The Jared Leto is The Joker(?) Thread

[Wildcard]

And Leto also evoked Joker's garb. He had his purple trench coat. He just wasn't wearing purple and green the whole time, it's not like he's limited to that color scheme in the comics.

The Joker's most famous nickname is "Clown Prince of Crime". So while Ledger's terrorist persona has comic roots, it's ridiculous to say the Joker doesn't belong as a crime boss who cares about control of his criminal kingdom. Also, "gangstas" run night clubs too, and Jokers club fits his personality, far from the more classy operations Penguin would maintain.

Bingo.

 

[The Joker]

The " violence " is probably him hitting Harley , because according to the SJW-tards who are ruining the fabric of society as we know it, men and women are equal, yet women are still fragile little flowers that can't be hit.

Most likely. Funny how BTAS got away with Joker hitting her. A Saturday morning cartoon.

There's also something called character evolution, Joker doesn't fit the gangster stereotype, or the serial killer stereotype. That's the easiest way to bungle up his character. We have Zsasz, Cobblepot, Black Mask etc for all that.
Joker is simply the devil to Batman's God, the yin to his yang, the chaos to order.
Leto's was none of that tbh, he was love sick gangsta.

Bingo.

 

[Wildcard]

Joker has always fit the gangster stereotype to a degree. He's been presented in mob boss-esque fashion since his inception. Hell, Jack Napier fits the bill perfectly for being a gangster stereotype.

Am I in the Twilight Zone?

 

[Eddie Dean]

The Joker has been a gangster before, but unfortunately Leto's a "white guy gangSta (tm)". If they wanted to go that approach, they should have just gotten James Franco in full Spring Breakers mode.

 

[The Joker]

^ Exactly.

This is the reality of it; Penguin, Two Face, Black Mask and a plethora of other notable Batman villains have gangster elements to them. That doesn't mean you deck them out in tattoos, bling bling jewellry, gold pimp jackets etc.

 

[hellblazer103]

Most likely. Funny how BTAS got away with Joker hitting her. A Saturday morning cartoon.



Bingo.

Yeah , when a cartoon generally watched by kids has more balls than your "edgy" PG 13 film, you're lacking in something.

 

[Omegabat]

I dont know about you guys but I dont even see cool gangster when I look at this Joker, more like a flamboyant street pimp. Nicholson Joker fits closer to the Joker as gangster done right so Ayer cant even claim originality.

 

[Tg11]

Joker will have to show up in Batfleck's solo film especially given how Suicide Squad went down

 

[CaptainWagner]

For one very brief scene. Wearing something the Joker wore for one scene does not evoke the character's garb for the whole movie.



That's a strawman. Catwoman didn't always wear a cat costume, that doesn't mean we want a costumeless Catwoman. The purple suit is the Joker's hallmark look. Spider-Man has not always sported the classic red and blues, but that is the main costume he should always have.

There's nothing wrong with Joker stepping out of his classic duds into something else e.g. the classy black tux like in the Alex Ross art for a couple of scenes. But to have him wearing gold pimp jackets, boring white shirts etc for the whole movie, garb that is not only not synonmous with Joker, but is totally the antithesis of his image, so anti clown like, that it's just plain wrong.



Quote me the post where I said Joker should never be a crime boss who cares about control. Even Ledger's Joker usurped Gotham's underworld for himself - "Tell your men they work for me now. This is MY city".

It would have been a welcome oasis if Letoker showed some interest in his criminal empire, instead of being the love sick whipped bf pining for his missing Harley.



Explain in great detail how a strip club fits Joker's personality. Joker is a psychopathic clown. Spare no expense on detail explaining where a strip club fits into this.

I do agree that they could have had him in the purple coat for more of the movie, that would have been an improvement. But you kept referencing things the Joker "shouldn't be doing". I assumed you meant actually caring about his criminal empire. And I certainly got the feeling that he cared. And he does care about Harley in the comics, just not in a healthy way. And I agree the Warner Brother hack execs screwed up their relationship in the final cut. Lastly, a gaudy, tacky, eclectic strip club is exactly the type of business I would picture Joker running as the front to his criminal enterprises.

 

[The Joker]

I dont know about you guys but I dont even see cool gangster when I look at this Joker, more like a flamboyant street pimp. Nicholson Joker fits closer to the Joker as gangster done right so Ayer cant even claim originality.

I agree. He was like a pimp in tacky clothing and bling bling jewellry.

I do agree that they could have had him in the purple coat for more of the movie, that would have been an improvement. But you kept referencing things the Joker "shouldn't be doing". I assumed you meant actually caring about his criminal empire.

Ok. I'm not sure how you assumed that though since I've been very specific on the flaws of Letoker.

And I certainly got the feeling that he cared.

From where exactly?

And he does care about Harley in the comics, just not in a healthy way.

He couldn't care less about Harley. She is nothing but a tool to him. Hired help under the pretense that he cares about her;

Post a comic book that states otherwise.

And I agree the Warner Brother hack execs screwed up their relationship in the final cut. Lastly, a gaudy, tacky, eclectic strip club is exactly the type of business I would picture Joker running as the front to his criminal enterprises.

Why would you picture Joker running a strip club when in over 70 years of comics, and the numerous business fronts he's had to hide himself and his criminal dealings, none of them have been even remotely close to being a strip club.

 

[Manofplastic]

Joker is going to return in the DCU, thanks to Batman notifying Luthor will go to Arkham.
You can bet your dollar behind that Joker is going to be there.

 

[Manofplastic]

Apart from that, one side of me wants to see Jared Leto portray the joker again, but in a more menacing and 'dark' way, not in a 'wangsta' way, and not in deluded high-on-meds facial expressions with weird wobbly image effects.
A more serious, concerned, in control and absolute maniacal dangerous joker. no face tats, no shiny trash. If this could be a prequal to SS, perhaps even before BvS, i hope they'd have Bats kick the living daylights out of Joker that he snaps and gets zinged by electric shock - perhaps accidentaly having the shock dont stop - and this fries joker into what he was in SS.

if not, then puhlease ditch letoker and find a worthy replacement and turn letoker in a mentally handicapped robin with psych disorder turned into joker.
would be odd, having him be harley's 'creator'. 'jokes on you batman'.
i hated the idea originally, but after seeing the movie, please, turn it into that. not that it's neccesarily down to leto, think he's still a great guy - but this is not my joker.

 

[Wildcard]

Turning a Robin into a proto-Joker is more acceptable than dealing with a few changes to appearance?

I think I'll pass on that idea.

 

[Omegabat]

Turning a Robin into a proto-Joker is more acceptable than dealing with a few changes to appearance?

I think I'll pass on that idea.

Not like it hasn't been done:
Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker
The Dark Knight Strikes again

to a lesser extent Under the Red Hood(using Joker's old alias to undermine everything Batman stood for) and Arkham Knight(turned by Joker in to rabid attack dog)

All of which were better received than SS Joker, probably excluding TDKSA.

 

[Wildcard]

But Return of the Joker wasn't a proto-Joker, it was the actual Joker taking possession of someone else's body. Not exactly the same thing.

And so what? Because they were received better they should completely discard Leto's Joker instead of actually giving him something to work with while not cutting out a large portion of his scenes?

Outside of hardcore Batman fans, I haven't seen an immense amount of hate towards this interpretation. Certainly not enough that they should do something as drastic as killing off the character.

 

[hellblazer103]

I agree. He was like a pimp in tacky clothing and bling bling jewellry.



Ok. I'm not sure how you assumed that though since I've been very specific on the flaws of Letoker.



From where exactly?



He couldn't care less about Harley. She is nothing but a tool to him. Hired help under the pretense that he cares about her;

Post a comic book that states otherwise.



Why would you picture Joker running a strip club when in over 70 years of comics, and the numerous business fronts he's had to hide himself and his criminal dealings, none of them have been even remotely close to being a strip club.

Well, there's this to consider :


"He loves her as much as he can. He loves her in his way." -Paul Dini

"Expressing emotion in any way that's real and meaningful is alien to the Joker, but he's learning those parts of himself, however unconsciously, through Harley." -Mark Hamill

"Everyone else sees the Joker laugh; only Harley has ever seen him cry." - Arleen Sorkin

I don't entirely mind aspects of either interpretation ; the idea that he doesn't care for her, or the idea that he might care for her in some twisted way. It really depends on the writer, and that's where Suicide Squad dropped the ball. They reeeeeally overdid the lovey doveyness.

 

[Tg11]

Leto's Joker I can see him showing up in the solo film either as the main villain or as a set-up towards him being a villain in a future sequel like think post-credits or mid-credits

 

[The Joker]

Well, there's this to consider :


"He loves her as much as he can. He loves her in his way." -Paul Dini

I'd like to see the source where Dini said this.

"Expressing emotion in any way that's real and meaningful is alien to the Joker, but he's learning those parts of himself, however unconsciously, through Harley." -Mark Hamill

"Everyone else sees the Joker laugh; only Harley has ever seen him cry." - Arleen Sorkin

This is factually wrong. For example Sid the Squid and the rest of Joker's henchmen saw him cry at the mock funeral he had for Batman in 'The Man Who Killed Batman' episode;

That had nothing to do with Harley helping him feel emotions. That was Joker expressing sadness that Batman was gone, and the fun of the game with him was over for good - "Without Batman crime has no punchline". So I don't know what they are talking about with this she helps him feel emotions/only Harley has seen him cry stuff.

I don't entirely mind aspects of either interpretation ; the idea that he doesn't care for her, or the idea that he might care for her in some twisted way. It really depends on the writer, and that's where Suicide Squad dropped the ball. They reeeeeally overdid the lovey doveyness.

That's the problem; there is no interpretation that shows him caring for her. Harley was and always has been nothing but a tool/pawn to be used by him. When he has no use for her she is not on his radar. If there's a comic book story that shows otherwise, I'm still waiting to see it.

 

[hellblazer103]

I'd like to see the source where Dini said this.

Me too, tbh. However, I've often seen these quotes floating around for years.

This is factually wrong. For example Sid the Squid and the rest of Joker's henchmen saw him cry at the mock funeral he had for Batman in 'The Man Who Killed Batman' episode;

That had nothing to do with Harley helping him feel emotions. That was Joker expressing sadness that Batman was gone, and the fun of the game with him was over for good - "Without Batman crime has no punchline". So I don't know what they are talking about with this she helps him feel emotions/only Harley has seen him cry stuff.

To be fair, this took place quite a bit after Harley became an established character and all that , plus she was there. So , yes, she very well could've paved the way for Joker being able to express such emotions , regardless of whether or not those emotions were for her . And this panel from the famous Azzarello " Joker " story ( which I have a feeling you're not fond of , lol ) seems to really illustrate the " only Harley has seen him cry " concept :

It's also, notably, the only story where The Joker doesn't really abuse Harley at all. (Not to say he isn't still an evil bastard in the story or anything )

That's the problem; there is no interpretation that shows him caring for her. Harley was and always has been nothing but a tool/pawn to be used by him. When he has no use for her she is not on his radar. If there's a comic book story that shows otherwise, I'm still waiting to see it.

There's this to consider :

Here, we see him trying to kill her , not because she serves no use to him any longer or any of the other usual reasons, but simply because he's starting to have feelings for her . Feelings that remind him of who he was before he became The Joker, and how he felt back then. Of course, you could always interpret this as him just BS'ing and saying another cruel joke .

There's also the TNBA episode where he tries to replace Harley , but simply can't find anyone that quite measures up , and seems to actually express feelings of missing her. I could be remembering it just a teeny bit wrong, though .

As I said, though, I don't mind either interpretation , as long as they're not ridiculously overromanticized ala SS.

 

[The Joker]

To be fair, this took place quite a bit after Harley became an established character and all that , plus she was there. So , yes, she very well could've paved the way for Joker being able to express such emotions , regardless of whether or not those emotions were for her .

Why would you assume such a thing? Take out the factually false Hamill/Sorkin comments, look at the episodes themselves and show me one iota of proof or implication that Joker was expressing this emotion because Harley helped him. There is nothing in their episodes together leading up to and including this one that shows or even implies such a thing.

And this panel from the famous Azzarello " Joker " story ( which I have a feeling you're not fond of , lol ) seems to really illustrate the " only Harley has seen him cry " concept :

Two things;

1. That's an out of continuity story.
2. That was written years after that Sorkin comment.

It's also, notably, the only story where The Joker doesn't really abuse Harley at all. (Not to say he isn't still an evil bastard in the story or anything )

There's lots of stories where Joker doesn't abuse Harley, including in her debut episode in BTAS.

Not just in the comics and BTAS. Even the video games, like Arkham City, didn't show him being abusive to her.

There's this to consider :

Here, we see him trying to kill her , not because she serves no use to him any longer or any of the other usual reasons, but simply because he's starting to have feelings for her . Feelings that remind him of who he was before he became The Joker, and how he felt back then. Of course, you could always interpret this as him just BS'ing and saying another cruel joke .

Thank you for posting that. That panel proves my whole entire point. The one and only time Joker ever said he felt anything in the way of emotion towards her, it disgusted him, and he tried to kill her. So why would anyone think he is harboring any feelings of emotion for her when the very idea of such a thing sickens him?

Whether you want to think he is playing a cruel joke, or being genuine, the end result is the same. He's getting rid of her because he wants no part in a relationship with her.

There's also the TNBA episode where he tries to replace Harley , but simply can't find anyone that quite measures up , and seems to actually express feelings of missing her. I could be remembering it just a teeny bit wrong, though .

You're definitely not recalling it correctly. In that TNBA episode, 'Joker's Millions', he very much replaces her, despite the fact he had the money to buy Harley a ticket out of jail (something one of his own henchmen point out to him), Joker doesn't care.

Harley gets revenge on him at the end when he's captured;

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The one he hires is just useless and very annoying. Its like when he kicked Harley out of the gang and she teamed with Ivy, he "missed" her then because his skivvy wasn't around to do the chores;

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But when he tracked her down it wasn't because he wanted her back. It was to fleece her and Ivy of all their stolen loot. Like I said Harley is only ever on Joker's radar when she is useful to him or has something he wants.

As I said, though, I don't mind either interpretation , as long as they're not ridiculously overromanticized ala SS.

Understatement. Joker's whole world revolved around getting Harley back in SS.

 

[Brother Jack]

1. That's an out of continuity story.
2. That was written years after that Sorkin comment.

Does that really matter? There are plenty of comics that aren't considered canon that have had gigantic impacts on the mythos. What really matters is how good it is, regardless of if it's considered "else-world". And for me, Joker is not that good. It's an oddly tamed take on the character, reducing him to a more stereotypical serial killer and gangster. There are ways of exploring those aspects of the character without losing what makes him much larger than them. Unfortunately Leto's version also failed to do that.

 

[Wildcard]

The movies themselves are out of continuity stories. So if you're going to bring that up to refute bringing up Azarrello's version sobbing to Harley, you might as well not be so against what was presented in SS.

 

[The Joker]

Does that really matter? There are plenty of comics that aren't considered canon that have had gigantic impacts on the mythos. What really matters is how good it is, regardless of if it's considered "else-world".

Yes it definitely matters if you're going to use a story that is out of canon as a defense for something that is supposedly in character for the Joker. These movies are supposed to be an adaption of these characters. So when they insert traits that are the antithesis of whom these characters are, that leaves a bad taste. For example if they turned Batman into a blood sucking vampire, would fans be cool with that because some elseword story did it;

There's a difference between using elements from elseworlds stories that fans found really cool e.g. Batman's metal armor suit for fighting Superman, and characterizations that fly in the face of the character's characterization history like Letoker's pining lovesick boyfriend. The former doesn't go against the character and who he is in any way. The latter does.

And for me, Joker is not that good. It's an oddly tamed take on the character, reducing him to a more stereotypical serial killer and gangster. There are ways of exploring those aspects of the character without losing what makes him much larger than them. Unfortunately Leto's version also failed to do that.

I agree.

 

[Omegabat]

I'd also like to add that for every good elseworld there are about a dozen other bad ones and they are usually bad because the writer makes the characters ******ed.

The one where Batman drank Jokers blood is actually a decent one because then he asked Alfred to stake him out of guilt. If DCEU Batman were a vampire he'd stake Alfred instead. Little decisions count and DCEU so far has failed to respectfully present these characters.

 

[hellblazer103]

Joker is not that good. It's an oddly tamed take on the character, reducing him to a more stereotypical serial killer and gangster. There are ways of exploring those aspects of the character without losing what makes him much larger than them. Unfortunately Leto's version also failed to do that.

I like it as an example of how truly evil and despicable The Joker is and why people shouldn't look up to him as some role model ( even though they do anyway ... ) , and it's really cool when you think about the influences for the story. King Of New York, Gangs Of New York, Blue Velvet.... picture a drugged up Christopher Walken or Bill The Butcher reading Joker's lines and tell me it doesn't improve the reading experience .

There's still plenty of Jokerish things to the characterization there , too. The sense of humor (" how about some rabbit ? ", slapping the dollar on Monty's ass ), the mood swings, the overall psychopathic nature (obviously ) , the obsession with Batman, etc.


I also like how he slightly resembles a mixture of Ledger with some of Nicholson's facial expressions ( yes, I'm aware that Bermejo came up with his Joker design before TDK )