The Jared Leto is The Joker(?) Thread

[The Joker]

Does anyone ever consider that they cut a lot of his scenes because they weren't impressed with how he turned out?

It would be very easy to believe that given how poor the character was in the SS movie, but apparently they cut out several of his scenes because of the violence factor upsetting some test audiences, which is frankly ridiculous. Both previous movie Jokers got to be violent, especially Ledger.

 

[-JKR-]

Unfortunately, Warner Bros. got cold feet after the complaints re. Batman V Superman. On-line moaners are to blame here.

 

[The Joker]

Hardly. Obviously complaints about BvS were not confined to 'on-line moaners'. If on-line complaints was all it took to get WB to make changes, I'd be more hopeful that Letoker will be ditching the ugly tattoos and pimp daddy gangster look.

The only ones to blame are WB themselves for consistently making bad creative choices.

 

[-JKR-]

Well, for me the bad creative choices from Warner Bros. have been cutting out the wrong scenes for the theatrical cut of Batman V Superman and tinkering with David Ayer's vision for Suicide Squad.

 

[Guts]

I think Suicide Squad could have gotten a better reception if WB didn't mess with it but I doubt the same would happen if the full cut of BvS was released. Mainly because it's an R rated Superman movie.

 

[-JKR-]

I think Suicide Squad could have gotten a better reception if WB didn't mess with it but I doubt the same would happen if the full cut of BvS was released. Mainly because it's an R rated Superman movie.

They could've still cut out the elements which made Batman V Superman R-rated, and even some of the additional stuff, in order to make it work for a theatrical version.

I'm still hoping for David Ayer & Co. to change their minds, and deliver a Director's Cut for Suicide Squad in the vein of Blade Runner, but hey... I doubt it.

 

[Wildcard]

Does anyone ever consider that they cut a lot of his scenes because they weren't impressed with how he turned out?

That's certainly not the case when it's confirmed they got cold feet on the abuse he inflicts upon Harley. I firmly believe there's a great performance there...it just got hacked to hell.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Hardly. Obviously complaints about BvS were not confined to 'on-line moaners'. If on-line complaints was all it took to get WB to make changes, I'd be more hopeful that Letoker will be ditching the ugly tattoos and pimp daddy gangster look.

The only ones to blame are WB themselves for consistently making bad creative choices.

The complaints about BvS were not limited to the usual suspects online. The complaints about Leto's Joker and the direction they took with him were for the most part. So I wouldn't get my hopes up, if I were you.

Joker fits right in with today's modern "gangsta" world, I don't think I'll ever understand the loathing he gets from certain segments of the fanbase.

 

[The Joker]

The complaints about BvS were not limited to the usual suspects online. The complaints about Leto's Joker and the direction they took with him were for the most part. So I wouldn't get my hopes up, if I were you.

Oh I'm not. When it comes to hopes for the DCEU, expectations are always rock bottom. However I'd argue the complaints about Joker's look were not as widespread because he was such a brief non entity in the movie. Plus the movie had much bigger problems.

Joker fits right in with today's modern "gangsta" world, I don't think I'll ever understand the loathing he gets from certain segments of the fanbase.

I'll never understand the argument that because we have some modern gangsters looking like tatooed covered pimp daddys in bling bling jewellry, that makes it a good idea to redesign a classic character, who already has an effective design that works so well in the modern world, into such an eye sore that is the antithesis of his look.

The likes of Penguin and Two Face have huge gangster elements to their characters, too. Does that mean they should be dripping in tattoos and jewellry as well?

 

[Artorias]

Does anyone ever consider that they cut a lot of his scenes because they weren't impressed with how he turned out?

Charles Roven basically said some of Leto's stuff worked, some didn't, but I hardly trust him with anything DCEU anymore, the sooner he is gone the better.

I'm calling it now. I think the Joker will have a small-ish role in the movie, but be a big presence in the showdown. Just a little gut feeling I have. I imagine him in a similar role as in Under the Red Hood and Mask of the Phantasm.

I would love, LOVE if Deathstroke while obviously an important character in the movie, is a massive smokescreen. Joker is secretly the main villain and they leave him out of all the promotional material, keep him out of all of the trailers, keep his presence in the movie completely secret until it comes out. Unfortunately in this day and age with the internet and everything something like this would incredibly hard to keep under wraps.

Anyway I hope someone asks Ben about Joker soon. It would be nice to get an indication or even just a little tease on what direction this character is heading. The Robin suit in BvS, the chase in Suicide Squad, they have teased the hell out of us, these characters obviously have history, to not give us that big showdown on screen would be really disappointing.

 

[Boom]

Well if they cut the stuff that "didn't work," and that comprised most of his scenes, then that's sort of disconcerting.

 

[Wildcard]

Oh I'm not. When it comes to hopes for the DCEU, expectations are always rock bottom. However I'd argue the complaints about Joker's look were not as widespread because he was such a brief non entity in the movie. Plus the movie had much bigger problems.



I'll never understand the argument that because we have some modern gangsters looking like tatooed covered pimp daddys in bling bling jewellry, that makes it a good idea to redesign a classic character, who already has an effective design that works so well in the modern world, into such an eye sore that is the antithesis of his look.

The likes of Penguin and Two Face have huge gangster elements to their characters, too. Does that mean they should be dripping in tattoos and jewellry as well?

The Joker's look is ALWAYS drastically changing. This is a character who's already been depicted as having a back dragon tattoo anyway. A character who, normally scrawny, was beefed up to practically be in better shape than even Batman in TDKR, one of Batman's best stories. A character who, in The Batman, a very successful show, was one of its biggest pieces of said show & his design was substantially different from what we normally see: dreadlocks and an almost 100% different wardrobe. Ledger's Joker....no perma-white, just make-up.

You've had female Jokers, pirate Jokers, faceless Jokers....I could go on and on.

My point is, why with all of this, are you complaining so vehemently about tattoos and metal caps of all things? There are so many things that have been done to his appearance that tattoos and grillz are the least likely to bother me at this point.

He has a different look...so what? He's still the damn Joker.

 

[The Joker]

The Joker's look is ALWAYS drastically changing.

No its not. The only drastic changes to Joker's look has been the likes of Death of the Family where he's wearing coveralls and his face is cut off and hanging rotting like a Leatherface mask. When a character has been around since 1940, once in a while you get an artist who draws him ugly as sin, or totally off in some way. I mean do you want see Joker with a chin like this;

This is a character who's already been depicted as having a back dragon tattoo anyway.

In a limited elseworlds comic book series that got dropped after a handful of issues, that had a Batman so screwed up that he was forcing child Dick Grayson to eat rats. Does that mean they should go that way for the movies with Batman?

A character who, normally scrawny, was beefed up to practically be in better shape than even Batman in TDKR, one of Batman's best stories.

What are you talking about? Joker was in a catatonic state for 10 years in DKR in Batman's absence, and was not portrayed as beefed up as Batman.

A character who, in The Batman, a very successful show, was one of its biggest pieces of said show & his design was substantially different from what we normally see: dreadlocks and an almost 100% different wardrobe. Ledger's Joker....no perma-white, just make-up.

What rock have you been living under? That Joker design is regarded as one of the worst, if not the worst Joker designs ever. Show me proof where there is any kind of notable fan base for that hideous design. Its the only other Joker look more unpopular than Letoker's.

You've had female Jokers, pirate Jokers, faceless Jokers....I could go on and on.

We've had rainbow Batman costumes, zebra Batman costumes, red and yellow Batman costumes etc. That doesn't mean they are good or should be done in a movie.

My point is, why with all of this, are you complaining so vehemently about tattoos and metal caps of all things? There are so many things that have been done to his appearance that tattoos and grillz are the least likely to bother me at this point.

Yeah, they don't bother you. You speak for you. No offense but your opinions are not universal and don't speak for the rest of us.

He has a different look...so what?

Its an ugly look, and the antithesis of his character. That's what.

He's still the damn Joker.

Even that's debateable. I don't know any Joker who has Harley at the center of his universe, and moves heaven and earth to find her just because he misses her. He was a whipped love sick pathetic excuse of a Joker. They even said Harley was more crazy and dangerous than Joker was!

Even if he wasn't characterized this badly, the look would still be terrible. An awful look is not justified just because they get the characterization right. Just like a good look doesn't justify a bad characterization.

I think the character needs a total overhaul. From design to characterization. Not holding my breath that they'll do it though. I think he also needs to work on his laugh. He sounds like a dying donkey in some scenes, especially the one when he's lying on the floor with the guns all around him.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Oh I'm not. When it comes to hopes for the DCEU, expectations are always rock bottom. However I'd argue the complaints about Joker's look were not as widespread because he was such a brief non entity in the movie. Plus the movie had much bigger problems.



I'll never understand the argument that because we have some modern gangsters looking like tatooed covered pimp daddys in bling bling jewellry, that makes it a good idea to redesign a classic character, who already has an effective design that works so well in the modern world, into such an eye sore that is the antithesis of his look.

The likes of Penguin and Two Face have huge gangster elements to their characters, too. Does that mean they should be dripping in tattoos and jewellry as well?

Redesigning Joker as a "Gangsta" is in my eyes no different from redesigning him as a mobster or a hobo terrorist in makeup. Penguin and Two-Face are both more traditional mob bosses, hence the "gangsta" look wouldn't work for them. But it does work for Joker, because that's where he would fit in a real world crime scenario. It also helps contrast in conflicts between him and "old breed" mobsters.

 

[The Joker]

Redesigning Joker as a "Gangsta" is in my eyes no different from redesigning him as a mobster or a hobo terrorist in makeup.

I don't understand how. He was still a classic purple suit wearing Joker. He was still evoking the classic Joker garb. He wasn't trading in his clowny image for gold pimp jackets, boring white shirts, bling bling jewellry etc. And his terrorist acts are all from the comics. His main plot was pure Killing Joke. There's nothing he did in TDK that is not in character in the comics. That is a fact. Here read this;

http://jokerfans.blogspot.ie/

Then tell me if you can name half as many similarities as that between comic book Joker and Letoker.

Penguin and Two-Face are both more traditional mob bosses, hence the "gangsta" look wouldn't work for them. But it does work for Joker, because that's where he would fit in a real world crime scenario.

How are they more traditional mob bosses? Letoker was running a freakin' nightclub. What major Batman villain is infamous as a nightclub owner in the comics? That's right, The Penguin.

It also helps contrast in conflicts between him and "old breed" mobsters.

Such a contrast is totally unnecessary, not to mention the Joker is the last character who should be doing that.

 

[Wildcard]

Leto's Joker (I've said this a million times) is almost exactly like Azzarello's iteration, who is more focused on regaining his strange hold on Gotham more so than outright chaos. And Leto himself stated he was mostly inspired by said interpretation. The same Joker who visited nightclubs, even skinning a man alive inside of one.

So, I ask again, how exactly was what we saw with Leto's Joker out of character, again? Or oh so drastically different outside of the tattoos and metal caps on his broken teeth?

Oh yeah, and in that same book the Joker genuinely cries to Harley Quinn. He's crying while holding her. How's that any different from or worse than Leto's Joker (who didn't ever do that) wanting to reclaim what's his by getting her away from the squad and thus serving his purposes as opposed to theirs?

In fact, I feel like that's not even a valid complaint when you know that wasn't originally how the relationship was going to be portrayed and that it was all cut down last minute.

 

[The Joker]

Leto's Joker (I've said this a million times) is almost exactly like Azzarello's iteration, who is more focused on regaining his strange hold on Gotham more so than outright chaos. And Leto himself stated he was mostly inspired by said interpretation. The same Joker who visited nightclubs, even skinning a man alive inside of one.

So, I ask again, how exactly was what we saw with Leto out of character, again? Or oh so drastically different outside of the tattoos and metal caps on his broken teeth?

Leto's Joker is nothing like Azzarello's version. Not visually or character wise. Letoker didn't give a flying fig about regaining territory or anything even remotely related to the Joker's activities in that out of continuity elseworld Azarello GN. His sole concern was getting his beloved Harley back.

Oh yeah, and in that same book the Joker genuinely cries to Harley Quinn. He's crying while holding her. How's that any different from or worse than Leto's Joker (who didn't ever do that) wanting to reclaim what's his by getting her away from the squad and thus serving his purposes as opposed to theirs?

How the heck do you equate him crying to Harley (about something that wasn't even to do with her) in one single panel of that comic as her being the most important thing in the world to him that he would devote all his time and energy to getting her back because he misses her? Seriously explain that to me. In fact name one single comic book where Joker ever wanted Harley back simply because he missed her.

The Joker shows more interest and affection for his hench guy Johnny Frost than he does for Harley in that story. She's practically a nonentity in it.

In fact, I feel like that's not even a valid complaint when you know that wasn't originally how the relationship was going to be portrayed and that it was all cut down last minute.

Of course it's a valid complaint. Why should it matter what they were originally going to do? What they put into the movie is all that counts. Not what got scrapped. If we started counting what was originally planned for movies as being valid then the stories and characters would be changing radically.

 

[Victarion]

This movie title...reminds me of Dreadlock Joker. Maybe that means we're getting a Joker with dreads and no shoes. :P

Speaking of that animated iteration of Batman, kinda crazy how close the cartoon's Clayface origin was to Nolan's Two-Face origin.

 

[Wildcard]

Leto's Joker is nothing like Azzarello's version. Not visually or character wise. Letoker didn't give a flying fig about regaining territory or anything even remotely related to the Joker's activities in that out of continuity elseworld Azarello GN. His sole concern was getting his beloved Harley back.

Clearly missed my point entirely. I didn't say their motives in their respective stories were the same, the aesthetic was. Azarello's Joker was a flat out mob boss who did hang out in places like nightclubs/strip clubs & did similar things to what Leto's Joker did.

To deny that really shows you have an almost unhealthy level of hate for Leto's Joker. Also shows I'm very much wasting my time here.

How the heck do you equate him crying to Harley (about something that wasn't even to do with her) in one single panel of that comic as her being the most important thing in the world to him that he would devote all his time and energy to getting her back because he misses her? Seriously explain that to me. In fact name one single comic book where Joker ever wanted Harley back simply because he missed her.

The point (which you so greatly managed to miss, again) is that he was affectionate with her, even if it was for a very brief second. It matters little if the incident had nothing to do with her. The way I see it, Leto's Joker wanted Harley back because he views her as his property, his creation, a quasi-extension of himself. Not because he genuinely missed her. That wasn't what I was getting at at all.

 

[Brother Jack]

I'm not a fan of Azzarello's Joker. He took away a lot of the character's defining characteristics and made him more of your average psychotic serial killer and gangster. The Joker is those things to an extent, but he's also much more than that. So Leto taking a page from that version is not a good thing in my book. Just because something comes from a comic doesn't mean it can't suck.

 

[The Joker]

This movie title...reminds me of Dreadlock Joker. Maybe that means we're getting a Joker with dreads and no shoes. :P

Oh man, that's the only Joker look that is uglier than Letoker's lol.

Clearly missed my point entirely. I didn't say their motives in their respective stories were the same, the aesthetic was. Azarello's Joker was a flat out mob boss who did hang out in places like nightclubs/strip clubs & did similar things to what Leto's Joker did.

I think anyone would miss that point if you are seriously suggesting he was aesthetically the same. He looked more like Heath Ledger's Joker than he did Letoker.

There's a huge difference between hanging out in a strip club, and actually owning one, which doesn't even make sense. Joker owning a public business of any kind makes him a ripe target to be picked up easily by the law. At least with The penguin it makes sense because Cobblepot is clean in the law's eyes and Batman can never get the dirt on him to jail him.

I'm very much wasting my time here.

First thing we've agreed on.

The point (which you so greatly managed to miss, again) is that he was affectionate with her, even if it was for a very brief second. It matters little if the incident had nothing to do with her. The way I see it, Leto's Joker wanted Harley back because he views her as his property, his creation, a quasi-extension of himself. Not because he genuinely missed her. That wasn't what I was getting at at all.

No offense but your points are so greatly missed because you do a poor job of making them clear. You can choose to view Letoker's relationship with Harley any way you wish, but the movie makes it clear he wants her back because he geuinely misses her. He is depressed when she is not around and they can't find her. He has a romantic venue planned for them when he gets her back in the helicopter scene.

It flies in the face of their relationship. Harley doesn't register on Joker's radar unless he needs her for something, or she has something he wants. This encapsulates the truth about their relationship;

It wasn't just Joker's perspective on this relationship they messed up. Harley's too. When she has that dream about what she wants the most, she envisions having normal looking children, with a handsome normal Jared Leto, in a normal looking home. Which implies Harley would rather be normal, and doesn't love the Joker exactly the way he is. This is the type of dream she should be having;

They just got the whole Joker/Harley dynamic wrong.

 

[CaptainWagner]

I don't understand how. He was still a classic purple suit wearing Joker. He was still evoking the classic Joker garb. He wasn't trading in his clowny image for gold pimp jackets, boring white shirts, bling bling jewellry etc. And his terrorist acts are all from the comics. His main plot was pure Killing Joke. There's nothing he did in TDK that is not in character in the comics. That is a fact. Here read this;

http://jokerfans.blogspot.ie/

Then tell me if you can name half as many similarities as that between comic book Joker and Letoker.

How are they more traditional mob bosses? Letoker was running a freakin' nightclub. What major Batman villain is infamous as a nightclub owner in the comics? That's right, The Penguin.

Such a contrast is totally unnecessary, not to mention the Joker is the last character who should be doing that.

And Leto also evoked Joker's garb. He had his purple trench coat. He just wasn't wearing purple and green the whole time, it's not like he's limited to that color scheme in the comics.

The Joker's most famous nickname is "Clown Prince of Crime". So while Ledger's terrorist persona has comic roots, it's ridiculous to say the Joker doesn't belong as a crime boss who cares about control of his criminal kingdom. Also, "gangstas" run night clubs too, and Jokers club fits his personality, far from the more classy operations Penguin would maintain.

 

[Omegabat]

There's also something called character evolution, Joker doesn't fit the gangster stereotype, or the serial killer stereotype. That's the easiest way to bungle up his character. We have Zsasz, Cobblepot, Black Mask etc for all that.
Joker is simply the devil to Batman's God, the yin to his yang, the chaos to order.
Leto's was none of that tbh, he was love sick gangsta.

 

[The Joker]

And Leto also evoked Joker's garb. He had his purple trench coat.

For one very brief scene. Wearing something the Joker wore for one scene does not evoke the character's garb for the whole movie.

He just wasn't wearing purple and green the whole time, it's not like he's limited to that color scheme in the comics.

That's a strawman. Catwoman didn't always wear a cat costume, that doesn't mean we want a costumeless Catwoman. The purple suit is the Joker's hallmark look. Spider-Man has not always sported the classic red and blues, but that is the main costume he should always have.

There's nothing wrong with Joker stepping out of his classic duds into something else e.g. the classy black tux like in the Alex Ross art for a couple of scenes. But to have him wearing gold pimp jackets, boring white shirts etc for the whole movie, garb that is not only not synonmous with Joker, but is totally the antithesis of his image, so anti clown like, that it's just plain wrong.

The Joker's most famous nickname is "Clown Prince of Crime". So while Ledger's terrorist persona has comic roots, it's ridiculous to say the Joker doesn't belong as a crime boss who cares about control of his criminal kingdom.

Quote me the post where I said Joker should never be a crime boss who cares about control. Even Ledger's Joker usurped Gotham's underworld for himself - "Tell your men they work for me now. This is MY city".

It would have been a welcome oasis if Letoker showed some interest in his criminal empire, instead of being the love sick whipped bf pining for his missing Harley.

Also, "gangstas" run night clubs too, and Jokers club fits his personality, far from the more classy operations Penguin would maintain.

Explain in great detail how a strip club fits Joker's personality. Joker is a psychopathic clown. Spare no expense on detail explaining where a strip club fits into this.

 

[hellblazer103]

It would be very easy to believe that given how poor the character was in the SS movie, but apparently they cut out several of his scenes because of the violence factor upsetting some test audiences, which is frankly ridiculous. Both previous movie Jokers got to be violent, especially Ledger.

The " violence " is probably him hitting Harley , because according to the SJW-tards who are ruining the fabric of society as we know it, men and women are equal, yet women are still fragile little flowers that can't be hit.