined their methods, like meeting in day time.

Crime went down when Harvey Dent netted half of the city's criminals in court. By then Joker had already made his offer to the mob to take out Batman. Joker saw the problem coming ahead of time.

but poverty and class division was growing in TDKR. The orphanage was losing funding, orphans running around on the streets unsupervised, and thieves like Selina and her cronies was getting desperate. There was an system of downtrodden thieves that were drawn to Bane's false message of redistribution of power. Bane was able to divide people and motivate them create their own hell....to demonstrate that their Western society has a very light curtain hiding a truly corrupted core.

Selina is a thief, every city has thieves. Selina was not desperate, she just wanted a brand new life with the clean slate device. She couldn't start fresh because her past was always catching up to her. Every city has poor people, homeless people etc. It doesn't mean there is a massive class division.

Where was this class division in TDKR beyond Selina saying that the rich are all fat cats who just take take take?

NYC is listed as one of the safest major cities in the US....but would you understand why terrorists would want to target such a high profile city?

Yes, that's a strike against the U.S. itself as a country by attacking one of it's most prominent cities. It had nothing to do with the crime rates of the city. Al Queada don't pride themselves on helping cities that are hopeless and full of corruption.

Regardless of their current crime statistics of Gotham, there was still corruption in the administration of city. Gotham is still the highlight of their father's failure.

What corruption in the administration was the LOS aware of? None at all.

The League of Shadows are minimalist, traditionalist, fringe society of ninjas and assassins. They are threatened by corrupted, excessive, gluttonious Western civilization that is governing world affairs. Taking out Gotham is a pinnacle sign of a new world order than they are trying to bring forth. The League of Shadows is not easily fooled by the growing police state that is trying to hide economic and societal discontent growing in Gotham. That is the justification to continue their onslaught on Gotham...it was never about the crime....it was about their way of life and value system that LOS detested.

Conjecture again. This is all something you have made up on your own, and not what the movies represented. Gotham City was not a corrupted, excessive, gluttonous western civilization in TDKR.

In Batman Begins Ra's said "The League of Shadow has been a check against human corruption for thousands of years. Crime, despair, this is not how man was supposed to live".

There was no crime in TDKR. You raise some point about poverty. Poverty is not crime. Crime rates were not going up because poverty can cause people to turn to crime either as it so often does;

http://www.thestate.com/2012/07/25/2367164/columbia-police-homeless-commited.html#.UKe6T4aImdk

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/dec/23/homeless-committing-crimes-for-shelter

http://www.poverties.org/poverty-and-crime.html

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPorta...&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED269713

http://www.womensviewsonnews.org/2010/12/one-in-five-homeless-women-turn-to-prostitution/

http://www.thelocal.se/18230/20090315/

So if poverty was such an issue then the crime rates would be spiking again. Creating more Joe Chills like it did in Batman Begins.

 

[The Joker]

There isn't a huge discussion of Scarecrow's past, but it seems obvious to me he was bullied in his past and then created a fascination of instilling fear into others using psychology. He had the typical beta/omega type personality in the all three films.

I didn't pick that up at all. He talks like a psychiatrist fascinated with the mind and tapping into the fears of it. He enjoys the mind's power over the body he says. He never gave the impression he had a complex from being bullied.

That's where it comes from in the comics, and unlike in the movies, the comics tap into that.

 

[Fudgie]

All that really matters is the bold.

Not to me it isn't. It's what in it that counts.

I don't think just saying Bane and Talia were crazy is a good reason to explain why they were in Gotham City to blow it all up. Chris Nolan is a smarter director than that usually. He always was able to make his villains very good and saying why they wanted to do what they were doing.

I did not feel that in The Dark Knight Rises. It would have been better I think if they had found out Harvey Dent being a hero was a lie and then they know Gotham City and it's peace time was all fake and it needed to be destroyed.

They did not know that in The Dark Knight Rises until later.

Quoted for truth.

 

[lixdexia]

i felt the film was good, but dragged in several parts. it felt much longer than it was