The Fear Of The Wrestling Thread Is Far Greater Than The Wrestling Thread Itself - Part 151

[sweetre15]

Shinsuke Nakamura vs Hiroshi Tanahashi at NJPW: New Beginning in Hiroshima:

 

[Van Petrol]

 

[sweetre15]

 

[TheNextNolan22]

Shinsuke Nakamura vs Hiroshi Tanahashi at NJPW: New Beginning in Hiroshima:

NJPWs John Cena.

 

[sweetre15]

NJPWs John Cena.

And Dont forget to add Pro Wrestling's very own Son Goku..I mean seriously, he's a couple hope spots away from this happening lol:

Somone needs to make a gif of Tanahashi going Super Saiyan

 

[OnTheAir]

I thought Shelton was pretty good in the ring.

I'm a big Shelton fan...I will always maintain that he should have had the MVP gimmick.

That's an aspect of the business I've been noticing when looking at older NWA stuff from the 80s. It felt like more like an actual sport even with all of the pageantry.

That's what attracted me to the NWA as a kid in the mid-80s. The presentation was very different from what the WWF was offering at the time.

 

[TheNextNolan22]

So it's Shelton Benjamin vs Shibata in the quarter finals of the New Japan Cub. Is it safe to say Benjamin is D.O.A.?

 

[The Sage]

So I see you guys are discussing Puro...

I was on wrestlingforum.com where a similar topic came up about Puro vs. WWE styles, and I thought there was an excellent response by another poster named KO Bossy. It's a good read for those who may not be as familiar with the contrast in styles, but t's pretty lengthy so I've included it in spoiler tags below so there's not a wall of unwanted text for those who aren't interested. And full disclosure, I don't agree with all of his views, especially since I enjoy the WWE product a lot more than he does apparently.

Spoiler

As a Puro watcher, let me elaborate, from my point of view.

When you see and really get into Puro, you'll understand exactly why stuff like WWE today is so god awfully bad.

First off, the storytelling in Puro is very layered. On the surface, you see Tanahashi working on Okada's arm because that's the limb he's targeting for the match. But below that, you know its because Okada needs that arm to hit the Rainmaker, and if he can't use it, he's at a big disadvantage. Its practical, but logical. And they go all out to target that weakness or specific area, which makes complete sense. If a guy has an injured leg, why wouldn't you exploit it as much and believably as you could? Quite honestly, I RARELY see that in WWE. It so often just feels like two guys just hitting moves back and forth with no real rhyme or reason. I know that people loved Bray vs Bryan at the Rumble but I couldn't really get into it overall for this reason. Bray would have the advantage, then Bryan would come back, then repeat until Bray wins. In good Puro, it makes a million times more sense what they're doing. And of course, the guys actually SELL what's happened to them. When Okada hit the Rainmaker, his arm was in so much pain that he couldn't go for the pin right away, allowing Tanahashi time to recuperate and be able to kick out of it when Okada finally did try for a pin half a minute later. That makes total sense. If your leg hurts, limp. It makes it more real. This is aside from the fact that the Japanese are renowned for working stiffly, which makes it all seem infinitely more believable.

Second, the commentary. I know people feel they need commentary, but I love the Japanese commentary without understanding 99% of it. When Shinpei Nogami is going crazy screaming BOMA YE or LARIATOH, it feels like what's going on is a big deal because he makes it a big deal. He sounds genuinely excited by what's going on. By that alone, I get more excited and into the match. Contrast that to Michael Cole and his disgusting, disingenuous OH MY. I feel ill even comparing the two.

Third, the in ring. Puro doesn't put idiotic restrictions on a guy's move set. For some reason in WWE they do, which I hate. There's also the fact that once in a WHILE someone will kick out of a finisher, as opposed to Cena/Rock where nobody expects the match to end unless Cena kicks out of 3 Rock Bottoms and a People's Elbow. I find it embarrassingly lazy when guys have to resort to finisher spamming and kick outs to build tension in a match.

Fourth, and this is an extension of #1, is the callbacks. Puro is famous for linking long standing feuds together with nods back to previous matches. Its a really nice touch to link everything together. OK, Kawada is murdering Kobashi's leg because previously, Kobashi did that to Kawada's leg, so Kawada is getting his revenge. Simple, yet it shows that they care about tying up that little part of the story. It makes them seem so much more competent as in ring and overall storytellers. I can count maybe a couple times when WWE has done something like that and it makes their stories feel so much more scripted.

These little things are really what bother me about WWE. Let's look back at one of Puro's most famous matches-Kobashi/Misawa vs Kawada/Taue on June 9th, 1995. GOAT tag match, bar none. At the time, Misawa and Kawada were in the middle of a really bitter feud that had been going on for a while. So to keep them apart, Taue and Kobashi start the match for their teams. Then Kawada tags in. He and Kobashi exchange blows and Kobashi reverses an Irish Whip into the ropes. Kawada responds by running at Misawa and kicking him in the face and knocking him off the apron. Why is this significant? It was a cheap shot, and logically, you'd expect something like that from Kawada (a heel) against beloved babyface Misawa. Not only is it heel tactics, but these two were in a major feud. Its natural for them to try and get at each other to fight. So what happens? Misawa gets back on the apron, shakes the cobwebs loose and tells Kobashi to tag him in. The audience goes OOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHH at the prospect of these two enemies just stepping into the ring with each other.

Now, contrast such an interaction with the Rock/Cena feud. WM28 match. This feud has been brewing for a year plus at this point. What's the first thing these two mortal enemies do? Lock up. What the hell sense does that make? That's how any other Superstars match starts. Its also not how mortal enemies behave. I was expecting something more like Shibata/Ishii that Pyro mentioned where they come out of the corners and start swinging for the fences. Two guys who hate each other would logically want to beat the other to a pulp, so they should act like it. Locking up doesn't say blood feud, it says "just another wrestling match." If I'm fighting a guy I despite and who has talked **** about me for over a year, I'm not going to lock up with him. I'm going to try and break his face at first chance. It makes the feud feel real, like Misawa/Kawada. That felt intensely personal because the first chance they got, they were trying to beat the crap out of one another, like real enemies would. Rock/Cena felt scripted to the gills. That's just an example of what I mean.

There's also the slap and chop fights that a lot of people don't really get. This is absolutely the best explanation for it I've ever seen (credit goes to Woolcock)

Quote:
Someone like Kawada will do a strike exchange early but either decisively win or lose the exchange to establish the hierarchy, e.g if Kawada is the veteran he might obliterate the younger opponent with a kick to establish the kid can't match him strike for strike. Then Kawada will progressively give more to the opponent, and by the end you'll see the youngster flooring Kawada and you can believeably see Kawada losing because he's gradually relinquished control and the tone of the match has shifted. Nowadays you get repeated elbow, forearm and slap exchanges but very few guys (bar Ishii) use them to communicate a theme: i.e one wrestler proves dominant initially. Instead guys just seem to hit each other and then move onto the next sequence and it just irritates me and takes me out of a match.

Consequently back in the 90s you'd have strikes exchanged but the best wrestlers utilised them in a way that communicated a story that added to the match and built to a moment later in the match where one wrestler would finally win an exchange. They're like a match within the match. Meta, if you will. Its one of those tools that helps convey the story. Its not that WWE needs to utilize this, but for some reason they rebel against certain techniques in ring because "that's not how you properly work." Honestly, I don't even think casual fans would understand the point of it.

Essentially, it boils down to the fact that Puro makes so much more sense to me, as a wrestling fan. What they do, I look at and say to myself "that is completely logical, I can see that actually happening and in the context of the story, I understand why they did that perfectly." In WWE, I rarely say that. Its just guys hitting the moves that the WWE has allotted them and once in a blue moon does it ever mean something, or is it used to convey an overall greater meaning. What happens in ring has to mean something and help tell the story, and I find the WWE in ring stories not only formulaic, but boring. Aside from the truly great matches like Austin/Bret, they mean little to me anymore. Its just WWE Generic Story #3 told between (Insert Wrestlers X and Y).

I have several problems with what the guy said above:

- First the "exploiting the injury" comment. That happens in WWE. Think back to Bryan vs Sheamus, 2 out of 3 falls. Bryan injures Sheamus' arm and focuses on it throughout the match, and Sheamus sold it throughout the match. And in the last month, wasn't Bryan's arm injury attacked for weeks?

- Second, the guy is using Cena/Rock in his example, which is a very poor example for so many reasons. That feud was all smoke and mirrors and not a true rivalry. The reason it felt scripted is because it was. All of the Rock's single matches in his return were rehearsed apparently.

If he wanted to use a good example, he should've used CM Punk/John Cena, the best rivalry of the last few years. Their first big epic match was called in the ring, according to CM Punk. They weren't hated enemies, but competitive rivals who were out to prove who was better. And in that context, a lock-up made sense. That rivalry built on every match, with both guys knowing each other well and finding way to counter each other's offense. Look at their NOC match: After hitting the G2S twice with unsuccessful results, CM Punk resorted to the Rock Bottom, the move that beat Cena at Wrestlemania 28. And in their last match, the two knew each other so well they resorted to new moves to throw each other off. Cena pulled out the sit-out powerbomb; CM Punk pulled out a piledriver; and the Cena used a hurricanrana before hitting a second Attitude Adjustment.

- Also, didn't Bray target Bryan's head in the match quite a bit? Didn't the commentary mentioned the rumors of Bryan having a concussion? It made sense to me, especially when you look at how Bray beat him--a Sister Abigail into the barricade. Bryan is thrown for a loop and can't comeback, and a second one in the ring for the win.

- What idiotic restrictions on movesets is he referring to? The removal of certain high impact moves, particularly to the head? If that's it, then I definitely can't agree since the company is looking out for their talents' well-being in doing that.

- So puro doesn't have multiple finisher kickouts? I thought that originated in Japan before coming to the States?

 

[SuperBatman]

.

I actually Put a order in for this shirt as well as the Undertaker "No Grave can Hold my soul" Shirt

 

[sweetre15]

I have several problems with what the guy said above:

- First the "exploiting the injury" comment. That happens in WWE. Think back to Bryan vs Sheamus, 2 out of 3 falls. Bryan injures Sheamus' arm and focuses on it throughout the match, and Sheamus sold it throughout the match. And in the last month, wasn't Bryan's arm injury attacked for weeks?

- Second, the guy is using Cena/Rock in his example, which is a very poor example for so many reasons. That feud was all smoke and mirrors and not a true rivalry. The reason it felt scripted is because it was. All of the Rock's single matches in his return were rehearsed apparently.

If he wanted to use a good example, he should've used CM Punk/John Cena, the best rivalry of the last few years. Their first big epic match was called in the ring, according to CM Punk. They weren't hated enemies, but competitive rivals who were out to prove who was better. And in that context, a lock-up made sense. That rivalry built on every match, with both guys knowing each other well and finding way to counter each other's offense. Look at their NOC match: After hitting the G2S twice with unsuccessful results, CM Punk resorted to the Rock Bottom, the move that beat Cena at Wrestlemania 28. And in their match, the two knew each other so well they resorted to new moves to throw each other off. Cena pulled out the sit-out powerbomb; CM Punk pulled out a piledriver; and the Cena used a hurricanrana before hitting a second Attitude Adjustment.

- Also, didn't Bray target Bryan's head in the match quite a bit? Didn't the commentary mentioned the rumors of Bryan having a concussion? It made sense to me, especially when you look at how Bray beat him--a Sister Abigail into the barricade. Bryan is thrown for a loop and can't comeback, and a second one in the ring for the win.

- What idiotic restrictions on movesets is he referring to? The removal of certain high impact moves, particularly to the head? If that's it, then I definitely can't agree since the company is looking out for their talents' well-being in doing that.

- So puro doesn't have multiple finisher kickouts? I thought that originated in Japan before coming to the States?

All pretty much solid points, I'm both an American wrestling fan AND a Puro fan but I sometimes think that the more hardcore on both sides tend to look through a bit of a rose-tinted glass when discrediting the others "psychology".

WWE's wrestlers have constantly used limb targeting to tell a story in the ring....just as some recent examples

- Bryan vs Orton on Raw leading up to Elimination Chamber

- Damien Sandow vs John Cena the night after Hell In A Cell

- Alberto Del Rio vs Dolph Ziggler at WWE Payback

- Bray Wyatt vs Daniel Bryan with the concussion angle being put over

- Daniel Bryan's two recent singles matches with Kane where both guys were picking each other apart.

Granted they dont always just flat out assault those limbs beyond repair but they definitely maintain continuity during the match by targeting and working a limb.

 

[TheNextNolan22]

 

[The Sage]

All pretty much solid points, I'm both an American wrestling fan AND a Puro fan but I sometimes think that the more hardcore on both sides tend to look through a bit of a rose-tinted glass when discrediting the others "psychology".

WWE's wrestlers have constantly used limb targeting to tell a story in the ring....just as some recent examples

- Bryan vs Orton on Raw leading up to Elimination Chamber

- Damien Sandow vs John Cena the night after Hell In A Cell

- Alberto Del Rio vs Dolph Ziggler at WWE Payback

- Bray Wyatt vs Daniel Bryan with the concussion angle being put over

- Daniel Bryan's two recent singles matches with Kane where both guys were picking each other apart.

Granted they dont always just flat out assault those limbs beyond repair but they definitely maintain continuity during the match by targeting and working a limb.

Another great example is Brock Lesnar vs CM Punk. I love that match, and one of the reasons is the psychology. CM Punk didn't use his rolling neckbreaker, bulldog in the corner, or calf-kicks. Instead, he mainly used strikes. Pretty much his standard offense, and it made sense because he wasn't trying to win a wrestling match--he was trying survive and bring down a monster.

On top of all that, everything looked brutal and felt real. That match had callbacks, if you knew them. Brock bealing Punk around like he did a few weeks earlier; Punk jumping off the announce table and somewhere else with a flying attack to bring Brock down, as he did weeks earlier; Brock resorting to the Three Amigos, the signature move of Eddie Guerrero, the man that ended Brock's last title reign; CM Punk resorting to a triangle choke, which is almost a version of the Hell's Gate, which is one of the signatures of the Undertaker, who Punk lost to earlier that year. And Punk letting Heyman's distractions cost him is something that was shown repeatedly.

Yeah, I love that match.

 

[TheNextNolan22]

Still the smarkiest sign I've seen in a while.

My girlfriend is making a sign in tribute of this sign for NOLA.

 

[sweetre15]

Minoru Suzuki vs Okada gifs:

 

[NDX]

These are the gifs I like seeing.

][/B]
I really hope those first two paragraphs are kayfabe.

I was hoping the same thing.

Knew it.

Never once was I fully convinced that the @PhilBrooksMMA account was him. And if it was, I was never fully convinced that it wasn't a work.

Nice to have confirmation though.

Unless he's lying.........

Be hilarious if he announces his new twitter tonight on TTD as @PhilBrooksMMA.

I found THIS on NoDQ.com and well....I'm shocked to say the least:

Somone mind telling me when this took place? Seeing The Viper with.........him.....is just

He beat Cena to it.

What you don't see is him RKOing Barney and literally punting his head off.

 

[TX85]

Where do you all get or make wrestling gifs?,Only site I know of where you can do that and get codes to share if gifsoup and they watermark the gifs and so it looks kinda cheap

 

[SuperBatman]

How is this going to work?

Knowing WWE they will probably have Some guy come out in a Scooby Doo Costume who knows.

 

[The Sage]

Still the smarkiest sign I've seen in a while.

My girlfriend is making a sign in tribute of this sign for NOLA.

Forget Cena. Do Okada > HHH.

 

[TheNextNolan22]

 

[SpideyFan866]

They just showed the preview for Talking Dead.

and Punk as announced as "Phil Brooks, who you might know as CM Punk"

 

[Whiskey Tango]

So I stumbled across this article from one year ago claiming that Trips abandoned scripts in favor of more improv from the performers. Is that accurate and if so would y'all say that the quality of the shows have improved since then?

 

[TheNextNolan22]

 

[Slushy]

Punk will probably ignore anything wwe related to avoid any legal action.

 

[TheNextNolan22]

He looks like he walked out of a place he absolutely hated and refined himself.

 

[The Sage]

So I stumbled across this article from one year ago claiming that Trips abandoned scripts in favor of more improv from the performers. Is that accurate and if so would y'all say that the quality of the shows have improved since then?

As the article said, Triple H is having talents in development do their own promos. It's not the same on the main shows. Scripts are still used and there are promos which come across as noticeably scripted. However, I have seen some changes with certain individuals' promos such as Dolph Ziggler. Bray Wyatt writes his own promos and gets them approved.