The General Comic Discussion Thread - Part 1

Discussion in 'DC Comics' started by Thread Manager, Dec 11, 2017.

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  1. Primal Slayer Let the Siren scream

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    Latest issue of Batman/Catwoman was great, it continues to make me yearn for a Batman or Catwoman tv show on HBO (max).

    Im already in love with this version of Helena, though her new costume needs some tinkering. Nice to do something different with Dick by making him Comminsonor. Now something he and Barbara share in common.
     
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  2. CrimsonMist Registered

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    If there's a truly great Batman/Riddler comic out there, I've never read it.

    I woukd recommend Tom King's "The War of Jokes and Riddles" from early in his Batman run for a unique take on both the Riddler and The Joker as they wage war on each other for needing Batman to fullfill their own individual and conflicting deadly gimmicks. There's also Neil Gaiman's "When Is a Door?" from the 1989 Secret Origins special and can be found in the Whayever Happened to the Caped Crusader book. It serves kind of as a commentary on the ever-changing tones of Batman as a character.

    Both are very good but no great. Worth mentioning is Matt Wagner's short OGN "The Riddle Factory, which I've never read actually. Its on my list. It being a Matt Wagner book guarantees that it's atleast fun though.

    My favorite Riddler story, and a great one at that, is actually The Question #26: "Riddles", wherein The Riddler, recently released from prison, gets involved with a crazy woman he meets on the bus ride into Hub City and decides to hijack it. They threaten to shoot anyone who cant correctly answer any of the Riddler's riddles. Until they encounter The Question, who also happens to be on the bus. Denny O'Neil and Bill Wray tell a very amusingly philosophical story in a chapter from the greatness that is O'Neil's Question run.


    Totally buying these. The artwork for both are great. A little iffy on Venditti but these project seems different enough that he may be able to have a a lot of fun with it. I'm all in in Batman'89 though. All. In.

    I'm trying my hardest to like Bat/Cat but the story just isn't working for me. I know theres still 9 more issues and a special coming, but it's not as engaging as the reat of King's Batman and lacks the experimental craftmenship of his other books. I plan to finish it, but at the present, I'm not feeling it. In a total shock though, Rorschach is a GREAT book and NO ONE is talking about it.
     
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  3. geetard Rebirth

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    I'm pulling the Bat/Cat issues but waiting for all issues to be released to binge read them all. I think I should have been trade waiting like I'm doing for Rorschach and Strange Adventures.
     
  4. The Shape In the shadows

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    King's Rorshach is excellent. I'm also really enjoying Bat/Cat. It's better and more unique rhag anything going on in the main Bat books pre-Future State.

    As for Future State, really digging Dark Detective most of all, I think.
     
  5. Babillygunn New Age Outlaw

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    I am with you on the Riddler. But I would say that The War of Jokes and Riddles is by far my least favorite King story. Ever. It actually makes me quite angry and I have to head cannon that it never happened.

    I do like Hush, to extent that can be considered a Riddler story. Ironically I don’t like Scott Snyder for the most part, but I did like how he wrote Riddler in Zero Year. Had that story not have been so overblown it would’ve been up there with Court of Owls and Black Mirror as far as good Snyder stories. I’m also not a fan in general of Batman Earth One, but I did really like the Riddler in volume 2 of that as well. I’d say that might’ve been the best Batman/Riddler story.
     
  6. Babillygunn New Age Outlaw

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    Future State: Nightwing was excellent. A real love letter to his fans and gave us the most awesome version of the character since Battle for the Cowl.
     
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  7. Milk Tray Guy 70s Man of Action

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    Good to hear! :up: I'm looking forward to reading Future State.
     
  8. CrimsonMist Registered

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    Regarding the War of Jokes and Riddles, I'll concede that I dont quite like how King handles Batman as character in that story. But I was fine with the story otherwise and the treatment of the Riddler was fairly interesting and worth reading.
     
  9. Babillygunn New Age Outlaw

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    I was disgusted at how
    Batman totally fails Kite-Man’s son, then shows absolutely no regard for Kite-Man afterwards. That death lacked the necessary gravity that I would have expected it to have with Batman. He was sloppy and let an innocent child die on his watch. But it hardly seems to register to him.

    or at least that’s how I see it.
     
  10. Mani-Man I just found out about this (he/him)

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    Oh man, that this project really continues after so many years where they wanted to do something with it...loving it.
    Looking good and im looking forward to this so much.

    Yeah, war of jokes and riddles is the weakest of Kings arcs...it promised much but did so little with the basics.

    Cant remember a more recent strong riddler story, Zero Year was just too much to really appreciate it.

    Yup, really enjoyed it.

    Immortal Wonder Woman continues to really please me visual and storywise.
    Nightwing super cool, A+ for me on that.
    Shazam also a pretty cool story, liking it.
    Worlds of War is a neat idea and i really wanna know how this "ends".
    The Next Batman ended a bit breathless, not as much substance as i expected it to have when it started.

    Overall, this event so far is pretty good...opposite of what i thought i would feel.
     
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  11. Doctor Jones Super Moderator

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    Thanks for the other recommendations. I appreciate the rec, but the War of Jokes and Riddles didn't interest me very much. At that point, I was so goddamn sick of the event stories in Batman. Snyder's Batman run was just a big mixed bag and exhausting. Can't the man write a damned simple story? And I'm starting to get tired of Joker showing up all the time. With him, the less the better as he's more threatening when he shows up once and a while.

    Plus, I'm coming to realize the reason why Riddler is lacking in stories is because his similarities to the Joker. Their names are wacky nouns and carry those out, both wear loud, colorful costumes and are insane and intelligent, though Riddler is the genius, so I feel like Joker just takes that up usually. Plus, I don't think Riddler got much out of the Silver Age. Not that Silver Age Riddler is a bad thing, I love Frank Gorshin Riddler, but notice how he was more Joker like on that show than the Joker was. He's considered the best villain on that show for a reason. It seems people have just taken him for granted all these years and haven't done much else to go further with it.

    I think writers need to do a better job of differentiating the two and focus on making Riddler a uniqe character. If you do that but keep the Riddles aspect, honestly, Riddler could be Batman's greatest foe, if not top three for sure. The Earth One version is probably the best version I've seen. Making him an actual serial killer is a good approach and I'm glad to see Reeves going somewhere with it too. If it's done right, it could be the best interpretation of the character. I wouldn't be surprised if serial killer Riddler becomes the norm in comics too.
     
    #1686 Doctor Jones, Feb 19, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021
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  12. Babillygunn New Age Outlaw

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    I completely agree with you on Snyder. I have found myself saying your exact same statement. Why can’t he write a simple story? Even Court of Owls started great and I consider it a very good story, but it was bloated and limped to the finish.

    Ironically, Snyder’s best Batman story is Black Mirror. If you haven’t read that, I would highly recommend it. It’s a Dick Grayson as Batman story. It’s a very good, albeit a bit unnerving, detective story.
     
  13. CrimsonMist Registered

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    I stopped reading Snyder's overwrought Batman run after the first issue of Death of the Family, but picked it up again for Zero Year which wound up being a thorough mistake.

    All of the excitement built up by Court of Owls went out the window with City of Owls...because Batman's piecemeal takedown of the Court doesn't even happen in his own book. It happens in the tie-in books for Night of the Owls, and then City of Owls ends with such a painfully cliche whimper.

    Black Mirror is Snyder's best Batman story precisely because it's the opposite of what he did in Batman. Reading that story month to month was so exciting. Reading the collected edition was an even better experience. He's never been able to match it.

    That said, I never considered The War of Jokes & Riddles to be an event book. King's run was largely self-contained. One of his strong points as a writer for me is that he usually takes what should be MASSIVE moments and subverts it to something smaller and intimate, which is basically what The War of Jokes and Riddles was. It wasn't a loud, stupid event book. Not to mention, The Joker shows up in King's Batman run all of like 4 times as a functioning character: The War of Jokes & Riddles (Batman 25-32), DC Nation #0 one-shot, The Best Man (48-49) and All the Way Down (67).

    I think this is where we disagree. I think the difficulty of writing the Riddler is that he requires very smart writing and not many writers can deliver on that. I don't think the serial killer route is the one to take though, because then it just makes the Joker/Riddler comparisons all the more prominent. Plus, I think Batman having more villains who commit mass homicide ad nauseam just makes Batman look all the more ineffective and it highlights the bankruptcy of the writers who come up with this stuff (which is why I 1.am generally sick of the Joker and 2. liked what King did with him, or rather, didn't do with him).

    I think the best option for the Riddler is to bring back what Paul Dini did in his Detective Comics run from a few years ago. Make him an arrogant private detective: Batman's competition rather than his opposition. I never felt that the Riddler's main compulsion was to commit crimes than it was to simply outsmart Batman. I think this development would make for a more interesting dynamic, where the Riddler plays a more "I told you so!" role to Batman's stoic, subdued detective. It could make for a pretty interesting mini series as well, seeing the Riddler struggle with the decision to give up crime to go straight, but still wanting to spite Batman as they develop a begrudging respect for each other. He'd make for an interesting addition to the Bat-family, too. -
     
  14. Babillygunn New Age Outlaw

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    Jeph Loeb is easily my favorite writer of The Riddler. His smarmy and weasily version in Long Halloween and then his arrogant opportunist in Hush were very different takes but both were very entertaining and effective. Even if they weren’t main characters.
     
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  15. Milk Tray Guy 70s Man of Action

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    And don't forget the 'pervy' version in Catwoman: When in Rome! ;)
     
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  16. Snow Queen 4AF (she/her)

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    Love Black Mirror. Only one of his I really love, though Gates of Gotham and Court of Owls are solid. Then City of Owls hits and it just keeps getting worse. Funny enough, I'm moving again and have been going through comics I don't enjoy/won't read again to see if on the off chance I might be able to get a few dollars out of some collections on eBay, and Death of the Family and the half of Zero Year I managed to get through were two of those sets.
     
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  17. Babillygunn New Age Outlaw

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    I love Gates of Gotham! I forgot that was Snyder. For some reason I thought it was Dini. But then I remember Dini wrote Streets of Gotham. I’m thinking that Snyder is at his best writing Dick as Batman.
     
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  18. Mani-Man I just found out about this (he/him)

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    Oh yeah.
    Sometimes it feels like he doesnt trust his own story and writing, thats why he adds more and more stuff that in the end makes the story feel overly complicated and full.
    Everything needs to be bigger and bigger for him, to the point where towards the end that breaks the whole foundation of the story.

    Absolutly, it is so great...its actually the story that opened the door for me to maybe be able to accept one day a different batman than Bruce Wayne.
    Before i was even more close minded than i am right now towars the possibility that one day someone else but Bruce would wear the cowl.
    But this story has done a lot to slightly change that opinion.
    Definitly worth a read.

    As for the Riddler, yeah the man deserves better.
    But i feel like he is one hard to write character because of the fact his main thing are riddles etc.
    That is incredible hard to create and takes a lot of thought and care to build on.
    Its not some "simple" straightforward plot with him, you need to write on a different level when it comes to the Riddler.
    It would be a really cool thing to have a Riddler arc that has the reader sitting there an having to think and guess, look at the clues like batman himself.
    But pulling that off is incredible hard to do i think.
     
  19. Doctor Jones Super Moderator

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    Court of Owls's first six issues were great. When he gets out of the labyrinth and says he's coming back for them, great stuff! Then it went downhill with Lincoln March. What's more frustrating is the fact Snyder loves these event stories but never knows how to end them. Endgame was acceptable from what I remember though.

    Black Mirror is indeed the strongest of Snyder's. I even got him to sign my hardcover. Nice guy though. I did love the dynamic of Dick as Batman and Damian as Robin. I could have seen more of it. Plus if there's anyone who deserves the mantle most, it's Dick.

    That is indeed an aspect. As difficult as the riddles themselves are hard to write, they're not usually the point. They're usually a means to an end for something else the Riddler is doing. As for the serial killer aspect, you'd be right if only the Joker is portrayed as a serial killer, which I can't recall any right now but there probably is. But it's an easy remedy. Joker has always been more of a gangster or terrorist anyway, so just go more in that direction. The Dini idea is a valid direction to go in as well. I gotta find Detective #828 onward where that occurs.
     
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  20. gohei_ Infected by Pentapox

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    I really enjoyed the New 52 run of Batman, and Black Mirror has been on my radar for quite a while but I haven't gotten around to reading it just yet.
     
  21. Milk Tray Guy 70s Man of Action

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    How reliable is 'Myster Man'?
     
  22. Detective Conan Registered

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    Tweet was deleted, might’ve been a false alarm.
     
  23. Milk Tray Guy 70s Man of Action

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    :up:

    Let's hope!
     
  24. flickchick85 Admin of Might

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    What did the potential “false alarm” say?
     
  25. Milk Tray Guy 70s Man of Action

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    Supposedly 'inside information' that AT&T have decided to close down DC comics and licence the characters to other publishers.
     
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