The Iran Thread

[Tron5000]

Our foreign policy has largely aided in fueling this fundamentalist "destroy the western world" mentality of terrorists. I'm not quite sure how you can deny that Zenile.

I thought it was the part of the Koran that talks about killing the infidels and not being satisfied until the entire world is under Muslim rule, as well as the mosques that teach that being a martyr is the highest honor one can attain before meeting one's 72 virgins.

Sorry, I'm not willing to accept any responsibility for 9/11. None. Not at all. Zero.

Our chickens did not "come home to roost." We didn't bring about 9/11. Radical Islamic jihadists did. And we're lucky there has yet to be another attack of that magnitude on this great nation.

 

[Marx]

I thought it was the part of the Koran that talks about killing the infidels and not being satisfied until the entire world is under Muslim rule, as well as the mosques that teach that being a martyr is the highest honor one can attain before meeting one's 72 virgins.

Sorry, I'm not willing to accept any responsibility for 9/11. None. Not at all. Zero.

We didn't being about 9/11. Radical Islamic jihadists did. And we're lucky there has yet to be another attack of that magnitude on this great nation.

There are teachings in the Koran that suggest that. I'm just saying that our foreign policy doesn't help matters any.

 

[zenile]

I base my argument on the fact that terrorists have been attacking the US prior to GWB's administration (USS Cole, 1993 World Trade Center bombings).

 

[Marx]

I base my argument on the fact that terrorists have been attacking the US prior to GWB's administration (USS Cole, 1993 World Trade Center bombings).

I'm not pinning this on the Bush Administration. I'm talking about our foreign policy as a whole has largely been "police the world." And that doesn't help calm tensions around the world.

 

[Tron5000]

I'm not pinning this on the Bush Administration. I'm talking about our foreign policy as a whole has largely been "police the world." And that doesn't help calm tensions around the world.

Well, unfortunately, the world needs police. The UN is a hapless group composed of America-hating nations and despotic, tyrannical dictators. They sure aren't about to do anything worthwhile.

So when the dust gets kicked up and someone needs to step in, who should it be? As in the Iran predicament: They are working toward nuclear weapons. Should the US just leave them to their own devices and hope for the best, or should someone step in and "police" the situation?

The US has always been needed to "police" outrageous behavior in the world. Were it not for the US during WWII, the world today would barely resemble that which we currently see.

If the US does not "police the world," then who will? Who can we count on to not allow tyrannical regimes to take over the world? If not us, then who?

 

[Arc-Light]

Well, unfortunately, the world needs police. The UN is a hapless group composed of America-hating nations and despotic, tyrannical dictators. They sure aren't about to do anything worthwhile.

So when the dust gets kicked up and someone needs to step in, who should it be? As in the Iran predicament: They are working toward nuclear weapons. Should the US just leave them to their own devices and hope for the best, or should someone step in and "police" the situation?

The US has always been needed to "police" outrageous behavior in the world. Were it not for the US during WWII, the world today would barely resemble that which we currently see.

If the US does not "police the world," then who will? Who can we count on to not allow tyrannical regimes to take over the world? If not us, then who?

The above quote is a prime example of the mentality that myself and TheMarx are talking about, thank you for bringing that point home Tron...think on this...POLICE THE WORLD IS ACTING TYRANNICAL TO THE REST OF THE WORLD.....it is sad that you and most republicans cant see that.

 

[hippie_hunter]

There are times when police actions are necessary like what happened between Serbia and Kosovo. The Darfur requires policing. Rwanda required policing.

There's a difference between using police actions wisely and overdoing it.

 

[Tron5000]

The above quote is a prime example of the mentality that myself and TheMarx are talking about, thank you for bringing that point home Tron...think on this...POLICE THE WORLD IS ACTING TYRANNICAL TO THE REST OF THE WORLD.....it is sad that you and most republicans cant see that.

Who do you propose should act as the policing agent of the world? Do you think other (terrorist-sponsoring) nations should be left to their own devices until the point that hundreds of thousands are killed with a nuclear device? Do you think it is the job of the UN to ensure that tyrannical dictators do not realize their goals of wiping entire nations off the map? Nations that deny the Holocaust while simultaneously seeking to effect another one?

These are actual questions that I am asking you. Please do not reply with a comment about my "mentality."

 

[Arc-Light]

Who do you propose should act as the policing agent of the world? Do you think other (terrorist-sponsoring) nations should be left to their own devices until the point that hundreds of thousands are killed with a nuclear device? Do you think it is the job of the UN to ensure that tyrannical dictators do not realize their goals of wiping entire nations off the map? Nations that deny the Holocaust while simultaneously seeking to effect another one?

These are actual questions that I am asking you. Please do not reply with a comment about my "mentality."

No one should be policing the world, where is it is says we should be. This world is to diverse for one country to do it all, the rest of the world sees imperialism instead of help. These so called terrorist countries know not to cross certain boundaries, and trust me they know not to go to far, they aren't stupid. They saw what happened to the Taliban. I think it is the job of those countries and its people in that region of the world to do the work, or the U.N. I am sorry but your deep into the fear propaganda machine the Bush administration has been spewing for years. Iran or whoever knows the repercussions if nukes are involved in anything happened in the USA or anywhere else, We would wipe them off the face of the earth, AND THEY KNOW THAT. These people might act tough, but they aren't stupid enough to piss off the big kid on the block.

 

[Tron5000]

No one should be policing the world, where is it is says we should be. This world is to diverse for one country to do it all, the rest of the world sees imperialism instead of help. These so called terrorist countries know not to cross certain boundaries, and trust me they know not to go to far, they aren't stupid. They saw what happened to the Taliban. I think it is the job of those countries and its people in that region of the world to do the work, or the U.N. I am sorry but your deep into the fear propaganda machine the Bush administration has been spewing for years. Iran or whoever knows the repercussions if nukes are involved in anything happened in the USA or anywhere else, We would wipe them off the face of the earth, AND THEY KNOW THAT. These people might act tough, but they aren't stupid enough to piss off the big kid on the block.

And what makes these nations feel that way? The police power of the USA.

Yes, we would wipe them off the face of the Earth. That is because we have the capability and rationality.

So how do you contend the fact that we are acting as a deterrent to Iran, yet also claiming that we should not be acting as the police agent that is necessary to do so?

 

[Arc-Light]

And what makes these nations feel that way? The police power of the USA.

You need to get out more, i hear it all the time in my travels.

Yes, we would wipe them off the face of the Earth. That is because we have the capability and rationality.

So how do you contend the fact that we are acting as a deterrent to Iran, yet also claiming that we should not be acting as the police agent that is necessary to do so?[/quote]

The deterrent is common sense, they know what lines not to cross.

 

[Tron5000]

And what makes these nations feel that way? The police power of the USA.

You need to get out more, i hear it all the time in my travels.

Yes, we would wipe them off the face of the Earth. That is because we have the capability and rationality.

So how do you contend the fact that we are acting as a deterrent to Iran, yet also claiming that we should not be acting as the police agent that is necessary to do so?[/quote]

The deterrent is common sense, they know what lines not to cross.

Thanks for informing me that I "need to get out more." You know, since you are aware of how often I "get out," and stuff.

So you believe that a man who denies the Holocaust whllle seekiing to effect another one just needs to be reasoned with? What "common sense" would you use to appeal to Ahmadinejad?

 

[Arc-Light]

Thanks for informing me that I "need to get out more." You know, since you are aware of how often I "get out," and stuff.

Your welcome....

So you believe that a man who denies the Holocaust whllle seekiing to effect another one just needs to be reasoned with? What "common sense" would you use to appeal to Ahmadinejad?

Appeal, why do we need to appeal to him, just use the proper diplomatic processes with Iran. What do you think a bomb dropped in his backyard by one of our planes will change the way he and some of the people in power think.....nope. I hate repeating myself, but no matter how backward and wrong, or how tough they act, they still will use common sense. Seeking to effect another one is more the fear propaganda.

 

[EdRyder]

Forgive me but, I feel the need to address this notion of Iran being a push over.
You are aware that Iran has a fairly formidable airforce? As well as a good number of enlisted men?(trained soldiers btw, not the kind that dont know how to do jumping jacks right, or that will dress up as women on day two)
Dont get me wrong ,they dont have nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers but , they aren't Iraq either.

 

[Arc-Light]

Forgive me but, I feel the need to address this notion of Iran being a push over.
You are aware that Iran has a fairly formidable airforce? As well as a good number of enlisted men?(trained soldiers btw, not the kind that dont know how to do jumping jacks right, or that will dress up as women on day two)
Dont get me wrong ,they dont have nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers but , they aren't Iraq either.

True....but i wasn't talking about a up-front war...you are also forgetting Iraq was the best in the middle east, until well you know.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Forgive me but, I feel the need to address this notion of Iran being a push over.
You are aware that Iran has a fairly formidable airforce? As well as a good number of enlisted men?(trained soldiers btw, not the kind that dont know how to do jumping jacks right, or that will dress up as women on day two)
Dont get me wrong ,they dont have nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers but , they aren't Iraq either.

Actually before the original gulf war Iraq was a fairly decent military power, equal to Iran, and they got slaughtered. Traditional forces unless outfitted with the very best equiptment really can't do much against surgical airstrikes and long range bombardments.

I'm not saying "hey let's go attack Iran", that would be incredibly stupid and I don't really believe this story at all, but I just wanted to address the whole Iran's a real army while Iraq isn't, because before Operation Desert Storm Iraq was every bit as dangerous (and considerably bigger) than Iran.

 

[Tron5000]

Appeal, why do we need to appeal to him, just use the proper diplomatic processes with Iran. What do you think a bomb dropped in his backyard by one of our planes will change the way he and some of the people in power think.....nope. I hate repeating myself, but no matter how backward and wrong, or how tough they act, they still will use common sense. Seeking to effect another one is more the fear propaganda.

So when Ahmadinejad continues to advance his nuclear program (against UN warnings) and publicly states on a number of occasions that Israel should be wiped away, we should just let them be, because "they will still use common sense"? How does the term "common sense" at all apply to a man who denies the Holocaust and calls Jews "pigs"?

And if we do strike Iran in August, it won't be the first hit. It will be backing up Israeli forces, which absolutely will not allow Iran to have The Bomb.

I'm more worried about Iran developing The Bomb and selling the technology to terrorist groups (al-Qaeda, Hezbollah) than The Bomb actually being used by the Iranian military. We can not allow that to happen. If we allow Iran to continue to their own devices unchecked, we will be allowing a Nuclear Holocaust to occur. Such will be the case, unless someone prevents that from happening. There are 2 countries in the world willing to step in and accept that role: Us and Israel.

You think the US should not "police the world." I shudder to think where this world would be without the military might of the US. Without the US, Hitler and Tojo would not have been stopped. North Korea and Libya would still be developing nuclear technology. Saddam Hussein would still be in power. The list goes on and on and on.

 

[EdRyder]

Actually before the original gulf war Iraq was a fairly decent military power, equal to Iran, and they got slaughtered.

Im sorry but I just cant agree at all.Certainly they werent the millitary power they were before Desert Storm but even then I wouldnt of placed Iraq in my top five.
You can stack them up yourself http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/index.html

 

[moraldeficiency]

Im sorry but I just cant agree at all.Certainly they werent the millitary power they were before Desert Storm but even then I wouldnt of placed Iraq in my top five.
You can stack them up yourself http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/index.html

Yeah that shows current Iraq which has nothing near what pre desert storm Iraq has. I was part of that decimation so I know firsthand. At that time the Iraqi's had far more tanks, an appropriate air force not to mention lots of AAA batteries and was in the top ten in enlisted and trained ground troops (in terms of size) they were a threat equal to or slightly better than Iran depending on which strafor report you read. They might not have been in your top five but realistically neither Iran nor Iraq should figure into your top ten for military powers, especially since their production capabilities are in no way capable of sustaining any traditional military campaign outside of guerilla warfare.

Right now they aren't anything nearly what they once were (people forget just how much decimation we had already done to Iraq before all this even started), so I agree but a standard war against a standard ground/air/naval force would have the US crushing the Iranians in a couple months in terms of military power. Occupation; however, is as always a far far different story.

 

[Zen]

Im sorry but I just cant agree at all.Certainly they werent the millitary power they were before Desert Storm but even then I wouldnt of placed Iraq in my top five.
You can stack them up yourself http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/index.html

in your top 5 of what?

Iran and Iraq were similar militarily.

and we obliterated Iraqs forces. the same would happen with Iran... it would be over in 2 weeks. thats not occupation, thats destroying military capacity.

of course after such an action we would be bathed in terrorism for the next 100 years, so theres always that side-effect of such a wild and great plan.


EDIT... im going to defer to MMoralDeficiency in months rather then weeks, cause i never served, but none the less

 

[EdRyder]

Right now they aren't anything nearly what they once were (people forget just how much decimation we had already done to Iraq before all this even started), so I agree but a standard war against a standard ground/air/naval force would have the US crushing the Iranians in a couple months in terms of military power. Occupation; however, is as always a far far different story.

When I say top five, thats just in terms of the middle east.No I did not forget that we were still bombing their air fields since Desert Storm.They had no air force to speak of this round.
I have no doubt that we would crush them.Sort of goes back to my point many threads ago of this being Isreals problem(who would also crush Iran)But thats not the point Im trying to make here.Its no "slam dunk"

 

[EdRyder]

in your top 5 of what?

Iran and Iraq were similar militarily.

As I just said 1:Top five middle east(including our allies)
2:No, they werent.Thats not what the facts reflect at all.

 

[moraldeficiency]

When I say top five, thats just in terms of the middle east.No I did not forget that we were still bombing their air fields since Desert Storm.They had no air force to speak of this round.
I have no doubt that we would crush them.Sort of goes back to my point many threads ago of this being Isreals problem(who would also crush Iran)But thats not the point Im trying to make here.Its no "slam dunk"

Sorry, didn't get that we were just talking the middle east, they would count in those senarios. That said, we'd still crush their conventional forces with ease and they have no chance at renewable strategic resources or the productional capabilites to sustain combat in any form. Basically after the strategic airstrikes take out their airfields and AAA batteries they'd have nothing to fall back on and their ground forces don't have the armor to make a run of it especially without air cover. They'd be destroyed with reletive ease, we just couldn't sustain an occupation. In terms of conventional warfare they don't hold up in any way as a defensive structure, too exposed and with too many enemy resources within easy strike distance.

But to get back to my original thought, why is anyone even believing these rumors?

 

[Arc-Light]

So when Ahmadinejad continues to advance his nuclear program (against UN warnings) and publicly states on a number of occasions that Israel should be wiped away, we should just let them be, because "they will still use common sense"? How does the term "common sense" at all apply to a man who denies the Holocaust and calls Jews "pigs"?

----He is all talk...he wont attack Israeli he is only saying crap like that to impress the hard-liners, why are you so freaking scared......

And if we do strike Iran in August, it won't be the first hit. It will be backing up Israeli forces, which absolutely will not allow Iran to have The Bomb.

-----If Israeli gets involved, then every country in the middle east will be against us.....it would be very bad if Israeli is involved in any military action.


I'm more worried about Iran developing The Bomb and selling the technology to terrorist groups (al-Qaeda, Hezbollah) than The Bomb actually being used by the Iranian military. We can not allow that to happen. If we allow Iran to continue to their own devices unchecked, we will be allowing a Nuclear Holocaust to occur. Such will be the case, unless someone prevents that from happening. There are 2 countries in the world willing to step in and accept that role: Us and Israel.

-----Are you reading my responses, how many times have i said THEY WONT ALLOW THAT...they know the consequences if we or anybody else finds out they were involved...it would be total annihilation of their country and they know we have that power.


You think the US should not "police the world." I shudder to think where this world would be without the military might of the US. Without the US, Hitler and Tojo would not have been stopped. North Korea and Libya would still be developing nuclear technology. Saddam Hussein would still be in power. The list goes on and on and on.

----What a fascist thought....the world will always have such men there is nothing we can do about it, like there will always be terrorism. Hitler was the last true threat to the USA and WW2 was the last true war, North Korea, Libya, Saddam Hussein were never a threat. I would hate to be living in a world of fear like you seem to be in. I know there are threats, but give me a break the world will not end when a dumba$$ says something bad about Israeli.

 

[Tron5000]

So when Ahmadinejad continues to advance his nuclear program (against UN warnings) and publicly states on a number of occasions that Israel should be wiped away, we should just let them be, because "they will still use common sense"? How does the term "common sense" at all apply to a man who denies the Holocaust and calls Jews "pigs"?

----He is all talk...he wont attack Israeli he is only saying crap like that to impress the hard-liners, why are you so freaking scared......

And if we do strike Iran in August, it won't be the first hit. It will be backing up Israeli forces, which absolutely will not allow Iran to have The Bomb.

-----If Israeli gets involved, then every country in the middle east will be against us.....it would be very bad if Israeli is involved in any military action.


I'm more worried about Iran developing The Bomb and selling the technology to terrorist groups (al-Qaeda, Hezbollah) than The Bomb actually being used by the Iranian military. We can not allow that to happen. If we allow Iran to continue to their own devices unchecked, we will be allowing a Nuclear Holocaust to occur. Such will be the case, unless someone prevents that from happening. There are 2 countries in the world willing to step in and accept that role: Us and Israel.

-----Are you reading my responses, how many times have i said THEY WONT ALLOW THAT...they know the consequences if we or anybody else finds out they were involved...it would be total annihilation of their country and they know we have that power.


You think the US should not "police the world." I shudder to think where this world would be without the military might of the US. Without the US, Hitler and Tojo would not have been stopped. North Korea and Libya would still be developing nuclear technology. Saddam Hussein would still be in power. The list goes on and on and on.

----What a fascist thought....the world will always have such men there is nothing we can do about it, like there will always be terrorism. Hitler was the last true threat to the USA and WW2 was the last true war, North Korea, Libya Saddam Hussein were never a threat. I would hate to be living in a world of fear like you seem to be in. I know there are threats, but give me a break the world will not end when a dumba$$ says something bad about Israeli.

No, but the end may begin when Iran explodes a nuke on Israeli soil.