The Guns thread - Part 1

[BillPardy]

It’s adorable how people think a well-armed public would manage to achieve anything against the military force at the US government’s disposal.

Logically you think so. But Vietnam and Afghanistan are the two longest American wars. Where the one side was/is essentially a well armed public vs the military might of the Us government.

 

[TheCommissioner]

- universal background checks
- standard permitting and ownership the same across all 50 states

personally, I want an arsenal tax

you want to own more than 4-5 weapons, you pay a property tax every year, just like your car, just like your house

 

[squeekness]

- universal background checks
- standard permitting and ownership the same across all 50 states

personally, I want an arsenal tax

you want to own more than 4-5 weapons, you pay a property tax every year, just like your car, just like your house

Fine by me. Better than the gas tax Trump wants.

 

[DeadPresident]

Logically you think so. But Vietnam and Afghanistan are the two longest American wars. Where the one side was/is essentially a well armed public vs the military might of the Us government.

Except both those examples are of guerrilla warfare in unfamiliar locations where it’s extremely time and resource intensive to get supplies.

None of those restrictions would apply if the US military had to engage on its own soil where they A) Have perfect information and B) Are arm’s reach away from all their ordinance and resources. So while they look similar on the surface they’re actually nothing alike, at all.

 

[Orba]

- universal background checks
- standard permitting and ownership the same across all 50 states

personally, I want an arsenal tax

you want to own more than 4-5 weapons, you pay a property tax every year, just like your car, just like your house

How about requiring insurance as part of gun ownership?

 

[TheCommissioner]

im fine with that

for everyone saying this is a "mental health issue"

is it really?

because women and queer kids take a lot of abuse but don't shoot up schools

this is an angry/disturbed WHITE MAN problem

 

[Hotwire]

When the Declaration of Independence was signed we already had created the continental army, which is the precursor of today’s modern day United States armed forces. The bill of rights was just a series of amendments which for the most part were anti-federalist sanctions on the higher government. The militia part was to protect states from the federal government, not because we didn’t already have a primary military force.

Well, if that's the case, we're STILL ignoring the, "Well regulated," part!

 

[Hotwire]

Logically you think so. But Vietnam and Afghanistan are the two longest American wars. Where the one side was/is essentially a well armed public vs the military might of the Us government.

We rolled over and let TSA touch our naughty bits. Yeah, we'll stand up to a tank.

 

[summerteeth]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/17/politics/romney-gun-measures/index.html

I'm glad Romney is back in politics.

 

[BillPardy]

Except both those examples are of guerrilla warfare in unfamiliar locations where it’s extremely time and resource intensive to get supplies.

None of those restrictions would apply if the US military had to engage on its own soil where they A) Have perfect information and B) Are arm’s reach away from all their ordinance and resources. So while they look similar on the surface they’re actually nothing alike, at all.

I think it has more to do with the fact that from start of the 20th century a stand up army has slowly lost its effectiveness in conquering a country. Which is why if you wanted to reap the benefits of taking over a place you'd do something like, buy up real estate in that country, maybe rig their elections, create a dependency on you for aid.

And one of the main reasons for that is because a gun is a equalizer. An individual with virtually no weapons training can murder dozens, potentially even hundreds, just by having a functioning trigger finger. And a terrorist group with access to the internet can learn to make bombs in their basement.

In response to your rationalization for why Vietnam and Afghanistan were different. Germany invaded France during WWII, a country geographically not that different, a country they're familiar with from previous wars (To the point that many serving in high ranking positions in the military had first hand experience fighting there), and a country close enough to their main resources and command. But, the French Resistance formed, made up of armed and educated members of the public, and I'm willing to bet that if the war had proceeded the resistance would have lasted decades.

I want to make it clear that I'm in no way of the belief that a well armed militia is necessary to rise against the tyrannical government. I think it's an irrational fear.

And, I hope I'm not coming off as combatant, this is all in the spirit of engaging conversation.

 

[LTuser]

That argument holds no weight at all. If a car manufacturer finds out a few faulty airbags have resulted in driver deaths, they recall all the models that might have that fault. If a batch of chicken results in food poisoning, the supermarkets advise everyone to throw away all chicken purchased between two dates. If any number of legislation are found to have loopholes which people exploit for personal gain or to harm others, they're updated to close the loopholes.

BUT why not use that logic to rule on other things..
If you have a judge who makes rulings, but those rulings are overturned MORE THAN 30% of the time then remove him from the bench.
If a product cause of how it's used kills more than X people, lets ban it (which means alcohol, cars/trucks/vans, cell phones should now all be banned)..

I love how everyone that brings up the 2nd amendment always seems to conveniently forget the "well regulated" part of the aforementioned militia.

DJ, and where have me (or others here who are pro 2nd amendment) stated that we do NOT agree with making those wanting to get a gun, to have training and certification to own them?? THAT to me is the 'well regulated'..

 

[Thundercrack85]

The Constitution was made for the people, not the people for the Constitution. It can be amended. It has been. 17 times.

Even if you're an originalist, I doubt the idea behind the 2nd Amendment was for crazy people to have easy access to an AR-15.

 

[Sithborg]

Calling the first 10 the "bill of rights" has also added an uneccessary level of reverence.

 

[conan69]

Changed my mind and decided to stay out of this.

 

[Kelly]

The Constitution was made for the people, not the people for the Constitution. It can be amended. It has been. 17 times.

Even if you're an originalist, I doubt the idea behind the 2nd Amendment was for crazy people to have easy access to an AR-15.

Yeah...what is it up to now, about 200x faster than guns of that era? Of course people could own cannons as well.....

 

[Sithborg]

Yeah, I think the generation that has truly lived through the era of school shootings are going to have some harsh words in the future.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/17/us/florida-student-emma-gonzalez-speech/index.html

I remember living through Columbine. I can't even imagine what the current generation is dealing with. Definitely think, much like with the #metoo movement, there is a sleeping well of political power that will get unleashed eventually.

 

[Texas Zombie]

Yeah...what is it up to now, about 200x faster than guns of that era? Of course people could own cannons as well.....

Psh you can still make a canon out of PVC pipe and launch potatoes.

 

[LTuser]

Calling the first 10 the "bill of rights" has also added an uneccessary level of reverence.

But that's what they WERE called by those who wrote them.

 

[Jericholyte]

BUT why not use that logic to rule on other things..
If you have a judge who makes rulings, but those rulings are overturned MORE THAN 30% of the time then remove him from the bench.
If a product cause of how it's used kills more than X people, lets ban it (which means alcohol, cars/trucks/vans, cell phones should now all be banned)...

Are you seriously trying to put guns and cell phones in the same bracket?

Let's have a look at the purpose of such products. Whilst personally I can completely do without tobacco (as I don't smoke) or alcohol (as I very rarely drink), what is the purpose of them?

What is the purpose of a vehicle or a cell phone? It is only through abuse of such items that certain items can be used to kill people.

What is the purpose of a gun? In every single mass shooting the killer was using the gun to its correct purpose, to kill.

 

[Hotwire]

I recently put this on Facebook and figured I'd share it here, too.

To those saying we should arm teachers, check the math.

There are around 3.2 million teachers in the US. Let's say you give them each a Glock 9MM for $600 a piece. That $1.92 billion and another $70.4 million for 20 rounds each. At least another $320 million to train them. So, just to get the program started in the public schools you're looking at over $2.3 billion spent by a government that just cut $9.2 billion from the education budget.

Yeah, that's gonna happen.

 

[KevanG]

That's why you take the money from the military budget which just got a huge boost.

It all works out.

 

[TheCommissioner]

teachers can't get money or deductions for their own school supplies, but lets give them guns?

yeah, that makes a ton of sense

 

[summerteeth]

teachers can't get money or deductions for their own school supplies, but lets give them guns?

yeah, that makes a ton of sense

Get your facts right please.

Lawmakers have decided not to touch a tax deduction for teachers who spend their own money on school supplies

http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/15/pf/taxes/tax-bill-teacher-supplies-deduction/index.html

 

[TheCommissioner]

let me adjust what I said

teachers shouldn't have to spend money out of their own pockets for school supplies, much less NEED a tax deduction for it

I personally know 5 teachers who spend a good chunk of their own money to have the bare minimum in their classrooms (2 are art teachers, so thats an even bigger financial commitment)

so lets give them guns....

 

[squeekness]

teachers can't get money or deductions for their own school supplies, but lets give them guns?

yeah, that makes a ton of sense

I know, right?