The Official WONDER WOMAN Discussion Thread - Part 1

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a) change of direction, cause producers are suddenly aware of the danger in producing such a load of second-hand stuff;

How is there any danger? Smallville has won plenty of Emmy awards and i again repeat has lasted well into 10 seasons. Inflation of the genre? Hardly. Walking Dead and ABC's upcoming superhero shows don't seem to be going to a comedic route, unless Bendis' Powers/Alias cartoon has alot of comedy, i don't know anything about those so i can't really comment, but yeah we're getting Hulk and Punisher tv shows.
 
I personally don't think we're at the point in society where those sorts of things won't ever matter to a character. And frankly, I'm not sure we ever want to be at that point. Diversity is great because it's diverse. You brought up the concept of destroying otherness earlier and, while that's a great notion, I have to say that it's important to be mindful of not destroying race itself right along with otherness in the process. I like the way that this article puts it: "I would like the uniqueness of every single person to be admired, not ignored. Instead of trying to tackle and dismantle the idea of race, it would be more productive to address the racial inequality that prevails." There's absolutely nothing wrong with seeing differences in race, culture, gender, or nationality -- it's wrong when you discriminate based on those things, sure -- and a character that's devoid of those identifiers might as well be an alien from space (though...not always) instead of a real human being.

:up:

Agreed Brian
 
I think it's that last part, wherein the intent of changing Etta's race might (or might not) be to create more minority representation in an otherwise lily-white TV series, that makes this a little bit of a dangerous double-standard to me. Because arguing that a Caucasian character might not be truly identified with his or her race isn't actually a very large step at all from arguing that a black or Asian character might not be truly identified with his or her race. I know this because I've seen people take that exact specific step, make that precise argument, in support of adaptations that cast white actors for parts that were originally minorities.

After all, if we're saying that Etta Candy the character was so originally so racially-ambiguous that it doesn't even matter that much if she's a white woman, then the opposite would be true as well, wouldn't it?...if she was originally a black woman in the comics, then all else being equal there shouldn't be any problems with casting her as a white woman in the TV series.

Honestly, that's the only real concern I have to any of this. Things can be done in support of diversity, with the noblest of intentions, and still be done the wrong way. The concept of affirmative action, for instance, gets a really bad rep and sometimes deserves it; it was established to abolish inequality, but does so by being unequal. Point being, not being careful about these kinds of acts and being all laissez-faire about it can send really conflicting messages and results.

I honestly and deeply agree with everything you've said here. Regarding the double-standard that you've mentioned, yes by all means it stands that the opposite implication is possible, and it's a very harsh one at that. But at the same time the opposite has not occurred here. The biggest stretch in comics has got to be Nick Fury's Ultimate-version, even the writers on it admitted that it was to "make Fury more hip", and while I want to believe with every ounce of blood in me that they meant 'Samuel L. Jackson' the person(ality), I just can't get rid of the idea that by 'hip' they do mean 'turn him black, it's cool to be black these days, black black black'. That's just plain wrong. But if we consider the change within the context of the story (this is an entirely new point) was Nick Fury the character really effected by the colour-swap? It's jarring, it's a terrible implication, but I think you used the term rather well - laissez-faire. It's perhaps liberalism at its darkest.

If a stance that increases diversity and a stance that suppresses diversity can both be argued for with the exact same rationales -- "It's a reinvention, things can be changed." "This character is racially-inconsequential, doesn't matter if we change it." "It's more accessible this way." "etc etc" -- then maybe there's something deeply problematic about those rationales.
No I don't think that the rationale for diversity was "it's a reinvention", I only mentioned that because with reinventions (or adaptations) change is inevitable, and in this case among many others, the change is one of characterisation. Has the holistic character of Etta, or Pete, changed? Yes, of course they have, but has anything inherent about them changed with it? Not so much. It's still the character we've known from the source material. It's again as you've mentioned, you can interpret this quasi-diversity (superficial diversity?) both as something positive or something negative, and I agree that when there is something a big of a change as this the writers should be careful, but at the same time I'd like to think that we will accept the characters for who they are, not only by the colour of their skin. Is that too bizarre? Perhaps. The rationale is not 'the character is racially inconsequential' but maybe it's that the character is round enough to be recognisable beyond his or her race. I know this brings another problem to the table: if the character is so round, is he not similar to a real individual? If that is so, shouldn't she retain her original characterisation?
Maybe Etta or Pete isn't as rounded as we'd like to believe. Maybe the rationale for the change really is accessibility, that wouldn't be all that terrible an implication. But maybe it's just that they found Thoms or Sam Jones to be the more preferred actor, not because of their racial diversity but because of their availability?

True, but I might also point out that it's becoming another sort of awkward precedent wherein the white protagonist's best friends have the tendency of becoming black in these sorts of live-action adaptations. Evidently, the main characters are always too "racially-defined" to ever think of changing, but these secondary-characters are just the right amount of racially-ambiguous in the source material to turn into minorities? And why even make that kind of change? Do audiences just react better when the white protagonist's sidekicks are black? That's...not really okay either.
eek13.gif
Eh... sure you can always go that route. Why is Lucius Fox, while still being the CEO, a subordinate to Bruce Wayne? It's a white-man trying to squeeze resources out of a black guy's life, giving some things, but taking away his sense of professionalism! Fox is a subaltern! We can do that, post-colonial interpretations are some of my favourite sort. But I don think there's a point where we might be reading too much into it, in which case we're just showing our unwillingness to see things equally. But y'know what? That just might be ignorance talking again. It's no big riddle that majorities benefit from notions of equality (when they are superficial): Dude you can't possibly pull the racist card here! We're equal! "Yeah but whenever you're plannin to hang out or have meaningful conversations or whatever, it's either with Chloe or Lex... and I think--" "Shut up Pete! Shut up! You just don't have that much going for you in this episode is all. Now dig up this hole for the ship while I super-speed over to Lana's". :doh::oldrazz::dry:

But to be really fair, neither Pete, Lucius nor Black-Etta are 'others'. They are from the same world as their buddies, from the same culture, and ultimately inhabiting the same space (Krypton and Themyscira notwithstanding). Does this kill their racial dimension? On the whole it does not, but when we go to see their characterisation it really isn't visible at all (no idea for Etta, I'm talking about the other two). Maybe it's a nationalist approach to everything?

I'm not sure I understand. Etta Candy served the purposes of a minority in the comics in the sense that she was female and overweight (and she sure ain't gonna be overweight on the show; Tracie Thoms is perfectly fit) and so it...makes sense to have her serve as a whole other, more accessible sort of minority representation on this show? That's not just terrible, that's outright crazy. Minorities are no more interchangeable with each other than they are with the majority.
No that isn't what I meant. Of course they're not interchangeable. But maybe society has changed and the best way to reflect the idea of a minority group (not a specific minority group) is by choosing certain character traits that best reflects a contemporary minority. ...Um... am I being too vague? I'll gladly elaborate this view if you want me to.

I personally don't think we're at the point in society where those sorts of things won't ever matter to a character. And frankly, I'm not sure we ever want to be at that point. Diversity is great because it's diverse. You brought up the concept of destroying otherness earlier and, while that's a great notion, I have to say that it's important to be mindful of not destroying race itself right along with otherness in the process. I like the way that this article puts it: "I would like the uniqueness of every single person to be admired, not ignored. Instead of trying to tackle and dismantle the idea of race, it would be more productive to address the racial inequality that prevails." There's absolutely nothing wrong with seeing differences in race, culture, gender, or nationality -- it's wrong when you discriminate based on those things, sure -- and a character that's devoid of those identifiers might as well be an alien from space (though...not always) instead of a real human being.
This is a sound opinion, I will go through the article(s?) soon. And I agree, the nature of diversity is preserved when you accept the difference, not merely when you point a finger at them (which I believe mainstream comics are, unfortunately, guilty of doing). But somehow I don't think this is what is happening in the reinvented race-swaps. We might not be at that point in society but it's certainly something that is promoted, this is especially so in the American media (though I have a lot of respect for its willingness to question itself, a trait that is frighteningly missing in other nations).

If we come back to Etta and what this change might bring to the WW history: instead of the change showcasing a denouncement of racial diversity, perhaps its a vehicle through which it is announced? Maybe by making Etta a black woman you not only force the majority of viewers (themselves Caucasians) to consider the racial dimension of the character, but you highlight the importance of race itself, the need for diversity. Wonder Woman's is certainly the kind of story that encourages those themes. With her we don't run the risk of over-analysing the role of diversity (if such a thing exists), but are rather reminded of it in an implicit, if not explicit, manner. In this regard I would really like to know your views of modern-day Nu'bia.
 
How is there any danger? Smallville has won plenty of Emmy awards and i again repeat has lasted well into 10 seasons. Inflation of the genre? Hardly. Walking Dead and ABC's upcoming superhero shows don't seem to be going to a comedic route, unless Bendis' Powers/Alias cartoon has alot of comedy, i don't know anything about those so i can't really comment, but yeah we're getting Hulk and Punisher tv shows.

There is no such thing as a bad genre-piece. You don't get dumber through failed experiments, and you certainly don't get dumber reading a book that you think is 'dumb'. There are a lot of terrible superhero adaptations out there but they only help establish it as a genre. Like your Walking Dead example. :up:
 
Oh, la naïvété! :yay:

You got everything backwards. When you have an inflation in 1 genre, and with some disturbing campy crap already popping up, you are ALREADY in the downward spiral.

Of course you can't see it, the immediate optical illusion is that of bizzness glory.

But Smallville being that campy and now WW going CINO's direction (not to say some other indicators) suggest one of two ways ahead:

a) change of direction, cause producers are suddenly aware of the danger in producing such a load of second-hand stuff;

b) few years of that crapfest and then moving on to some other sort of genre.

Adaptations should of course do their best to be BETTER and deliver a quality show, but I don't think that the TV shows will effect the genre that much. I mean, I used to be afraid that a lack of WW success on TV would prompt producers to think that she's a character who doesn't work on screen, but that's not true is it? No the genre is thriving now, it is perhaps at its peak in Hollywood, the greater concern should be some of the hamfested superhero films that are out there (or coming out?) Nevertheless, when it comes to 'genre' I believe that more is almost always beneficial.

Of course, this is NOT AN EXCUSE TO PRODUCE TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE ADAPTATIONS!
 
People who compare this upcoming Wonder Woman series to CINO don't appreciate just how terrible the Catwoman movie truly was. Literally no other superhero adaptation has come close to Catwoman's level.
 
(love the new avatar Manic :D) It's true, Catwoman was terrible. I've officially had to imagine it as part of the Joel Shumacher universe to ameliorate my conscience.
 
Just a few minor points, because I think at this point we basically agree in spirit if not in technicalities. :)
Eh... sure you can always go that route. Why is Lucius Fox, while still being the CEO, a subordinate to Bruce Wayne? It's a white-man trying to squeeze resources out of a black guy's life, giving some things, but taking away his sense of professionalism! Fox is a subaltern! We can do that, post-colonial interpretations are some of my favourite sort. But I don think there's a point where we might be reading too much into it, in which case we're just showing our unwillingness to see things equally. But y'know what? That just might be ignorance talking again. It's no big riddle that majorities benefit from notions of equality (when they are superficial): Dude you can't possibly pull the racist card here! We're equal! "Yeah but whenever you're plannin to hang out or have meaningful conversations or whatever, it's either with Chloe or Lex... and I think--" "Shut up Pete! Shut up! You just don't have that much going for you in this episode is all. Now dig up this hole for the ship while I super-speed over to Lana's". :doh::oldrazz::dry:

But to be really fair, neither Pete, Lucius nor Black-Etta are 'others'. They are from the same world as their buddies, from the same culture, and ultimately inhabiting the same space (Krypton and Themyscira notwithstanding). Does this kill their racial dimension? On the whole it does not, but when we go to see their characterisation it really isn't visible at all (no idea for Etta, I'm talking about the other two). Maybe it's a nationalist approach to everything?
The reason I brought this part up specifically is because there's still a very real "glass ceiling" when it comes to minority representation in Hollywood. On the one hand, it's very true that people of color are receiving more and more visibility in our theaters and TV screens all the time. On the other hand...it's very rare that they're receiving this visibility as lead roles and protagonists. Pick any show at random on TV nowadays; if it features people of color, 9 times out of 10 they'll be featured as secondary characters; the best friends, the assistants, maybe even the villains, and so forth. Top billing, particularly the "heroic" roles, remains largely exclusive to white roles.

So what I'm saying is that merely getting minorities physically on the show, being able to announce that you have a "diverse cast," is merely the first step. Which isn't to say that Pete Ross and Etta Candy are insubstantial, one-note roles or somehow...I dunno, subservient to Clark or Diana or something. But the fact that these sorts of roles exist for minorities, in and of itself, is not...well, that groundbreaking.
 
People who compare this upcoming Wonder Woman series to CINO don't appreciate just how terrible the Catwoman movie truly was. Literally no other superhero adaptation has come close to Catwoman's level.

Hello! Elektra!
 
Hello! Elektra!

I meant as far as deviating from the source material, not just the overall lack of quality. Elektra was still about an assassin named Elektra Natchios who had a history with Daredevil and The Hand.

This Wonder Woman TV series is still about Diana from Paradise Island who is brought to the US by Steve Trevor and becomes a superhero.

Catwoman had a cat-ear mask, and that's about as close as they got to the comics. No movie or TV series has deviated as much as Catwoman. If anybody's in second place, however, it's probably Blade.
 
Just a few minor points, because I think at this point we basically agree in spirit if not in technicalities. :)The reason I brought this part up specifically is because there's still a very real "glass ceiling" when it comes to minority representation in Hollywood. On the one hand, it's very true that people of color are receiving more and more visibility in our theaters and TV screens all the time. On the other hand...it's very rare that they're receiving this visibility as lead roles and protagonists. Pick any show at random on TV nowadays; if it features people of color, 9 times out of 10 they'll be featured as secondary characters; the best friends, the assistants, maybe even the villains, and so forth. Top billing, particularly the "heroic" roles, remains largely exclusive to white roles.

So what I'm saying is that merely getting minorities physically on the show, being able to announce that you have a "diverse cast," is merely the first step. Which isn't to say that Pete Ross and Etta Candy are insubstantial, one-note roles or somehow...I dunno, subservient to Clark or Diana or something. But the fact that these sorts of roles exist for minorities, in and of itself, is not...well, that groundbreaking.

It will be. I think that the general audience today is willing to accept protagonists based on any minority. But I suppose it depends largely on what kind of show, or film, you're talking about.

Hello! Elektra!

Heh, I'm shocked to discover that there are movies based on superheroes, in my own house I might add, that I have yet to watch :oldrazz:

I meant as far as deviating from the source material, not just the overall lack of quality. Elektra was still about an assassin named Elektra Natchios who had a history with Daredevil and The Hand.

This Wonder Woman TV series is still about Diana from Paradise Island who is brought to the US by Steve Trevor and becomes a superhero.

Catwoman had a cat-ear mask, and that's about as close as they got to the comics. No movie or TV series has deviated as much as Catwoman. If anybody's in second place, however, it's probably Blade.

I don't think it's wise to compare the new Wonder Woman show with Catwoman and Elektra... please lets not do that :csad:
 
I meant as far as deviating from the source material, not just the overall lack of quality. Elektra was still about an assassin named Elektra Natchios who had a history with Daredevil and The Hand.

This Wonder Woman TV series is still about Diana from Paradise Island who is brought to the US by Steve Trevor and becomes a superhero.

Catwoman had a cat-ear mask, and that's about as close as they got to the comics. No movie or TV series has deviated as much as Catwoman. If anybody's in second place, however, it's probably Blade.
Agreed. Blade changed for the better though.
 
People who compare this upcoming Wonder Woman series to CINO don't appreciate just how terrible the Catwoman movie truly was. Literally no other superhero adaptation has come close to Catwoman's level.

Catwoman never happened Manic

That film never happened :dry:
 
So I've been whining a lot about stuff, and I might as well point out something that I do like, at least with what we know about the show so far: Diana's visibility. I like that Wonder Woman is a public figure who, apparently, doesn't hold back from her fans and is just as comfortable putting on some civvies and being out and about as she is with kicking ass as a superhero. We'll have to see exactly how this "corporate CEO" nonsense is gonna work out, but honestly I don't have a problem with "Diana Themyscira" and I think that being a public figure like that is fitting for her.

wonderwomanandlittlewon.jpg


One of the things that runs like Rucka's and Jimenez's did nicely was to depict Diana pretty much as Oprah, a very public personality who tackles a lot of endeavors and pretty much has a full day job. As a celebrity there's gonna be people who love her and people who don't, and she makes time for all of them. To reiterate an old point of mine, it's not something you can do with Superman who, if any fans came up to him for an autograph, would probably just fly away or set their notebooks on fire, depending on who's writing him that day. It's arguably not even something that Tony Stark truly captures. So what I like about the show -- so far -- is that Kelley seems to be combining that larger-than-life public sensibility of post-Crisis Diana with the affable personality of the old TV show Diana. Like I said some time ago when details of the script first got released, it's obvious that someone smart told Kelley to read Rucka's run...now it's just a matter of seeing how he runs with it.

Unfortunately, the X-factor in all this -- as usual, with the character in all her incarnations -- is "Diana Prince." How they tackle Diana Prince is going to make or break this ****. And from what we know of that so far...grooving to Katy Perry in her bedroom, crying emo tears for Steve? Not encouraging.

But hey, this was supposed to be a post about what I liked so far. :O
 
They need to add the bracelets and tiara to her Diana Themiscrya look though.
 
So I've been whining a lot about stuff, and I might as well point out something that I do like, at least with what we know about the show so far: Diana's visibility. I like that Wonder Woman is a public figure who, apparently, doesn't hold back from her fans and is just as comfortable putting on some civvies and being out and about as she is with kicking ass as a superhero. We'll have to see exactly how this "corporate CEO" nonsense is gonna work out, but honestly I don't have a problem with "Diana Themyscira" and I think that being a public figure like that is fitting for her.

wonderwomanandlittlewon.jpg


One of the things that runs like Rucka's and Jimenez's did nicely was to depict Diana pretty much as Oprah, a very public personality who tackles a lot of endeavors and pretty much has a full day job. As a celebrity there's gonna be people who love her and people who don't, and she makes time for all of them. To reiterate an old point of mine, it's not something you can do with Superman who, if any fans came up to him for an autograph, would probably just fly away or set their notebooks on fire, depending on who's writing him that day. It's arguably not even something that Tony Stark truly captures. So what I like about the show -- so far -- is that Kelley seems to be combining that larger-than-life public sensibility of post-Crisis Diana with the affable personality of the old TV show Diana. Like I said some time ago when details of the script first got released, it's obvious that someone smart told Kelley to read Rucka's run...now it's just a matter of seeing how he runs with it.

Unfortunately, the X-factor in all this -- as usual, with the character in all her incarnations -- is "Diana Prince." How they tackle Diana Prince is going to make or break this ****. And from what we know of that so far...grooving to Katy Perry in her bedroom, crying emo tears for Steve? Not encouraging.

But hey, this was supposed to be a post about what I liked so far. :O

If the show is half as good as Rucka's comic books it will be fab :up:
 
So I dont follow the comics so I would like some peoples opinions on which stories I should read? Is the current one any good? I only have one issue (602)

And what is the title of that WW series by Rucka?
 
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So I dont follow the comics so I would like some peoples opinions on which stories I should read? Is the current one any good? I only have one issue (602)

Stay away from the current story. Don't try to read the monthly comic until after #612.

Read any trade paperbacks with the names "Rucka," "Jimenez," or "Perez" written on them. Also, "The Circle" by Gail Simone is probably the last story arc that was almost universally enjoyed by Wonder Woman readers.
 
Ive heard some mixed reviews about Simones work? What were her stories like?(im reading the synopsis on The circle, it sounds amazing)

And whats up with the current story? I personally bought it because I liked the art(and the new costume is growing on me)
 
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Stay away from the current story. Don't try to read the monthly comic until after #612.

Read any trade paperbacks with the names "Rucka," "Jimenez," or "Perez" written on them. Also, "The Circle" by Gail Simone is probably the last story arc that was almost universally enjoyed by Wonder Woman readers.

This be good advice :up:

And the Marston stories are fab too
 
Ive heard some mixed reviews about Simones work? What were her stories like?(im reading the synopsis on The circle, it sounds amazing)

The Circle was amazing.

Simone was someone who "got" Wonder Woman as a character (and she sure as hell wrote an amazing supporting cast), but she seemed to have trouble constructing her stories. And they were all potentially good stories too. Simone wrote a story where Wonder Woman teamed up with Beowulf, and it had way too much inner monologue from Diana about slowly losing her mind without us (the readers) actually seeing any evidence of that happening.

"Rise of the Olympian" should have been a masterpiece, but I thought Simone failed to correctly pace or balance the two storylines it followed.


And whats up with the current story? I personally bought it because I liked the art(and the new costume is growing on me)

The current story is one of those "history has been altered, and now our hero must fight against all odds to restore a timeline she can't even remember" things. It's also a complete bloodbath. I think I've enjoyed maybe 2 of the 9 issues from it so far.
 
Hmm, from your little synopsis, the new series sound more like a fun what if story rather than a good, strong WW story.
I know the newer issue has a cover with the traditional WW fighting the others, is she going back to the traditional costume?
 
I hope so :up:

Manic said:
The current story is one of those "history has been altered, and now our hero must fight against all odds to restore a timeline she can't even remember" things. It's also a complete bloodbath. I think I've enjoyed maybe 2 of the 9 issues from it so far.;)

It has been too much of a bloodbath

But i liked the last issue with Dr Psycho thought it was much better

And the issue with the talking kitteh
 
Hmm, from your little synopsis, the new series sound more like a fun what if story rather than a good, strong WW story.
I know the newer issue has a cover with the traditional WW fighting the others, is she going back to the traditional costume?

She won't be. Didio referenced that she'd be keeping the pants. I'm guessing it'll probably be something resembling the TV show.

Also, to add to recommend to Manic's recommendations, JLA: A League of One is a fantastic Wonder Woman story with the JLA as a supporting cast. And, like Mysti, the Marston stuff without doubt. It's obviously a bit dated, so you'll have to put on your 1940s-50s glasses when reading them.

Though, I will warn about the bondage imagery. I know some people have a problem with that kind of stuff, and some often try to use it against those stories and the character (though most of those people really do not think critically about it, and really don't understand it past 'OMGZ, bondagez').
 
The bondage imagery is one of the many reasons i :hrt: the Marston comic books :awesome: :up:
 
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