The Dark Knight Rises Sewer Fight vs. The Winter Soldier Highway Fight

[Mandon Knight]

F**k me, talk about....

 

[Tony Stark]

F**k me, talk about....

Yep.

 

[shauner111]

Quote the dialogue that said he was doing it because he loves her. In fact quote any official source associated with the movie that states this.

He can't. Don't worry about it.

 

[Mandon Knight]

He can't. Don't worry about it.

 

[hitmanyr2k]

I'm really surprised it's this close I got an adrenaline rush watching Cap and Winter Soldier go at it in a well-balanced fight where both displayed great skill and neither truly got the upper hand during that fight. The sewer fight was really just Batman getting his ass kicked and he looked nothing like a world-class martial artist. The guy was throwing telegraphed haymakers that an 80 year old could dodge.

 

[shauner111]

Yeah i know, it's pretty funny how he can't quote it eh?

 

[Tony Stark]

I know it's filibustering 101.

"show me proof!"

--shows proof

"what are you saying? please prove that this is true"

-- refers to proof

"you're just making stuff up. prove it, show me any prof what-so-ever"

-- refers back to proof

"I love how you just make accusations and refuse to provide any proof."

 

[John Locke]

Actually in the screenplay Bane does say he's doing it because Ra's rescued him. When Bats accuses him of being Ra's son.

 

[Tony Stark]

I'm really surprised it's this close I got an adrenaline rush watching Cap and Winter Soldier go at it in a well-balanced fight where both displayed great skill and neither truly got the upper hand during that fight. The sewer fight was really just Batman getting his ass kicked and he looked nothing like a world-class martial artist. The guy was throwing telegraphed haymakers that an 80 year old could dodge.

What you said made me think, they tried to portray "old Bruce" at the beginning of the film ala Frank Miller Dark Knight Returns, which would have made an interesting dynamic with him being too old and weak to fight Bane, and some how relying on other tactics to take him down. However they threw in the magic knee brace moment where now he can break concrete with a round house kick immediately after putting it on. They don't address this at all during the film from there on out.

 

[The Joker]

He can't. Don't worry about it.

Watching him trying to justify his theory is like watching a fish out of water. Flailing around aimlessly.

 

[shauner111]

The best is his last post "shows proof " etc. Um, you didn't show proof man. Maybe he's trolling.

 

[Tony Stark]

Except that I'm not the first one to mention it and people have been talking about it since the movie came out:

http://forums.superherohype.com/archive/index.php/t-392669-p-3.html

 

[The Joker]

The best is his last post "shows proof " etc. Um, you didn't show proof man. Maybe he's trolling.

At this stage it's just desperation to save face.

Except that I'm not the first one to mention it and people have been talking about it since the movie came out:

http://forums.superherohype.com/archive/index.php/t-392669-p-3.html

And? People have been talking about Coleman Reese being The Riddler since TDK's release; http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?p=15384799&highlight=riddler#post15384799

And were still talking about it years later; http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=387443

Sometimes stupid unfounded theories linger.

 

[henzINNIT]

I do love how Tony Stark keeps saying that Bane is a lackey. There's no proof of that like Joker says. They're working together. It's never even said that Talia is the mastermind. As far as we know, from what we hear and see in the film, they were in it 50/50. Bane even goes against what Talia asked, and tries to blow Batman's head off at the end.

Bane was the lackey.

In their one scene together, Talia describes Bane as her protector and friend, explains their villain plot and her motivation for it, then tells Bane what to do before she leaves. In that one brief sequence, she totally undermines his agency in the story. It's her vendetta, not his.

The bolded part is especially weak. How is that proof of a 50/50 partnership? That's Bane being disobedient, not calling the shots.

 

[The Joker]

Bane was the lackey.

No, he wasn't.

In their one scene together, Talia describes Bane as her protector and friend, explains their villain plot and her motivation for it, then tells Bane what to do before she leaves. In that one brief sequence, she totally undermines his agency in the story. It's her vendetta, not his.

She describes him as her protector when she was a child in the pit. As adults they are friends. She even says "Goodbye, my friend" before she leaves.

Talia did not explain the villain plot. The plot to destroy Gotham with the nuclear bomb was laid out by Bane long ago. As was the reasoning for the 6 month siege and everything else they did. All Talia reveals is who she really is, and why she is involved in it. So how does Talia explaining her motivation for doing this undermine Bane's? Where does she say this was all her idea, or she masterminded everything, or that Bane was just following her orders? Nothing about her wanting to honor father's work negates Bane's motive to fulfill Ra's Al Ghul's destiny. They share a common goal for different reasons.

 

[shauner111]

 

[Mandon Knight]

Is everyone on a bet in this thread ?

 

[DrCosmic]

It's interesting how differently choreography is valued. It's clear that the actual fighting of the Sewer fight is inferior, no one would argue such a thing, however, some people don't seem to value fights based on the fight, but on things like direction and dialogue. That's really really interesting.

I definitely rate the dialogue in the Sewer fight WELL above the Highway fight... but other than that?

 

[henzINNIT]

No, he wasn't.

She describes him as her protector when she was a child in the pit. As adults they are friends. She even says "Goodbye, my friend" before she leaves.

Oh so she says "Goodbye, my friend"? ...Totally crushes my argument. She's fond of him, so what? Doesn't give Bane any tangeable motivation in the film other than his ties to Talia.

All Talia reveals is who she really is, and why she is involved in it. So how does Talia explaining her motivation for doing this undermine Bane's? Where does she say this was all her idea, or she masterminded everything, or that Bane was just following her orders? Nothing about her wanting to honor father's work negates Bane's motive to fulfill Ra's Al Ghul's destiny. They share a common goal for different reasons.

Talia's motivation totally undermines Bane's. Teasing Bane as the heir of Ras and the League of Shadows, only to pull the rug out and reveal it was actually Talia leaves Bane with nothing. So Bane's motivation is what? Fulfilling Ras Al Ghul's destiny? Cool. I bet all the henchmen Batman slapped about had that goal too. That is weak, all in service of a twist that came too late to resonate. Once again, she has the vendetta, he's along for the ride.

And again (again), as soon as the twist comes, Bane is a lackey. Talia tells him what to do. Show me a scene that implies they are on even ground, because from what I can see they have one proper scene together and she calls the shots.

I'll wait.

 

[The Joker]

Oh so she says "Goodbye, my friend"? ...Totally crushes my argument.

It does. Because lackeys are not referred to as friends, shed tears for each other, and affectionately touched on the face while saying goodbye.

She's fond of him, so what?

So he's her friend, not her henchman, that's what.

Doesn't give Bane any tangeable motivation in the film other than his ties to Talia.

Yes, it does. Bane is there to prove his worth after being excommunicated, by fulfilling Ra's work.

Talia's motivation totally undermines Bane's. Teasing Bane as the heir of Ras and the League of Shadows, only to pull the rug out and reveal it was actually Talia leaves Bane with nothing. So Bane's motivation is what? Fulfilling Ras Al Ghul's destiny? Cool. I bet all the henchmen Batman slapped about had that goal too. That is weak, all in service of a twist that came too late to resonate. Once again, she has the vendetta, he's along for the ride.

See this is exactly why this argument falls apart. You haven't even got the basics right. Bane was never ever teased as the heir to Ra's and the LOS. It was made quite clear from the get-go that Ra's booted Bane out of the LOS. He was never his heir. Even Bruce says "Ra's Al Ghul was the LOS and I beat him. Bane is just a mercenary".

Bane has taken it upon himself to fulfill Ra's' work. Hence his claim of "I am the League of Shadows. I am here to fulfill Ra's Al Ghul's destiny". He's calling himself the LOS. Not him and his men. Even Ra's in BB never did that. He always referred to LOS as "we" like "The LOS has been a check against human corruption for thousands of years. We sacked Rome. Loaded trade ships with plague rats. Burned London to the ground. We return to restore the balance".

The only misdirection we were given in regard to Bane is that he was kicked out for being too extreme. When it was really because Bane was a painful emotional reminder to Ra's about what happened to his wife.

And again (again), as soon as the twist comes, Bane is a lackey. Talia tells him what to do. Show me a scene that implies they are on even ground, because from what I can see they have one proper scene together and she calls the shots.

You call her telling Bane to keep Batman alive to die in the bomb blast (something he doesn't even do for her), one single line, as Talia calling the shots. Well that just reduces nearly every villain team up ever to a boss/lackey scenario then. Harry Osborn told Doc Ock not to hurt Peter in Spider-Man 2 (which Ock ignored much like Bane did regarding Batman). Does that mean Ock was Harry's lackey?

I mean talk about a silly strawman of an argument.

 

[metaphysician]

While the Sewer Scene has its virtues ( it certainly is a dramatic confrontation and is worthy as such ), overall I say the Highway Fight wins out. The Sewer Scene has powerful drama, but the Highway Fight *also* has powerful drama. The potency of the Bucky reveal is less so than the overall Break the Bat, but the Highway Fight also has other strong beats, mainly "the monster suddenly strikes" and Natasha's own terrified confrontation, plus the "everyday heroes" bit. So, call the drama side a wash, more or less.

Once you look beyond the drama and stakes of the scene, into the craft of its design, though? Highway Fight just disappears over the horizon. Its superior in both choreography and story logic.

 

[henzINNIT]

It does. Because lackeys are not referred to as friends, shed tears for each other, and affectionately touched on the face while saying goodbye. So he's her friend, not her henchman, that's what.

Magneto and Mystique are close in the old X-Men films. She's still a henchman. Their relationship doesn't automatically give him agency in the story.

Yes, it does. Bane is there to prove his worth after being excommunicated, by fulfilling Ra's work.

When is this said? Genuine question. You no doubt have watched this film more than me.

See this is exactly why this argument falls apart. You haven't even got the basics right. Bane was never ever teased as the heir to Ra's and the LOS. It was made quite clear from the get-go that Ra's booted Bane out of the LOS. He was never his heir. Even Bruce says "Ra's Al Ghul was the LOS and I beat him. Bane is just a mercenary".

Bane has taken it upon himself to fulfill Ra's' work. Hence his claim of "I am the League of Shadows. I am here to fulfill Ra's Al Ghul's destiny". He's calling himself the LOS. Not him and his men. Even Ra's in BB never did that. He always referred to LOS as "we" like "The LOS has been a check against human corruption for thousands of years. We sacked Rome. Loaded trade ships with plague rats. Burned London to the ground. We return to restore the balance".

The only misdirection we were given in regard to Bane is that he was kicked out for being too extreme. When it was really because Bane was a painful emotional reminder to Ra's about what happened to his wife.

There is misdirection about Bane being the child in the pit. Batman falls for it, the audience is supposed to as well. Not sure anyone did but I'm sure the intention wasn't for the audience to think the protagonist was being dumb.

The 'League of Shadows' for all intents and purposes is back and Bane is the band's frontman... until Talia reveals herself of course.

You call her telling Bane to keep Batman alive to die in the bomb blast (something he doesn't even do for her), one single line, as Talia calling the shots. Well that just reduces nearly every villain team up ever to a boss/lackey scenario then. Harry Osborn told Doc Ock not to hurt Peter in Spider-Man 2 (which Ock ignored much like Bane did regarding Batman). Does that mean Ock was Harry's lackey?

I mean talk about a silly strawman of an argument.

Context is important. Ock and Harry's roles are clearly defined. TDKR is deliberately misleading.

I'm pointing to that line as it demonstrates the only time Talia and Bane are onscreen together as villains. What happens is what happens. Give me a compelling argument for the opposite.

[EDIT] I voted Cap in the end. The sewer fight is brutal in the best possible way, but takes some knocks for shoddy choreography and making Bats look a bit pathetic (an array of high tech gadgets at his disposal and he throws some popping candy?). Still great though, and would wipe the floor with a ton of MCU action sequences.... but not this one. It's gritty, well staged and scored. A fantastic sequence.

 

[Saitou Hajime]

It's interesting how differently choreography is valued. It's clear that the actual fighting of the Sewer fight is inferior, no one would argue such a thing, however, some people don't seem to value fights based on the fight, but on things like direction and dialogue. That's really really interesting.

I definitely rate the dialogue in the Sewer fight WELL above the Highway fight... but other than that?

I think of it terms of rating classic pro wrestling matches: some prefer the drama and the storytelling, while other prefer the workrate.

 

[The Joker]

Magneto and Mystique are close in the old X-Men films. She's still a henchman. Their relationship doesn't automatically give him agency in the story.

Did you ever see Magneto and Mystique call each other friends in the old X-Men movies? Did you see either of them shed a tear for each other? Did you even see them share a personal moment? No. The closest you get is when Magneto callously walks away from her without a second thought after she is hit with the cure and becomes human, and she is visibly hurt by this.

The Jennifer Lawrence version of the character rewrote the book on Mystique by giving her a personal back story with both Magneto and Charles that was not evident at all in the Singer/Ratner movies.

E.g. Lawrence's character would never have done things like sabotaged Cerebro to hurt Charles and put him in a coma.

When is this said? Genuine question. You no doubt have watched this film more than me.

In the sewer fight scene.

There is misdirection about Bane being the child in the pit. Batman falls for it, the audience is supposed to as well. Not sure anyone did but I'm sure the intention wasn't for the audience to think the protagonist was being dumb.

The 'League of Shadows' for all intents and purposes is back and Bane is the band's frontman... until Talia reveals herself of course.

No, the audience was supposed to think Bruce heard a skewed version of the story. Bane was never the child in the pit, just like he was never excommunicated for being too extreme.

Bane presents himself as the LOS, not him and his mercenaries, just him. Talia never calls herself it. So nothing was misdirected or negated.

Context is important. Ock and Harry's roles are clearly defined. TDKR is deliberately misleading.

Except it isn't. Your basis for this was Talia calls the shots as soon as she is revealed. She tells Bane to do one little thing, which he doesn't even do. Exact same scenario with Ock and Harry. Just because one villain tells the other to do something doesn't mean they are calling the shots. If that was the case then just about every villain team up is a boss/lackey scenario.

I'm pointing to that line as it demonstrates the only time Talia and Bane are onscreen together as villains. What happens is what happens. Give me a compelling argument for the opposite.

Another strawman. By the time Talia is revealed they have like 9 minutes to live. What happens is Talia reveals her backstory, calls Bane her friend, and tells him she wants Batman alive to die with the rest of Gotham. That one line does not in any way dictate she has been calling the shots or masterminded everything.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

If you think about it as well, there is no way in hell Talia would have been able to complete her mission or even do half the things she did achieve in the movie without Bane's involvement. Bane was feared and that's why the genuine lackey's obeyed him, they were terrified of falling foul of Bane as they were terrified of him, same with Catwoman, same with Daggart, or anyone else they enlisted to help. Bane was also needed to draw out Batman and break him so he could suffer the torture of watching his city burn to ashes. Without Bane Talia wouldn't have gotten anywhere close to succeeding g in the majority of what she set out to.

Lackey's aren't usually that important to a plan succeeding. Bane is essential