The End of the World

[primemover]

Evolution alone is a dead-end.
Mankind, domesticated plants, and domesticated animals all are products of "intelligent intervention". All come from "building blocks" which obviously could not come from "nothing". The only thing which works for me is: first, there was creation of the basic building blocks; then, there is evidence of evolution; but, then, there are "sudden" changes which occurred inconsistently with nature since nature tends to "reject" such changes. Those changes are in the areas of speech, intelligence, and manual dexterity for humans and in the areas of "helpful to mankind" domestication of plants and animals.
No other explanation approaches the harmony, corroborative ancient textual explanations, nor corroborative modern understanding of facts about DNA, space surrounding us, and a whole host of other topics.

Uhm, while speech might be special to mankind, vocal interactions, intelligence and manual dexterity are not the sole domain of man, and was certainly not a result of the touching of some monolith/god/alien . . it was the result of billions of years of hard earned evolution.

 

[The Spectre]

Uhm, while speech might be special to mankind, vocal interactions, intelligence and manual dexterity are not the sole domain of man, and was certainly not a result of the touching of some monolith/god/alien . . it was the result of billions of years of hard earned evolution.

In all of the things you listed above, humans are by far the most advanced in every category. Yet we are not the oldest species. Perhaps we had a mentors?

An example:

Human trained/bred dogs are far more intelligent than wild dogs.

 

[Carcharodon]

In all of the things you listed above, humans are by far the most advanced in every category. Yet we are not the oldest species. Perhaps we had a mentors?

An example:

Human trained/bred dogs are far more intelligent than wild dogs.

"Intelligent," how? They can do tricks? ****adoodledoo. I doubt they could survive in the wild.

Why would the oldest (read: most primitive ancestral form) species be the most advanced in those listed categories? That makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Carcharodon]

That's economy, as big brains like ours are very energy hungry(they take up like 20% of the oxygen intake), something has to go, so out goes those energy hogging muscles

Oh, trade-offs.

 

[Carcharodon]

Evolution alone is a dead-end.
Mankind, domesticated plants, and domesticated animals all are products of "intelligent intervention". All come from "building blocks" which obviously could not come from "nothing". The only thing which works for me is: first, there was creation of the basic building blocks; then, there is evidence of evolution; but, then, there are "sudden" changes which occurred inconsistently with nature since nature tends to "reject" such changes. Those changes are in the areas of speech, intelligence, and manual dexterity for humans and in the areas of "helpful to mankind" domestication of plants and animals.
No other explanation approaches the harmony, corroborative ancient textual explanations, nor corroborative modern understanding of facts about DNA, space surrounding us, and a whole host of other topics.

Are you familiar with the Miller Experiment?

 

[primemover]

In all of the things you listed above, humans are by far the most advanced in every category. Yet we are not the oldest species. Perhaps we had a mentors?

So by this line of reasoning, who mentored the mentors? Who mentored those mentors? This is what you call an infinite regress and will get you nowhere. There are billions of species on the planet of varying degrees of intellect and age, are you saying every one of those creatures was mentored to be of that intellect? Where the dolphins mentored? Where the bonobos or chimps mentored?

Human trained/bred dogs are far more intelligent than wild dogs.

No they aren't, they're just more trainable is and manipulated, which is a sure sign of being less intelligent. They're like steer, domesticated to be placated, a tool for man. Wolves have much larger brains and show greater skills related to brain activity.

 

[Carcharodon]

This is a misnomer, there really isn't any pinnacle, any valleys or any real dead ends, there just is what there is. Evolution doesn't have any aims, any direction or any will, every organism on this planet is like it is for the very best of reasons, it survives well enough to make more of itself.

If humans are anything, we are definitely one of the most versatile and dominant large form of life out there, and have by far the biggest impact on everything, but any progress has stagnated due to us being so dominant, even the weak are replicating!

I know there is no, "pinnacle." Evolution isn't goal-oriented. My point with the dead-end argument, however, is that there really isn't anywhere for us to go as we are today. That's probably pretty short-sighted, but I'm at a loss as to what selective pressures there are anymore to affect us that we can't overcome with some form of technology or other artificial means.

It's almost as though the only way for us to change or diverge by way of lineages is by our own means (artificial selection).

While not maybe physically weaker, something would have to give to gain further brain mass and function, and most likely it would be physical prowess, as more intellect would result in better ways and tools in manipulating our environment, negating brute force as a factor.

Yeah. Is there any indication that we're gaining in brain mass and function, though? For some reason I doubt that some instance of punctuated equilibrium will cause a sudden selection for it, so I'm not sure what would be (or has been) a driving factor.

 

[primemover]

I know there is no, "pinnacle." Evolution isn't goal-oriented. My point with the dead-end argument, however, is that there really isn't anywhere for us to go as we are today. That's probably pretty short-sighted, but I'm at a loss as to what selective pressures there are anymore to affect us that we can't overcome with some form of technology or other artificial means.

Our most likely chance for change is at our own hands, but that isn't evolution, otherwise it'd take an ice age, holocaust or plague to kill off most of us, section those survivors off, and let selection then do it's thing.

It's an interesting thought experiment to do so, being sent underground with only the shirt on our backs due to a global catastrophe for many, many generations would definitely result in an altered human, but it really would take many, many generations.

Yeah. Is there any indication that we're gaining in brain mass and function, though? For some reason I doubt that some instance of punctuated equilibrium will cause a sudden selection for it, so I'm not sure what would be (or has been) a driving factor.

No selection at this time, bigger brained people don't replicate more than anybody else, so the genome remains relatively unchanged(though I imagine it has changed to some phenotypically insignificant amount).

 

[TBadora]

edit

 

[primemover]

You can't compare humans to other animals. No other animal on the planet has created AI, cured numerous diseases, mapped the cosmos etc... Human are leaps and bounds more intelligent than any animals, including dolphins and chimps (unless they are hiding it from us). I am arguing that there must be a reason why, since we haven't been around the longest, have managed to do so much in so little time. I suggested that there may be an external factor which enabled us to go further than we would have normally gone. Perhaps our mentors have been around much longer than we have.

I recommend you check out Unweaving the Rainbow by Richard Dawkins, there is a chapter late in the book called The Balloon of the Mind that explains how and why intelligence came so fast(and by fast I mean millions of years). It's a case of positive feedback loop running rampant, the brain grows larger enabling it to do more, software advances to use that extra processor power, the brain grows again enabling it to do more, then again the software advances to suit.

They feed into each other into what we have today, the only reason why we don't have larger brains and intellect is brains are extremely costly to maintain, so economy of the bodies resources stalled it, basically found some equilibrium to suit the environment.

There really isn't a need for some magical force granting us smarts, scientists have done much research on the subject.

I also recommend Steven Pinkers book, How the Mind Works, he goes into more of the software element, it's fascinating stuff.

 

[TBadora]

It's an interesting thought experiment to do so, being sent underground with only the shirt on our backs due to a global catastrophe for many, many generations would definitely result in an altered human, but it really would take many, many generations.

Ever seen H.G. Well's The Time Machiene?

 

[primemover]

Ever seen H.G. Well's The Time Machiene?

Yeah, many authors have offered up some great ideas.

 

[TBadora]

I recommend you check out Unweaving the Rainbow by Richard Dawkins, there is a chapter late in the book called The Balloon of the Mind that explains how and why intelligence came so fast(and by fast I mean millions of years). It's a case of positive feedback loop running rampant, the brain grows larger enabling it to do more, software advances to use that extra processor power, the brain grows again enabling it to do more, then again the software advances to suit.

They feed into each other into what we have today, the only reason why we don't have larger brains and intellect is brains are extremely costly to maintain, so economy of the bodies resources stalled it, basically found some equilibrium to suit the environment.

There really isn't a need for some magical force granting us smarts, scientists have done much research on the subject.

I also recommend Steven Pinkers book, How the Mind Works, he goes into more of the software element, it's fascinating stuff.

Thank you for the recommended books. They sound interesting. I will look into them.

 

[TBadora]

There really isn't a need for some magical force granting us smarts, scientists have done much research on the subject.

What if I told you that there is evidence that we have been mentored by non-humans in the past? (not hypothetically, but in reality). Would you be interested in looking into the possibility?

 

[primemover]

What if I told you that there is evidence that we have been mentored by non-humans in the past? (not hypothetically, but in reality). Would you be interested in looking into the possibility?

Fire away.

 

[primemover]

Thank you for the recommended books. They sound interesting. I will look into them.

I appreciate this positive reaction to my post, evolutionary biology, especially concerning the brain, is incredibly satisfying to read.

Be warned, Unweaving the Rainbow is mainly about looking at things with a skeptical mind and using science and reason to see happenstance and pure coincidences in things most people see reason or will in, or to put more precisely, 'want' to see reason or will in.

 

[nomad33]

Just because you have a nice quote that backs up your efforts, doesn't mean what you say automatically has merit. Throughout history there have been many more people that have been wrong than people that have been right.

Thank you for reinforcing my point...
Most of those who've been right have been persecuted and prosecuted by those who have been wrong. I choose to follow those who've been right in search of evidence and truth rather than to continue being misdirected by those who don't have a clue...even though such action automatically sets me at odds with doubters, deniers, and naysayers.
You are correct that "nice quotes" don't necessarily have merit. However, the substantive research, redundant corroboration, sound logic, and years of trial and error do have merit. What I say is based upon that solid foundation even though I've not published books or movies (yet).

 

[primemover]

Thank you for reinforcing my point...
Most of those who've been right have been persecuted and prosecuted by those who have been wrong. I choose to follow those who've been right in search of evidence and truth rather than to continue being misdirected by those who don't have a clue...even though such action automatically sets me at odds with doubters, deniers, and naysayers.
You are correct that "nice quotes" don't necessarily have merit. However, the substantive research, redundant corroboration, sound logic, and years of trial and error do have merit. What I say is based upon that solid foundation even though I've not published books or movies (yet).

Well then, you say you are right and not wrong, I guess that makes you right, you have an awesome future ahead of you obviously, get published man, you will change the world! I await your foundation!

 

[Carcharodon]

Well then, you say you are right and not wrong, I guess that makes you right, you have an awesome future ahead of you obviously, get published man, you will change the world! I await your foundation!

LoL.

 

[Obi-Ron]

I didn't even know TheSumOfGod had a padawan.

 

[nomad33]

Well then, you say you are right and not wrong, I guess that makes you right, you have an awesome future ahead of you obviously, get published man, you will change the world! I await your foundation!

LoL.

Sarcasm and laughing hyena prattle isn't what it's about.
I said I seek what is right, and I admire those who have blazed a path before us. Claiming to be right wouldn't automatically make me right, but neither does ridicule make others right. Many times I've attempted to share some thoughts with those who gather in forums, but it always ends the same way...pearls before swine.
Ok. Ignorance is bliss, and mocking laughter echoes loudly in hollow minds. I prefer to continue learning, not wasting time and bandwidth. Outta here.

 

[Enriquespy]

Sarcasm and laughing hyena prattle isn't what it's about.
I said I seek what is right, and I admire those who have blazed a path before us. Claiming to be right wouldn't automatically make me right, but neither does ridicule make others right. Many times I've attempted to share some thoughts with those who gather in forums, but it always ends the same way...pearls before swine.
Ok. Ignorance is bliss, and mocking laughter echoes loudly in hollow minds. I prefer to continue learning, not wasting time and bandwidth. Outta here.

OMG you are too great for our forum, How we will keep on without you!!!!! LOL!!!!


By the way... weren't we talking about the end of the world?

 

[The Spectre]

Sarcasm and laughing hyena prattle isn't what it's about.
I said I seek what is right, and I admire those who have blazed a path before us. Claiming to be right wouldn't automatically make me right, but neither does ridicule make others right. Many times I've attempted to share some thoughts with those who gather in forums, but it always ends the same way...pearls before swine.
Ok. Ignorance is bliss, and mocking laughter echoes loudly in hollow minds. I prefer to continue learning, not wasting time and bandwidth. Outta here.

And yet another bright candle burns out an we are left with darkness

 

[primemover]

And yet another bright candle burns out an we are left with darkness

Pay your electricity bill once in a while.

 

[Mike_D202]

So...about this end-of-the-world thing.

Do any of you actually own any fall-out shelters?