The Godfather Trilogy Official Appreciation and Discussion thread!

[titansupes]

^ Yep, it's when he returns from Cuba - specifically after learning of Fredo's betrayal - that he starts seeing enemies everywhere, including Tom and Kay.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

The first time I was ever truly impressed by an actor or by acting as a trade was Pacino in the abortion scene. His eyes...

 

[gwynplaine]

I miss John Cazale. 5 films, 5 amazing performances.

 

[titansupes]

The first time I was ever truly impressed by an actor or by acting as a trade was Pacino in the abortion scene. His eyes...

He was incredible. When he pours himself a drink in that scene, and you can see his hand just trembling slightly.

 

[Wildcard]

Tom followed Vito's example more closely than any of the other Corleone kids.

Really? I always felt that Michael turned out the most like Vito, he had all of his ruthlessness & cunning. Was he as friendly? Definitely not.

And I don't blame Michael for his demeanor (except toward Tom) because he was dealing with a traitor of a brother & a wife who got an abortion to spite him out of nowhere. Not to mention Sonny's death & Apollonia being blown up in front of him in part one. Those kinds of things can indeed turn a person cold.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

Michael turned on his family, something Vito would never have done or would have allowed if he was alive. Michael also wasn't too keen on respecting his opposition like Vito did. Sonny, Tom, and Michael all had a bit of Vito in them to varying degrees, but Tom's actions in part two dealing with Geary and Pentangeli mirror Vito's calm, calculating approach to Fanucci and the landlord.

Michael kept his reign as the top crime boss in the country through force and intimidation, while Vito built his empire on respect, favors, friendship, and violence only as an inevitable means to an end. The two of them did hold a strong grip on family and felt an attack on the family was an act of war needing full retaliation, hence their conspiring to wipe out the other bosses. Michael had the intelligence to run the family, but he just could never fill out Vito's shoes as a man. A boss like Vito or Tom could be respected and complied with, while someone like Michael could only be, and was, an enemy in a him-or-me showdown.

 

[Schlosser85]

I can't see Vito ever having Fredo killed.

 

[Wildcard]

Maybe not but I was referring to his cunning, his ability to read people & to react in a ruthless manner, etc.

And I wouldn't really say Michael betrayed his family...because he didn't. We must all be forgetting that Fredo tried to have Michael killed FIRST. He gave info on him & then says he didn't know it would be a hit...they're in the Mob, no one is that stupid to really believe that.

As long as Fredo was alive EVERYONE in the family was in danger because he was weak minded & easy to manipulate. Chances are if he lived, eventually the Corleone family would've crumbled via his own stupidity, even if he was cut off.

And let's not forget it was FREDO who was fumbling with the gun when Vito was being shot. Not only that but rather than getting Vito help he sits there and cries.

So yeah, Fredo betrayed the family, not Michael. And Kay betrayed him as well by getting the abortion out of spite & basically spitting in his face. Connie betrayed him by constantly taking action out of spite (which she herself admits) even though he was justified in killing Carlo for setting up Sonny to be killed & for beating her constantly (especially while she was pregnant).

In fact, I'd argue that Michael was trying his hardest to keep everything together but he just wasn't as successful in doing so as Vito because he lacked the same warmth. But he definitely didn't betray the family, most of them betrayed him if you closely analyze the films.

Btw, this is totally random but am I the only one who thought Talia Shire/Connie looked her best in part III? Haha yeah I'm weird, I know.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

I think Fredo truly didn't know what Roth had in mind. He was always the runt of the litter and he didn't care so much for the work of a gangster, but rather the lifestyle. He was never given the same attention or education his brothers got. He wasn't cut out to be an important figure in the crime family.

Connie went out of her head after Carlo's death and hated Michael for the execution, so she flung herself around like an airhead just to piss him off. I wouldn't say she betrayed him or the family though. Everything she did were forgivable offenses.

Kay's abortion was her only way of striking back at Michael. Was it justified? It's debatable, but as the outsider to the "Sicilian thing" she wanted a way out, away from any more confinement and killings around her children.
She betrayed Michael, but out of protection for the children. She saw the writing on the wall and knew Michael was only getting colder as time passed.

I do agree that Michael didn't have the warmth to keep the family together. He rose the crime family higher in power than his father ever did, but almost singlehandedly destroyed the Corleones.

 

[Wildcard]

True, Fredo didn't have the intelligence of his brothers but that still doesn't excuse him selling Michael out to Roth. If anyone comes to me about my brother, I'm not telling them anything & I'd in fact be offended. I can't forgive Fredo for that...he was a grown man who made too many stupid mistakes given the lifestyle he was acquainted with.

And yes, Connie's offenses were totally forgivable, I won't argue there. Still, I feel that she should've understood why and not lashed out at Michael. He had their brother killed, that was reason enough to take him out without factoring in him beating her & talking down to her all the time.

I can see where Kay was coming from, but it was still wrong. She coudl've just as easily left and divorced Michael without aborting the child. She killed an innocent baby to spite Michael so that makes her no more honorable than he, probably less so. At the end of the day, I think we can all agree that Michael would've been better off with Apollonia.

Btw, does anyone ever wonder why Sollozo didn't ask for Fredo? I know McClusky broke Michael's jaw and they thought they could intimidate him but Fredo was a sure bet. Sollozo knew the moment Michael sat down that he was a dead man based on his expression. He was scared in every sense of the word and Michael didn't have to say anything.

Ole Fredo couldn't have ever pulled that off. haha

 

[LostSon88]

Up until that point Michael was considered a 'civilian' in the eyes of the other families and figured he knew nothing about that life. They thought they could intimidate him purely on the fact that he was a nobody.

Hell, even Tom and Sonny were laughing about the notion when Michael proposed that he would kill them.

Nobody could've predicted Michael to do what he did.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Fredo tried to have Michael killed FIRST. He gave info on him & then says he didn't know it would be a hit...they're in the Mob, no one is that stupid to really believe that.

Fredo really is that stupid.

 

[titansupes]

^ Fredo's SMAHT! Naht like everbahdy says!

 

[Wildcard]

Fredo really is that stupid.

There's still no excuse, he knew enough to know you don't give out info on your family, especially when you're the mafia.

And I don't see why they thought of Michael's plan (or him pulling it off) as silly & that he couldn't do it. Considering his awards for being in the army, it's likely he already saw more bloodshed & killed more men than everybody in the room.

Just thinking about it and Tessio was another one who was really, really stupid. Had he waited like Clemenza, he'd have been able to expand & hold more power/status while still being aligned with the Corleones. Instead, he turns on the Corleones and gets killed along with his new partners. You'd think he'd known better based on Paulie & others. haha

 

[Wildcard]

^ Fredo's SMAHT! Naht like everbahdy says!

Haha the best thing about that scene is even with all of Fredo's protests, he remains sitting while Michael stands over him, again showing he has no power & is subservient. He couldn't even take a stand while pleading his case...because he knew he wasn't as smaht as the others.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

And I don't see why they thought of Michael's plan (or him pulling it off) as silly & that he couldn't do it

 

[Schlosser85]

Michael and Kay probably both would have been better off if Michael had gotten to be with Appollonia.

And yes, I do think Fredo really was stupid enough to accidentally help set up a hit on Michael without knowing what it was. Fredo was a moron.

 

[Human Torch]

Maybe not but I was referring to his cunning, his ability to read people & to react in a ruthless manner, etc.

And I wouldn't really say Michael betrayed his family...because he didn't. We must all be forgetting that Fredo tried to have Michael killed FIRST. He gave info on him & then says he didn't know it would be a hit...they're in the Mob, no one is that stupid to really believe that.

As long as Fredo was alive EVERYONE in the family was in danger because he was weak minded & easy to manipulate. Chances are if he lived, eventually the Corleone family would've crumbled via his own stupidity, even if he was cut off.

And let's not forget it was FREDO who was fumbling with the gun when Vito was being shot. Not only that but rather than getting Vito help he sits there and cries.

So yeah, Fredo betrayed the family, not Michael. And Kay betrayed him as well by getting the abortion out of spite & basically spitting in his face. Connie betrayed him by constantly taking action out of spite (which she herself admits) even though he was justified in killing Carlo for setting up Sonny to be killed & for beating her constantly (especially while she was pregnant).

In fact, I'd argue that Michael was trying his hardest to keep everything together but he just wasn't as successful in doing so as Vito because he lacked the same warmth. But he definitely didn't betray the family, most of them betrayed him if you closely analyze the films.

Yeah, this is basically the way I've always seen it. Michael's family was more responsible for letting him down than the reverse. He did the best he could with what he had. I never thought Vito could've done better with that lot. But you have to remember Michael didn't command the respect of Connie & Fredo as a sibling like Vito would've as a father. Kay was all wrong for Michael to begin with. Vito married a good Sicilian girl who could get with the program. If Apollonia would've lived, it probably would've been a different story for Michael regarding his marriage woes.

Michael was at a disadvantage from the get go, so that's why I never felt a comparison with Vito over who was the greater Don was warranted. It was basically his family that made Michael more cold and unfeeling as Part II carried on.

 

[Wildcard]

^ That's a perfect summary & all of my thoughts in a nutshell. Very rarely do I try to justify the actions of the villain but over the last few viewings I stopped and thought "....is Michael really even a villain?" He's trying to get the family out of crime, he was legitimately trying and others were plotting to kill him. The fact that Kay didn't stand by him and be patient shows that he was betrayed & not the other way around.

Connie realized all of this, hence her coming clean at the end about her behavior. And I respect her for it. But Kay was smug about her decision to abort the child and Fredo didn't apologize once for nearly having Michael & his wife (and possibly children) killed. He just ranted about how he wanted respect.

Basically, everyone deserved what they got. It's easy to say Michael is the villain because as the Don he had to make the difficult decisions but really he was a guy who was trying to make it work but was surrounded by illogical people.

 

[Black Narcissus]

I always laugh at the old hitman.

 

[Parker Wayne]

It's funny, I remember an interview with a mobster that I saw in a magazine a few years ago (I forgot who and what magazine it was) in which the interviewer asked what he would have done with Fredo in Godfather Part III. He said if he was Michael, Fredo would have been dead sooner.

Mobster do not f**k around.

 

[Parker Wayne]

There's still no excuse, he knew enough to know you don't give out info on your family, especially when you're the mafia.

And I don't see why they thought of Michael's plan (or him pulling it off) as silly & that he couldn't do it. Considering his awards for being in the army, it's likely he already saw more bloodshed & killed more men than everybody in the room.

Just thinking about it and Tessio was another one who was really, really stupid. Had he waited like Clemenza, he'd have been able to expand & hold more power/status while still being aligned with the Corleones. Instead, he turns on the Corleones and gets killed along with his new partners. You'd think he'd known better based on Paulie & others. haha

Ah, poor Clemenza. It sucks his character died between Part I and Part II. He's one of the reasons I liked Part I more than Part II.

 

[titansupes]

Ah, poor Clemenza. It sucks his character died between Part I and Part II. He's one of the reasons I liked Part I more than Part II.

Yeah, it was Clemenza that was originally in the Frank Pentangeli component of the story, but apparently the actor wanted too much money and his girlfriend to write all his dialogue. It's too bad, it would have made the flashback scenes with Vito, Clemenza and Tessio that much more powerful.

 

[Parker Wayne]

Michael and Kay probably both would have been better off if Michael had gotten to be with Appollonia.

And yes, I do think Fredo really was stupid enough to accidentally help set up a hit on Michael without knowing what it was. Fredo was a moron.

I agree with both.

Appollonia grew up in that world and understands what needs to be done and what doesn't. She doesn't know any other world outside Sicilian mobsters. Whether it's right or wrong, she would have loved Michael through everything she did.

Kay never understood that world, no matter how much she tolerated it. She hit that breaking point where she couldn't have taken it anymore, and she decided to get an abortion as a way of getting back at Michael.

That bomber changed Michael's whole way of life, romantically speaking. He would have never left Appollonia and went to Kay if Appollonia didn't die.

 

[Parker Wayne]

Yeah, it was Clemenza that was originally in the Frank Pentangeli component of the story, but apparently the actor wanted too much money and his girlfriend to write all his dialogue. It's too bad, it would have made the flashback scenes with Vito, Clemenza and Tessio that much more powerful.

100% agreed.

I think if Clemenza was in that position instead of Pentangeli, I would definitely prefer Part II over Part I, and it would have made Michael look all the more ruthless (and I didn't think that was possible) to force a man in which he had more of rapport with to commit suicide than a guy we haven't seen before Part II.