The Guns thread - Part 1

[squeekness]

Don't forget the impact of social media. Now you can brag and show off your nightmare right before you commit it. You can get a lot more attention now for your actions. I think that has made things worse as well.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Don't forget the impact of social media. Now you can brag and show off your nightmare right before you commit it. You can get a lot more attention now for your actions. I think that has made things worse as well.

I think our social media culture is also creating a distance in society. Like, you can barely play a video game with another kid sitting next to you on the couch anymore. Now you have to do things online, and that creates poor social skills. As a whole, I think people are learning socialization less and less, which in turn creates a disconnect with other people. I think as a whole, is you're less attached to people or have and don't know how to handle things because you have poor social skills, you may lash out in destructive ways things and things like this can happen. This is just my observation, though.

I don't know if gun control will fix this problem. Not that I am against more gun control measures, I just think there is a deeper rooted cause to why this is happening. Treat the illness, not the symptom. Issue is, how to we diagnose the disease?

 

[squeekness]

I think our social media culture is also creating a distance in society. Like, you can barely play a video game with another kid sitting next to you on the couch anymore. Now you have to do things online, and that creates poor social skills. As a whole, I think people are learning socialization less and less, which in turn creates a disconnect with other people. I think as a whole, is you're less attached to people or have and don't know how to handle things because you have poor social skills, you may lash out in destructive ways things and things like this can happen. This is just my observation, though.

I don't know if gun control will fix this problem. Not that I am against more gun control measures, I just think there is a deeper rooted cause to why this is happening. Treat the illness, not the symptom. Issue is, how to we diagnose the disease?

Exactly. Gun control, while I am in favor of it, can only do so much. There has to be other causes we can and should address.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Exactly. Gun control, while I am in favor of it, can only do so much. There has to be other causes we can and should address.

Exactly. While if they institute more gun control short term it may make us FEEL like something is being done, I ultimately don't think these will stop. The only way this problem will be stopped is to identify the root cause.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

The fact that there has been such an increase in mass shootings lately also has elements of a fad. I wonder if the media's 24 / 7 bombardment of the shooters, their story, history, grievance, giving them their glorious 15 minutes, isn't having an impact.

 

[Spider-Fan]

The fact that there has been such an increase in mass shootings lately also has elements of a fad. I wonder if the media's 24 / 7 bombardment of the shooters, their story, history, grievance, giving them their glorious 15 minutes, isn't having an impact.

I think that 100% is a factor, but I even there don't think it is the entire piece of the pie.

 

[Matt Mortem]

There certainly is a cultural element to this. Too many people think the answer to their problem is a bullet. Still, it's easier to tighten gun laws than do an entire cultural shift.

 

[Spider-Fan]

There certainly is a cultural element to this. Too many people think the answer to their problem is a bullet. Still, it's easier to tighten gun laws than do an entire cultural shift.

That's true, but something still needs done culturally. We cannot just slap on some gun laws and call it a day. If we want a safer future for our children, we need to lay the groundwork for tomorrow's generation at least.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Cultural shift comes after state enforced regulation makes it the norm.

See: racism.

People didn't become magically tolerant. Black people fought for their rights. The state enshrined those rights. And the culture shifted afterwards.

 

[Matt Mortem]

That's true, but something still needs done culturally. We cannot just slap on some gun laws and call it a day. If we want a safer future for our children, we need to lay the groundwork for tomorrow's generation at least.

I'm not saying something can't be done culturally, but a good place to start is gun laws. It all goes hand in hand. I don't advocate for the banning of all firearms. I do advocate for smarter gun laws and tighter gun laws. I completely disagree with the notion that it would lead to only criminals having guns. That's an idiots argument and, in essence, an argument against ANY law. Seems to me that's like saying "if people are gonna break the law then why have the law at all."

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Exactly. Gun control, while I am in favor of it, can only do so much. There has to be other causes we can and should address.

Really? Most other countries in the world have high restrictions on firearms and they have very little mass slaughter using guns.

Seems to me like gun control is incredibly effective.

 

[squeekness]

Really? Most other countries in the world have high restrictions on firearms and they have very little mass slaughter using guns.

Seems to me like gun control is incredibly effective.

I'm sure those laws do help, but at the same trying to stop the "why" should also be in place. A determined killer can find ways around the laws by buying a gun illegally if they have the means.

 

[Hotwire]

I'm sure those laws do help, but at the same trying to stop the "why" should also be in place. A determined killer can find ways around the laws by buying a gun illegally if they have the means.

You a parent?

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I'm sure those laws do help, but at the same trying to stop the "why" should also be in place. A determined killer can find ways around the laws by buying a gun illegally if they have the means.

These people aren't determined killers. They are disturbed kids that live in a country with extremely easy access to guns.

If they were in any other country they would still be massive ahole, but without 18 kids dead.

Maybe he would knife someone, or kill someone, but it wouldn't be a small war zone.

That only happens in America. Because guns,

 

[squeekness]

You a parent?

Yup. No guns in my house, ever.

 

[squeekness]

These people aren't determined killers. They are disturbed kids that live in a country with extremely easy access to guns.

If they were in any other country they would still be massive ahole, but without 18 kids dead.

Maybe he would knife someone, or kill someone, but it wouldn't be a small war zone.

That only happens in America. Because guns,

This killer might have been stopped, but I'm not sure about Vegas. You can stop some with laws, but not all. (Please note that I am still very much in favor of strong laws, but I'm also a realist).

 

[LTuser]

Gun proliferation. Number of gun owners jumped up considerably from 2007-onwards and never stopped, and the numbers are there to back that up. It's not that people are crazier. It's that crazy people have easier access to guns then they used to. Glad to see, you also disagree with Trump striking down that particular regulation.

Thanks..
And on that 'gun proliferation' angle. Back when my elder brother attended high school in the late 80s, both his high school, and the neighboring one had TWO separate NROTC programs on them. one also had a drill squad, so it was not an issue, to see the kids going back and forth in their uniform carrying their rifles.. YET i don't remember once hearing of a 'shooting on campus' back then...

Because that "right" is causing a ridiculously disproportionate number of shooting incidents vs the rest of the developed world. And I do believe you know that the US's lax gun laws are totally the reason why there's constant mass shootings. You just believe that "liberty" is more important.

Then why is it chicago, which has some of the most restrictive gun laws around, has some of the HIGHEST gang related gun violence?

Also we have what, 500+ laws already on the books in relation to gun regulation, from local, to state, to federal level. PLUS LAWS against shooting people, against murder, against carrying guns on campuses etc..
So what makes you think making yet MORE laws will do anything to reign it in?
Add to that, over 80% of these mass shootings, have been caused NOT BY ARs and other 'assault weapons', but by MERE PISTOLS..
So should that not mean we should ban PISTOLS?

Additionally, if we want to ban something based on the # of people killed by it, i saw this elsewhere, which imo is a GREAT analogy..

From this website......https://www.edgarsnyder.com/car-accident/cause-of-accident/cell-phone/cell-phone-statistics.html
The National Safety Council reports that cell phone use while driving leads to 1.6 million crashes each year.
Nearly 330,000 injuries occur each year from accidents caused by texting while driving.
1 out of every 4 car accidents in the United States is caused by texting and driving.
Texting while driving is 6x more likely to cause an accident than driving drunk.
Answering a text takes away your attention for about five seconds. Traveling at 55 mph, that's enough time to travel the length of a football field.
Texting while driving causes a 400% increase in time spent with eyes off the road.
Of all cell phone related tasks, texting is by far the most dangerous activity.
94% of drivers support a ban on texting while driving.
74% of drivers support a ban on hand-held cell phone use.
11 teens die every day as a result of texting while driving.
According to a AAA poll, 94% of teen drivers acknowledge the dangers of texting and driving, but 35% admitted to doing it anyway.
21% of teen drivers involved in fatal accidents were distracted by their cell phones.
Teen drivers are 4x more likely than adults to get into car crashes or near-crashes when talking or texting on a cell phone.
A teen driver with only one additional passenger doubles the risk of getting into a fatal car accident. With two or more passengers, they are 5x as likely.
In 2013, 3,154 people were killed in distraction-related crashes.
About 424,000 people were injured in crashes involving a distracted driver.
In 2013, 10% of all drivers ages 15 to 19 involved in fatal accidents were reported to be distracted at the time of the crash.
So instead of outlawing Remington, Winchester, Ruger, Mossberg, Glock, Smith and Wesson, how about outlawing Samsung, Apple and other cell phone makers, then we can move to outlaw Cricket, AT and T, Sprint, T Mobile. Due to the complete thoughtless use of these communication devices, that are meant to communicate in a safe manner, we should be looking at these as mass murder devices.


Using this analogy, say my nephew is driving safely and keeping his mind on the road and goes through an intersection and is broadsided by a driver texting while driving. After the funeral, can we sue the driver of the other car, but can we sue Apple who made his cell phone, can we sue Sprint who supplies his connection? No we can't. The only thing we could do is bankrupt the ruthless ****er who just had to answer or read the text from his wife telling him to pick up a box of tampons for her while he is out.

Glad there are no gun nuts here!

Krystal, may i ask, what do you define as a gun nut?

Something needs to change though, agreed. There's stuff we can do to prevent at least some of these - like the Vegas guy having bump-stocks and some of these stooges wearing body armor is just insane. That can be cracked down on hard. You could make background checks tougher, and maybe re-organize the system so there's better communication between stores and agencies (sort of like what we did with the homeland security stuff after 9/11). Mandatory minimums for anyone who points a gun at anyone, even if they don't fire.

I'd be ok with making it, that to BUY Body armor, one must have PROOF OF needing it for your work. Whether as armed (or even unarmed) security, Private bodyguards, cops (inc mall ones) or the like..

As for "Making backround checks harder".. Look at the info coming out about this shooter (and several others)< WHO WERE REPORTED to the authorities for their hateful rhetoric and the like, and WERE supposedly investigated.. YET NOTHING happened to flag them.
Or as i mentioned, that shooter in Texas, who IF THE AF Actually did as the law required (and reported his mental issues as well as his dishonorable discharge), Would have caused a flag to have been raised on his backround check. And thus he wouldn't (or shouldn't) have gotten the weapons he used..

Hell, I don't know, maybe even bump up purchasing age to 21 or something, like with booze. Doubtful that'd do much, but you might cut off a few of these school-age or recently-out-of-school guys from being able to get them legally, at least.

Even as a very pro-2nd amendment guy, i would be ok with that.. But i also feel if you are going to make gun ownership/drinking age 21.. Then make going in the MIL also 21, and voting too...

That'd be 3/4 + of the entire modern gun market. Which, sure, would please people on the "ban it all!" side of things. America as a whole isn't of that mindset though. Restrictions, regulations? Absolutely. You start banning entry-level semi-automatic rifles though, you've basically gotta ban it all if you're consistent.

And if we did ban all guns, what of Cell phones (like i showed above), or making you have to do a backround check to drive a van or truck (since they've been used to do mass killings)??
Plus if you DO ban them, are you then going to have the military or cops do FORCED round ups and confiscations of all the 300+ million guns out there in private ownership??

Canada has guns aplenty. Not U.S. level, but more than Australia or the UK or most of Europe.

Switzerland has a higher rate of guns than the U.S. does. And, heh, they're fully-autos, not semis like these things being used over here for most of these awful shootings.

No shooting spree problems there. Gotta be a social thing, logic would dictate.

Exactly Ax. A # of countries out there, are just like the US in how many guns are out there. BUT they don't suffer these shootings.. So to ME, logically its NOT a 'we have too many guns' problem, but something else..

To early to talk about it again, plenty of thoughts and prayers instead *sigh*

Psych Evaluations for every gun purchase. Japan does this for people who want to use B.B. Guns

And if we DID go that route, what 'psychological' issues, would YOU SAY should disqualify someone from owning a gun??

JeetKuneDo is close, but I don't think it's making the shooter "famous" that is causing the rise in shootings (at least not entirely). It's the fear narrative that the media pushes every single day. Scared people are not only easier to convince of things (Iraq War), they're easier to sell guns to. If it bleeds, it leads. And given how much disaster and tragedy the American public is subject to every day through the media, it's no surprise that people think rapists, pedophiles, home invaders, etc are just around the corner waiting to strike.

Those are both good points. WE seem to spend MORE TIME glorifying and pushing out all this info on the shooter, yet spend barely 1/20th the time focusing on the victims...

Don't forget the impact of social media. Now you can brag and show off your nightmare right before you commit it. You can get a lot more attention now for your actions. I think that has made things worse as well.

Which is why i do feel, that social media BARES some of the blame here.. Just like it took a concerted effort from the media, before facebook banned those gang members early last year; when they live streamed their beating up of that special needs kid, rather than doing it AS SOON AS IT got reported "HEY SOMEONE is livestreaming a crime, why don't you do something about it."

Continued next post..

 

[LTuser]

I think our social media culture is also creating a distance in society. Like, you can barely play a video game with another kid sitting next to you on the couch anymore. Now you have to do things online, and that creates poor social skills. As a whole, I think people are learning socialization less and less, which in turn creates a disconnect with other people. I think as a whole, is you're less attached to people or have and don't know how to handle things because you have poor social skills, you may lash out in destructive ways things and things like this can happen. This is just my observation, though.

Which is why i feel it SHOULD NOT Be called social media.. AS ITS making us less social imo.. As a kid, i used to leave my house to go OVER my friends house, if i wanted to find out what he was doing, and join in with him on that.. Or i grabbed my ball, went over several friends and see if they wanted to come out to kick a ball around..

I've been in restaurants that, other than some screaming kids/babies, were rather Silent, cause no one was TALKING.. They were all too busy heads down, texting back and forth..

Exactly. While if they institute more gun control short term it may make us FEEL like something is being done, I ultimately don't think these will stop. The only way this problem will be stopped is to identify the root cause.

And as i said yesterday, implementing MORE laws, when the ones we already have are often being ignored, won't do anything.. ESPECIALLY if those new laws also get ignored..

 

[Hotwire]

Yup. No guns in my house, ever.

Than you understand that even though you KNOW your kids are going to try and play with dangerous stuff, you still take precautions to prevent them from getting hurt.

 

[squeekness]

Than you understand that even though you KNOW your kids are going to try and play with dangerous stuff, you still take precautions to prevent them from getting hurt.

Why take the chance? Especially during the teen angst years. Even if they didn't go after anyone else, they could use them for suicide. A gun is all too easy.

 

[chaseter]

Sad that this happened and not shocked to see that an AR15 was used.

 

[Hotwire]

Why take the chance? Especially during the teen angst years. Even if they didn't go after anyone else, they could use them for suicide. A gun is all too easy.

I'm thinking we agree more than we realize.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

Really? Most other countries in the world have high restrictions on firearms and they have very little mass slaughter using guns.

Seems to me like gun control is incredibly effective.

The thing is though, we literally have more guns than people in this country. All of these other countries have had varying degrees of restrictions on gun ownership for a very long time.

That certainly isn't stating this moronic mindset that there will always be guns so may as well do nothing that is the most common BS excuse towards gun control.

Then why is it chicago, which has some of the most restrictive gun laws around, has some of the HIGHEST gang related gun violence?

Also we have what, 500+ laws already on the books in relation to gun regulation, from local, to state, to federal level. PLUS LAWS against shooting people, against murder, against carrying guns on campuses etc..
So what makes you think making yet MORE laws will do anything to reign it in?
Add to that, over 80% of these mass shootings, have been caused NOT BY ARs and other 'assault weapons', but by MERE PISTOLS..
So should that not mean we should ban PISTOLS?

The majority of this post and most of what I've seen you post so far in your time here borderlines on incoherent rambling so I'm going to address this part specifically. But look at Chicago... is the laziest anti-gun control argument for over two decades now.

If anything, you're proving the point that we need strict gun control laws across the board. The problem does not line Chicago's strict gun control laws, it lies with all of the surrounding states and areas that DO NOT have strict gun control laws.

We can look at dry counties and see they have a disproportionate amount of DUI's to non-dry counties due to people driving to the close area that allows them to buy booze. Every state needs to be playing by the same rules on common sense gun control to even remotely put a dent in this problem.

I'll make two last points, Australia passed stricter common sense gun control in the 90's coupled with a government buyback program leading to a drastic reduction in both homicide with the lowest homicide rate in the country for over 2 decades.

The vast majority of all gun deaths are not only cause by handguns but are also suicides. Trump just rolled back protections to prevent people struggling with mental health issues and then a kid with mental health issues stoked by extreme alt-right propagandist leads to a school shooting. Must just be some kind of terrible coincidence huh?

 

[conan69]

Forgot my ipod and heard this in the car today.
A good discussion addressing the multiple issues here...


http://player.streamtheworld.com/_players/citadel/?sid=9098

 

[BillPardy]

If anything, you're proving the point that we need strict gun control laws across the board. The problem does not line Chicago's strict gun control laws, it lies with all of the surrounding states and areas that DO NOT have strict gun control laws.

This has even bigger implications. If the U.S had stricter gun laws it would impact Canada, since in roughly 70% of gun deaths in Toronto, the weapon was smuggled into the country from the U.S.