The Guns thread - Part 1

[Mike_D202]

It's called an Amendment, it can be amended. It was made during a time when they had muskets and were fighting a corrupt king for freedom. Anybody who is paranoid about a tyrannical government this day in age shouldn't be allowed to have devices that are designed to kill anyway.

 

[Donner]

I have been around firearms my whole life. I was five or six years old the first time I shot a .22 rifle and have shot everything from single shot black powder to semi-automatic versions of AK-47s. The idea of an AR-15 for home defense is still something I cannot wrap my head around. Especially in a sub-urban or urban environment where houses and/or apartments are so close together. That bullet is leaving the barrel at 3,000 feet per second. I have seen videos of that round going through 4 panels of sheetrock spaced ten feet apart. The worst part is that bullet will most likely splinter into separate pieces. I would not want to take the chance of putting a bullet through my neighbors house and hurt or kill them trying to defend myself. Better off with a shotgun loaded with #8 birdshot. I hate the home defense angle which gets incessantly spouted out concerning that weapon.

The AR is a good varmint weapon if you live out in the sticks and don't have to worry about collateral damage. It's not very good for hunting depending on the size of the game you are tracking. Where I grew up, you could not use a 22 caliber (meaning .22 rimfire, .222, or .223 IE 5.56) sized round for deer hunting for many years.

The AR-15 seems to be more of a vanity thing than anything else.

Quoted because this guy gets it.

 

[hitmanyr2k]

*

It's called an Amendment, it can be amended. It was made during a time when they had muskets and were fighting a corrupt king for freedom. Anybody who is paranoid about a tyrannical government this day in age shouldn't be allowed to have devices that are designed to kill anyway.

I was watching Lincoln the other day on cable and the scene where a skirmish happens and a guy gets a shot off and then has to take 20+ seconds to reload his gun to get take another shot just showed how out-dated the 2nd amendment really is. The would-be victim had time to gather his papers, kick dirt on the shooter and insult him before running away lol. These days you have a second.

 

[Aximili86]

I think all the shootings pretty much show that we, the American people, are simply not mature enough as a society to properly handle having so many guns around.

By-and-large though we are. There are 5 million AR-10s/15s in the country (as of 2016), and a 300mil+ population.

These shootings are heinous, horrible, the worst thing imaginable. And sure, they seem to be happening awfully frequently. Thing is, they're not though, in terms of numbers of people buying them that go and commit a crime with them. Even if you take the what, 20 major incidents with these weapons over 10 years or so, that's 20 crazies out of 5 million owners that are an issue.

And those crazies would just use some other semi-automatic rifle or semi-automatic handgun or a shotgun, if you managed to get an AR-10/15 ban in place. Those other 4 000 080 owners are using them for hunting & home defence alone.

Yeah, we should make background checks tougher, find a way to raise the bar to qualify to own one of these things. You don't ban them entirely though, when the stats bear out the ridiculously tiny amount of people ever doing anything wrong with them. It's horrible what's happening, it really is. But it's crazy people, outliers, exceptions-to-the-rule, and in a big way.

 

[Hotwire]

Especially when that right says "Shall not be infringed" in its wording..

So many love to point out that part while totally ignoring the, "A well regulated militia," part.

 

[Lighthouse]

By-and-large though we are. There are 5 million AR-10s/15s in the country (as of 2016), and a 300mil+ population.

These shootings are heinous, horrible, the worst thing imaginable. And sure, they seem to be happening awfully frequently. Thing is, they're not though, in terms of numbers of people buying them that go and commit a crime with them. Even if you take the what, 20 major incidents with these weapons over 10 years or so, that's 20 crazies out of 5 million owners that are an issue.

And those crazies would just use some other semi-automatic rifle or semi-automatic handgun or a shotgun, if you managed to get an AR-10/15 ban in place. Those other 4 000 080 owners are using them for hunting & home defence alone.

Yeah, we should make background checks tougher, find a way to raise the bar to qualify to own one of these things. You don't ban them entirely though, when the stats bear out the ridiculously tiny amount of people ever doing anything wrong with them. It's horrible what's happening, it really is. But it's crazy people, outliers, exceptions-to-the-rule, and in a big way.

So what? We ban a ton of things that a only a fringe group of Americans would use against others. I'm sure there are several military weapons that the "outliers" and "fringe" would use. I still want them banned.

 

[LTuser]

Secondly, the idea of forming a militia was formed at a time when even local law enforcement was pretty much non-existent never mind state or federal law enforcement!

There is simply no logical reason other than the political influence of the NRA among others, why this amendment shouldn't be subject to scrutinisation.

And why did we have the militia.. To defend against an abusive government. NOT cause we didn't have all these armed govt agencies..

I think all the shootings pretty much show that we, the American people, are simply not mature enough as a society to properly handle having so many guns around. As a parent, when your kid can handle something, you usually take it away before they for something. Maybe we just need a time out for a while in the form of tight regulations.

BUT what has happened TO our society, to make it where all these people are 'less mature' than we used to be??

 

[DeadPresident]

It’s adorable how people think a well-armed public would manage to achieve anything against the military force at the US government’s disposal.

 

[Doug_Moore]

Anybody who is paranoid about a tyrannical government this day in age shouldn't be allowed to have devices that are designed to kill anyway.

The same government that spies on its citizens, meddles in foreign elections, and starts wars for profit?

 

[DeadPresident]

The same government that spies on its citizens, meddles in foreign elections, and starts wars for profit?

You could argue the US government has already been tyrannical for some time then, so when are all these intelligent and brave members of the public going to grab their weapons and overthrow it - since they’re so well coordinated?

 

[Donner]

So what? We ban a ton of things that a only a fringe group of Americans would use against others. I'm sure there are several military weapons that the "outliers" and "fringe" would use. I still want them banned.

Yeah, don't ban guns but ban the sale of an album because of explicit language or fireworks just because. North American society bans so much **** but never the things that actually matter.

 

[Donner]

It’s adorable how people think a well-armed public would manage to achieve anything against the military force at the US government’s disposal.

Hahaha, I think about this all the time. As if some crack pots in the South with a stockpile of AR15s and grenades and no tactical training could ever go toe to toe with the US Army.

 

[Jericholyte]

These shootings are heinous, horrible, the worst thing imaginable. And sure, they seem to be happening awfully frequently. Thing is, they're not though, in terms of numbers of people buying them that go and commit a crime with them. Even if you take the what, 20 major incidents with these weapons over 10 years or so, that's 20 crazies out of 5 million owners that are an issue.

That argument holds no weight at all. If a car manufacturer finds out a few faulty airbags have resulted in driver deaths, they recall all the models that might have that fault. If a batch of chicken results in food poisoning, the supermarkets advise everyone to throw away all chicken purchased between two dates. If any number of legislation are found to have loopholes which people exploit for personal gain or to harm others, they're updated to close the loopholes.

And let's not forget that currently the US President is attempting to ban the travel of people from Muslim-majority countries. Islamic extremism has accounted for 120 or so deaths since 9/11, never mind the fact none have come from any of the countries on the travel ban list.

Plus, the general Islamophobia at the moment, again 120'peoplemkilledmin the last 16/17 years by a handful of extremists of a religion which accounts for 3.3m Americans and nearly 2 billion people worldwide.

The argument simply doesn't hold up.

 

[Hotwire]

And why did we have the militia.. To defend against an abusive government. NOT cause we didn't have all these armed govt agencies..

We had a militia because we didn't have a standing army.

 

[Texas Zombie]

We had a militia because we didn't have a standing army.

When the Declaration of Independence was signed we already had created the continental army, which is the precursor of today’s modern day United States armed forces. The bill of rights was just a series of amendments which for the most part were anti-federalist sanctions on the higher government. The militia part was to protect states from the federal government, not because we didn’t already have a primary military force.

 

[Texas Zombie]

Deleted.

 

[Teelie]

You misunderstand that the standing army was never intended, that a state militia was not "every citizen has a right to a gun" only that states have a right to a militia and that deliberate misinterpeting of the 2nd amendment is where we stand now, with people more concerned with being allowed a gun than the fact we have an out of control gun culture that just can't accept restraint. Because restraint to them is the same thing as banning (even though it isn't).

 

[TheCommissioner]

Im a veteran, Ive been around weapons of war

prior to that, I was Junior NRA from 14, then regular NRA till I was 24-25 and even then (im 38 now), I saw the NRA go from being about safety and hunting to "OMG Everyone is dangerous, arm yourself, your family and the dog"

its time for change

and here's what people aren't getting

these kids growing up in the shadow of Sandy Hook, Littleton, Ft Hood, VA Tech, now Parkland...they have ZERO positive reason to support guns in any way

and those kids are going to be voters soon

 

[Teelie]

I was actually just researching a history of the NRA to point out that exact thing. Unsurprisingly, racism was at least in part behind the NRA's change of tune from gun safety and restraint to guns for everyone and zero regulation. There is plenty more I can dig up although I realize it is a frivolous task as gun activists will never relent in their theory restraint is equal to ban.

 

[TheCommissioner]

I was actually just researching a history of the NRA to point out that exact thing. Unsurprisingly, racism was at least in part behind the NRA's change of tune from gun safety and restraint to guns for everyone and zero regulation.

being a black person, there was always this undercurrent of it, but they "tried" to reach out to minorities in the 90s, but that was short lived

 

[Aximili86]

Long before the 90s. MLK was at least sympathetic to some of their stuff during the civil rights movement. Likely not all, but yeah.

 

[Sithborg]

Im a veteran, Ive been around weapons of war

prior to that, I was Junior NRA from 14, then regular NRA till I was 24-25 and even then (im 38 now), I saw the NRA go from being about safety and hunting to "OMG Everyone is dangerous, arm yourself, your family and the dog"

its time for change

and here's what people aren't getting

these kids growing up in the shadow of Sandy Hook, Littleton, Ft Hood, VA Tech, now Parkland...they have ZERO positive reason to support guns in any way

and those kids are going to be voters soon

Listening to the kids from Florida, I feel good for the next generation. Hopefully the boomers and my generation don't totally screw it up.

 

[squeekness]

BUT what has happened TO our society, to make it where all these people are 'less mature' than we used to be??

Social media, the rise of attention getting terrorism, and unleashing our inner bigots have something to so with it, I'm sure.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

And why did we have the militia.. To defend against an abusive government. NOT cause we didn't have all these armed govt agencies..



BUT what has happened TO our society, to make it where all these people are 'less mature' than we used to be??

I love how everyone that brings up the 2nd amendment always seems to conveniently forget the "well regulated" part of the aforementioned militia.

It's almost as if our forefathers didn't think a bunch of uneducated, untrained, armed Americans would be a good thing?!

It’s adorable how people think a well-armed public would manage to achieve anything against the military force at the US government’s disposal.

Ya that part always cracks me. One argument is that the soldiers would never go after fellow Americans (spoiler alert: they would) and even if that were the case the tech the US military posses means the could use almost no soldiers to get the job done if they so chose.

being a black person, there was always this undercurrent of it, but they "tried" to reach out to minorities in the 90s, but that was short lived

I've always wondered how quickly the NRA would change their tune if we had droves of minorities exercising their 2nd amendment to arm themselves and show up for NRA meetings to let them know they support the cause.

 

[Teelie]

The link I posted above discusses that exact thing when it happened in California.