The Iran Thread

If it's proven Iran's helping the insurgency kill American troops, do we invade Iran?

  • yes

  • no

  • not sure


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Yeah, I'm starting to think...that America will need to do something.

I'm not quite sure what, but...yeah...
 
Mousavi is Rafsanjani's puppet. People need to spend some time looking over Rafsanjani's background before putting Mousavi on a pedestal.
 
The UN will not do it. Period. The UN is a joke, a failure, a scam and a sham. America, and any other decent country, has the responsibility to take its place in times that action is needed.

If the protests continue, there will be escalation. There will be more blood on the streets. If the military starts to join with the protesters - then America has the ability to come in and take a stand with them as well.

America could denounce the legitimacy of the current government, announce Mousavi the President of Iran and make a deal with him to come in, protect his supporters and work towards him taking control.

Once we do that, though, there is no turning back and we would have to ensure that we are victorious. Period.
But once we get in there...what do we do? We can't just pick one guy and call him the leader - we've already tried that. In Iran. And it didn't work, because we didn't know EVERYTHING that was going on in that country.

Iran is not America. What Iran needs is not what the US thinks it needs. What the Iranian people need is not what other people of the world can decide for them, no matter how much the violence escalates. Sorry for the terrible biology analogy, but it's kind of like trying to give antibiotics for a common cold. It doesn't work - the only thing you can do is support the body as its immune system does its job. In the meantime you have to be sick. It sucks, but that's the only way to recover, and recover properly.

Yes, the French helped the Americans militarily during the American Revolution, but they didn't come in and tell us what to do and how to run our own government. We asked for that kind of help, and knew what was needed. The military even had French and US leaders working together. And yeah, we also kinda had a military. The Iranian civilians don't. In fact, all they have are their numbers. (And also, the French coming over to help us and flip England the bird also bankrupted their own country and may have been a cause of the French Revolution. Are you saying you want the same thing here?)

The Iranian protesters are not asking for American saviors. They are only asking for their voices to be heard by their own government and that their government stop lying to them. The system has to change, and the change required can only begin from the inside out. I think all they are asking of us that we listen, that their voices are heard somewhere, and support them in spirit. If the world is listening, one day their own government will have to.

How is announcing him the President going to change anything. he is part of the establishment and will only help Rahfsanjani gain power.

The system needs to be overhauled not the men replaced within the system.
Exactly.
 
If there one thing people should be grateful for, it's technology. It changes the game so much.
 
If there one thing people should be grateful for, it's technology. It changes the game so much.

true, i cant believe the roll that twitter is playing in this. I hate twitter but for this situation it seems to benefit the world as a whole lol.
 
true, i cant believe the roll that twitter is playing in this. I hate twitter but for this situation it seems to benefit the world as a whole lol.
Not to mention cell phone videos and YouTube. I haven't really been keeping up with what people are Twittering - I checked it out last night and it seemed to be a lot of reTweets.
 
But once we get in there...what do we do? We can't just pick one guy and call him the leader - we've already tried that. In Iran. And it didn't work, because we didn't know EVERYTHING that was going on in that country.

Iran is not America. What Iran needs is not what the US thinks it needs. What the Iranian people need is not what other people of the world can decide for them, no matter how much the violence escalates. Sorry for the terrible biology analogy, but it's kind of like trying to give antibiotics for a common cold. It doesn't work - the only thing you can do is support the body as its immune system does its job. In the meantime you have to be sick. It sucks, but that's the only way to recover, and recover properly.

Yes, the French helped the Americans militarily during the American Revolution, but they didn't come in and tell us what to do and how to run our own government. We asked for that kind of help, and knew what was needed. The military even had French and US leaders working together. And yeah, we also kinda had a military. The Iranian civilians don't. In fact, all they have are their numbers. (And also, the French coming over to help us and flip England the bird also bankrupted their own country and may have been a cause of the French Revolution. Are you saying you want the same thing here?)

The Iranian protesters are not asking for American saviors. They are only asking for their voices to be heard by their own government and that their government stop lying to them. The system has to change, and the change required can only begin from the inside out. I think all they are asking of us that we listen, that their voices are heard somewhere, and support them in spirit. If the world is listening, one day their own government will have to.

Amen to all this. :bow: We already tried removing a tyrannical regime in Iraq and it didn't turn out so well. We've got enough problems as it is and I'd rather just leave Middle Eastern countries alone.
 
true, i cant believe the roll that twitter is playing in this. I hate twitter but for this situation it seems to benefit the world as a whole lol.
I am referring to the convenience of mobile video recording devices. A lot of the Twitter stuff are controlled spam and dis-information. AND yes there is evidence of that, so I am not pulling this out of my butt.
 
I am referring to the convenience of mobile video recording devices. A lot of the Twitter stuff are controlled spam and dis-information. AND yes there is evidence of that, so I am not pulling this out of my butt.

yeah mobile recording devices have brought us a lot of interesting shots and details from whats happening. Im just saying in terms of technology social networking is playing a role here too. PS i believe u about the spam and dis-information, one of the reasons i hate twitter.
 
I am referring to the convenience of mobile video recording devices.
Seeing a non-newsreel clip (i.e., continuous >10 second shot) of occurrences from someone on the ground is so powerful.
 
But once we get in there...what do we do? We can't just pick one guy and call him the leader - we've already tried that. In Iran. And it didn't work, because we didn't know EVERYTHING that was going on in that country.

We didn't pick the one guy - that's what's difference between this and Operation Ajax. The Iranian people did.

Iran is not America. What Iran needs is not what the US thinks it needs. What the Iranian people need is not what other people of the world can decide for them, no matter how much the violence escalates. Sorry for the terrible biology analogy, but it's kind of like trying to give antibiotics for a common cold. It doesn't work - the only thing you can do is support the body as its immune system does its job. In the meantime you have to be sick. It sucks, but that's the only way to recover, and recover properly.

I am in no way advocating America to dictate its will on the Iranian people, we are trying to ensure the will of the Iranian people is listened to. This is not America forcing a Pro-American leader on a country, this would be America supporting the rightful champion of the people's voice.

Yes, the French helped the Americans militarily during the American Revolution, but they didn't come in and tell us what to do and how to run our own government. We asked for that kind of help, and knew what was needed. The military even had French and US leaders working together. And yeah, we also kinda had a military. The Iranian civilians don't. In fact, all they have are their numbers. (And also, the French coming over to help us and flip England the bird also bankrupted their own country and may have been a cause of the French Revolution. Are you saying you want the same thing here?)

And I am not advocating going in without being asked. Tying to paint the French effort in the Revolutionary War to the French Revolution is foolish the constant wars with England (of which the Revolutionary War was only a minute part) combined with the arrogance of the French monarchy is what led to revolution.

Though our government continuing, and increasing, deficit spending against the wishes of the American people COULD, in theory, have a similar result - the Iranian conflict is irrelevant to that.

The Iranian protesters are not asking for American saviors. They are only asking for their voices to be heard by their own government and that their government stop lying to them. The system has to change, and the change required can only begin from the inside out. I think all they are asking of us that we listen, that their voices are heard somewhere, and support them in spirit. If the world is listening, one day their own government will have to.

And having the support of America makes their voice louder. You listen more carefully to a man caring a gun than a man standing on a street corner - if the Iranian people are attacked by their government (which they have been and will continue to be), they will need protection. What better protection for people fighting tyranny than us? This is our purpose in the world - to protect freedom against tyranny.
 
How is announcing him the President going to change anything. he is part of the establishment and will only help Rahfsanjani gain power.

The system needs to be overhauled not the men replaced within the system.

Mousavi is Rafsanjani's puppet. People need to spend some time looking over Rafsanjani's background before putting Mousavi on a pedestal.

I don't care who the Iranian people put in power, as long as they do it and it is not forced by a corrupt, tyrannical system.

I am not trying to paint either Mousavi or Rafsanjani as great guys or tremendous leaders of symbols of a glorious revolution. What I am saying is that the Iranian people have the right to the government of their choosing.

America should not be about changing the Iranian government, it should be about protecting the rights of the Iranian people and their voice in their government. We cannot sit by and watch innocent Iranian's killed for simply standing up against their tyrannical government.
 
Amen to all this. :bow: We already tried removing a tyrannical regime in Iraq and it didn't turn out so well. We've got enough problems as it is and I'd rather just leave Middle Eastern countries alone.

My memory must be messed up. I don't remember the Iraqi people actively fighting Saddam's government in 2003 before we went in.

I must simply be mistaken, though, because if they weren't then your comparison wouldn't be valid.

Also, it's foolish to believe that just because something happens in another country that it doesn't have a direct effect on America. The outcome of this crisis WILL impact American security and American foreign policy not simply with Iran, but Israel. For those of you at home keeping score - that means the outcome directly impacts one of our biggest enemies as well as our most important ally.

But your right, we should just ignore it.
 
I don't care who the Iranian people put in power, as long as they do it and it is not forced by a corrupt, tyrannical system.

I am not trying to paint either Mousavi or Rafsanjani as great guys or tremendous leaders of symbols of a glorious revolution. What I am saying is that the Iranian people have the right to the government of their choosing.

America should not be about changing the Iranian government, it should be about protecting the rights of the Iranian people and their voice in their government. We cannot sit by and watch innocent Iranian's killed for simply standing up against their tyrannical government.
The point is they never had much of a real choice to begin with. Both Mousavi and Ahmajinidad are corrupt. Giving them Mousavi is a waste of time, it changes nothing. All you accomplish is reinforce a fundamentally corrupt system.

Whether this ought to be the case or not, it doesn't matter. The financial situation will not allow it. This is the price you pay when you spend so much. Be it war, stimulus or bailouts.
 
And having the support of America makes their voice louder. You listen more carefully to a man caring a gun than a man standing on a street corner - if the Iranian people are attacked by their government (which they have been and will continue to be), they will need protection. What better protection for people fighting tyranny than us? This is our purpose in the world - to protect freedom against tyranny.
That is our purpose in the world? According to who? America was not made to be the world's police force. IIRC our Constitution says nothing about that. The reason why America was made was to provide a safe haven for those who desired freedom, not spread it throughout the world by marching through it piecemeal.

Iran has a culture that we will never understand. It's one of the oldest civilizations in the history of humankind. It's very difficult for such a place to make changes, and it cannot by done by a country which pretty much started with a clean slate less than 300 years ago.

Also, it's foolish to believe that just because something happens in another country that it doesn't have a direct effect on America. The outcome of this crisis WILL impact American security and American foreign policy not simply with Iran, but Israel. For those of you at home keeping score - that means the outcome directly impacts one of our biggest enemies as well as our most important ally.

But your right, we should just ignore it.
And it's also foolish to assume that America and Iran exist in a vacuum. Someone on another forum pointed out that if our government officially gets involved in Iran, countries like China or Russia may interpret that as a threat to THEIR OWN government and security and way of life. (Just as some people think an unstable Iran is a threat to the US....) And then go to war against us.

Cause if the US goes after Iran and their non-democracy, what's going to stop the US from going after China/Russia and their non-democracy? I mean, sure there aren't any civilian protests going on in China or Russia right now, but such a move by the US can be interpreted however they want. And I assure you, war with the Iranian government will not be pretty, but war with China and/or Russia will be World War III. Period.

Anytime a country gets involved with another country's political matters, it opens up a very big can of worms.
 
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The point is they never had much of a real choice to begin with. Both Mousavi and Ahmajinidad are corrupt. Giving them Mousavi is a waste of time, it changes nothing. All you accomplish is reinforce a fundamentally corrupt system.

Whether this ought to be the case or not, it doesn't matter. The financial situation will not allow it. This is the price you pay when you spend so much. Be it war, stimulus or bailouts.

A choice between the lesser of two evils is STILL a choice, as an American you should understand it.

And I find this to be an opportunity for America to improve relations with Iran. If we help protect the Iranian's ability to elect their leaders, they will remember. If their leadership, not matter how flawed, remembers America helped give them power, it will help America's position with them as well. Considering Rafsanjani is more moderate on American relations than the current leadership, his success is, in effect, our success in Iran.

That is our purpose in the world? According to who? America was not made to be the world's police force. IIRC our Constitution says nothing about that. The reason why America was made was to provide a safe haven for those who desired freedom, not spread it throughout the world by marching through it piecemeal.

The Constitution does not, but another important American document state:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Iran has a culture that we will never understand. It's one of the oldest civilizations in the history of humankind. It's very difficult for such a place to make changes, and it cannot by done by a country which pretty much started with a clean slate less than 300 years ago.

Sure it can. The history of German is great, America was able to change it. The history of Japan is great, America was able to change it. The history of Iran was not any less complex in the 50's, and America was able to successfully change it. Operation Ajax was a tremendous success and had the possibility to be a major victory for America - the problem was the leader we selected. America, during that time, was very short sided - they believed that a leader who was Pro-American was more important than a leader the people could support.

This is what's different now, we wouldn't be forcing a leader on a people - we would simply be securing the people's voice on their government.

And it's also foolish to assume that America and Iran exist in a vacuum.

Where did I assume that?

Someone on another forum pointed out that if our government officially gets involved in Iran, countries like China or Russia may interpret that as a threat to THEIR OWN government and security and way of life.

(Just as some people think an unstable Iran is a threat to the US....) And then go to war against us.

I disagree. As others have pointed out, Mousavi isn't so much a change of the system, but a different product from the same system. China and Russia would be foolish to overreact. America is not trying to change the Iranian government, or infringe on their security and alter their way of life - they are simply trying to ensure that the people's wishes are listened to, that peaceful protesters are protected.

Iran is not comparable to either China or Russia. China and Russia would have no more fear of an American take over after intervention in Iran than they would after Iraq.

Cause if the US goes after Iran and their non-democracy, what's going to stop the US from going after China/Russia and their non-democracy? I mean, sure there aren't any civilian protests going on in China or Russia right now, but such a move by the US can be interpreted however they want. And I assure you, war with the Iranian government will not be pretty, but war with China and/or Russia will be World War III. Period.

Russia has a Democracy. China has no reason to fear American military action because they own America. Again, this is all slippery slope.

Anytime a country gets involved with another country's political matters, it opens up a very big can of worms.

Not when the case is so black and white.
 
The Constitution does not, but another important American document state:
The Declaration of Independence was a list of grievances basically telling England to piss off, not a higher plan for their new proposed country to force onto other countries. Although the beginning of it is beautifully written and very quotable. :cwink:

I disagree. As others have pointed out, Mousavi isn't so much a change of the system, but a different product from the same system. China and Russia would be foolish to overreact. America is not trying to change the Iranian government, or infringe on their security and alter their way of life - they are simply trying to ensure that the people's wishes are listened to, that peaceful protesters are protected.

Iran is not comparable to either China or Russia. China and Russia would have no more fear of an American take over after intervention in Iran than they would after Iraq.
That's what YOU think, but that's certainly not what other people (especially those in power) might think. You can't assume anything.

And I dunno, I think it's rather arrogant for the US government/people to believe they're always doing the right thing for other countries. What makes us better than everyone else, really, besides the freedom of speech that many countries already have? But there's already a term for that assumption. :funny:
 
The Declaration of Independence was a list of grievances basically telling England to piss off, not a higher plan for their new proposed country to force onto other countries. Although the beginning of it is beautifully written and very quotable. :cwink:

I disagree. It was both. Lets look at The Federalist Papers:

It has been frequently remarked that it seems to have been reserved to the people of this country, by their conduct and example, to decide the important question, whether societies of men are really capable or not of establishing good government from reflection and choice, or whether they are forever destined to depend for their political constitutions on accident and force. If there be any truth in the remark, the crisis at which we are arrived may with propriety be regarded as the era in which that decision is to be made; and a wrong election of the part we shall act may, in this view, deserve to be considered as the general misfortune of mankind.

Here Alexander Hamilton, the most important founding father, establishes America as an important experient for MANKIND. Not America, not Europeans, but mankind. The idea that men are free, that our freedoms come from God (or naturally given) and not a government. That is the fundamental idea behind this country and, as such, is not limited to Americans in America.

That's what YOU think, but that's certainly not what other people (especially those in power) might think. You can't assume anything.

And I dunno, I think it's rather arrogant for the US government/people to believe they're always doing the right thing for other countries. What makes us better than everyone else, really, besides the freedom of speech that many countries already have? But there's already a term for that assumption. :funny:
What makes us better than everyone else? Our actions.
 
What Anita is trying describe is best summed up as:

"Wilsonism" or Wilsonian Doctrine

or more accurately (and less known) "Canningism".

Some people gave me flack for naming Woodrow Wilson for one of the worst presidents ever. Perhaps this is a hint as to why I have misgivings towards him (creating the Federal Reserve is not exactly helpful either). It's the whole spread democracy and peace by force paradigm. This is NOT the same thing as Realism.

I will respond later StorminNormin. I have a headache right now. The irony is not lost on me :o
 
I disagree. It was both. Lets look at The Federalist Papers:

Here Alexander Hamilton, the most important founding father, establishes America as an important experience for MANKIND. Not America, not Europeans, but mankind. The idea that men are free, that our freedoms come from God (or naturally given) and not a government. That is the fundamental idea behind this country and, as such, is not limited to Americans in America.
I don't read it as a call to arms for the entire world, I read it as a study as to how the important the birth of the US government was. He wants to lead by "conduct and example" for what is possible. That involves other countries to develop similar strategies for their own government, but by seeing what is possible via the US direction, by "reflection and choice," NOT by "accident and force."

If we go into Iran to tell the Iranian government they're wrong, that's doing it by force.

What makes us better than everyone else? Our actions.
And who decides without bias if our actions are good? Us? :funny:
 
I don't read it as a call to arms for the entire world, I read it as a study as to how the important the birth of the US government was. He wants to lead by "conduct and example" for what is possible. That involves other countries to develop similar strategies for their own government, but by seeing what is possible via the US direction, by "reflection and choice," NOT by "accident and force."

The reason it wasn't a call to arms for the entire world is because The Federalist Papers were written for a specific time. They were not meant to establish government policy for the future, only demonstrate the intentions of the governments establishment by the founders of it. When Hamilton wrote this, America lacked a Navy, and there was debate about whether the government should have a standing army.

The Iranian people are asking for the same thing the American colonials were, a voice in government and freedom from tyranny.

If America was meant to be a beacon of freedom for mankind, as Hamilton wrote it as, then we are betraying our purpose in the world when we sit by and allow this injustice to happen.

If we go into Iran to tell the Iranian government they're wrong, that's doing it by force.

We would not go into Iran on the offensive, it would be defensive - protection of protesters.

Again, this is not America coming unannounced and laying down the law. This is America watching INNOCENT PEOPLE SLAUGHTERED for no crime but speaking out against injustice.

This should not be foolishly mislabeled as a possible offensive action - it is, and can only be seen as a defensive measure. Defense of Iranians.


And who decides without bias if our actions are good? Us? :funny:

Rational individuals. I have no natural bias towards America, my love of America comes from it's actions and it's history - not because it is my place of birth. I went through a period where I questioned America's moral superiority. I saw a history of Indian genocide, of Japanese imprisonment, of slavery.

But the mistakes, no matter how egregious, does not dismiss the wonder and good we have done in the world.

Anyone who has to question America's moral superiority to Iran isn't worth discussing with. Trying to reason with an irrational person is insanity.
 
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