Joker "The Joker" in development with Todd Phillips and Martin Scorsese attached? - Part 2

[Prettyricky]

Just saw it, loved it and the ending really took it to another level for me. I felt bad for Arthur and what he went through in the movie especially his past but only up to a certain point. I think for Phoenix and phillips this is the type of movie that cements your place in cinematic history if it ages properly like taxi driver and falling down. I think Phoenix also did heath ledger proud while also making his own mark on the character. Jared leto at this point has been erased from existence.

 

[Prettyricky]

This movie is more than a comic book adaptation or a part of a bigger universe, It's a tragedy. There's so much to say about Arthur, his past, his pov and his life. I really can't believe Todd and Joaquin made this movie.

DC really had balls for making this film.

When fans said they wanted darker DC films they meant exploration character driven films like this. Take these characters and just get into what makes them tick. Screw shared cinematic universes that are just ads for the next lead in film, give me more joker type films and less captain marvel.

 

[Prettyricky]

I agree. But you're also not supposed to beat down a mentally ill person. It's... complicated.

Also true considering he didn't provoke any of the beatdowns.

 

[TMP98]

Director of The Florida Project loved this

 

[Moncton]

Really good movie, but I do feel it goes a tad bit too far in making Joker a sympathetic character. I wish there was maybe some dialogue or character that showed someone who also had a tough life but realizes killing people makes them the greatest abuser of all

 

[Hollis Mason]

Director of The Florida Project loved this

He also liked a tweet from someone saying it deserves best picture nom. Seems like he really liked it

 

[Mysteryman]

Any idea

Well there was that Doom script that one guy sent to Feige before the Fox/Disney deal was completed. Though knowing the comic book background on Doom, I think a FF movie should come out first (because Doom and Richards interacted in college). The comic book background alone is enough material for it's own movie in my opinion and better presented that way than in a FF movie.

I know that it will never happen, but I would like for them to take an obscure Marvel villain and show the tragedy of their story. Somebody like the Grey Gargoyle , everything and everyone he touches turns to stone. It could really be moving, if done properly.

 

[Prettyricky]

Any idea

I know that it will never happen, but I would like before them to take an obscure Marvel villain and show

I highly doubt Disney will ever explore a villain in this manner.

 

[Marvel united]

Wow, this movie was.. Something else. Amazingly crafted film on every level. But it was so depressing and nihilistic. I was wishing there would be a Batman

 

[Arachnerd]

The interesting thing about Batman, depending on how you interpret the ending, is that it adds a more peculiar dynamic to his usual relationship with the Joker.

Spoiler

Assuming the events of the movie weren't all in Arthur's head, you increase Bruce's contempt for the Joker since while he wasn't directly responsible for his parents' death, he did escalate the chain of events that eventually led to their demise and Gotham's further fall into anarchy and disorder. Plus, you could have an interesting struggle where Batman would be walking the line of whether he should kill the Joker or not with this addition, but again, that would be left ambiguous too since we'd see it from Joker's point of view.

Should they go this route and write a possible sequel around it, it could provide some more fascinating themes and conflict. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Invader Joker]

Are there any interviews where Philips talks about the scene where Arthur meets Bruce Wayne? I feel like he made a lot of deliberate choices with the Bruce Wayne character and the way he directed that kid

 

[Shift]

I absolutely loved the film. Thought everything from the sets, the cinematography, the score, the casting, Joaquin Phoenix knocked it out of the park. I can definitely see why some people have issues with it. As far as it justifying immoral behavior because of mental illness or trying to show sympathy to a historically evil character because of the struggle of Arthurs life that leads him to become Joker. But i think that's what makes Joker the most dangerous villain, in that he's able to capture your fear and sympathy for him, real or not. I like the interpretations as the story being a fantasy in his head and that's the joke to him at the end with the therapist. The whole multiple choice storyline of Jokers origins. He's unreliable, but he can spin whatever background or reasoning he needs to gain supporters, justify his actions, or just to amuse himself. He's a man with nothing to lose. It reminds me a bit like Hitchcocks Psycho. When Norman is dumping the car in the lake, there's that moment where it gets stuck. You think to yourself, oh no, he's going to get caught. When rather celebrating that he will get caught, but that the car successfully gets dumped into the water. And that's the great trick that movie does. Is to manipulate your senses, and to the character. Joker manipulates, nothing you see or hear can always be the way it is. The joke is that he knows what the punchline is and we don't. Thats what the movie while may not be its intention, successfully does.

 

[FatRobin]

You can feel empathy for him without agreeing with what he's doing, you just get why he does it.

The guy is kind from the basis, he wants to be. But life didn't want him to be, his passed is terribly shocking. Plus if you notice, he doesn't hurt people who are kind to him and children are so pure that he doesn't do anything wrong in front of them, or it makes him stop. ''I did it because they were awful'' shows how simple and true to him is action is. He just tells the truth.

And at the end, he's really getting what he always wanted but in the ''wrong way''.
He's got a crowd that loves him, cheer him and like what he does.

There's so much nuance in his development it's incredible. The guy just can't contain his emotion, his dance is his way to get his feeling out. It's the way he's reacting to his action. It's so much more deep than any of the comic book interpretation. The way he's acting in the end is unbelievably human. He's just completely disconnected with our world. And I like how people are cheering him but he doesn't give a **** about their political opinion, he just wants to be loved.

And ''Life is a comedy'' takes so much more sens, for him, a young boy getting hit by a drunk driver is a joke, because ''That's Life''.

I also think it's a great criticism of our contemporary quest of being liked and always looking for approbation. (social media)

You can so much analyse about him dancing in a psychological point of view. You can see it as some form of narcissism, of self-esteem or just the way his body lives with his feeling.

This movie guys, is more than a comic book movie, or a movie about Joker. It's more than that, it's a true human tragedy, he's crying for **** sakes at the end. And when he's joker, he's the same guy, he doesn't try to act crazy or to act like a psychopath, he is just at the bottom, but it's where he feels alive.

And his joke ''I hope my death makes more cents than my life'' really has a great profound meaning. The ways he looks at it at the end, before going full angry, really show how he decides that no one will laugh at him anymore. He won't take it and he won't do what he's been planning to do since he had a gun.

I'm not on his side but I'm not on the society's side either, but we get why he's there. This movie really is a masterpiece and really goes where not a lot of movie went.

It is more than an adaption of a comic book character movie, it's a movie point. And a great ****ing one.

This is beautiful dude.

 

[Micromind]

Never thought this was possible..

Joker: Opening Weekend: $93.5 M

Spider-Man: Far from Home: Opening Weekend: $92.5 M

 

[Mysteryman]

Never thought this was possible..

Joker: Opening Weekend: $93.5 M

Spider-Man: Far from Home: Opening Weekend: $92.5 M

These days, for CBM's, ANYTHING is possible!

 

[Frodo]

I'm still trying to process the film. I'll give my full thoughts later. Today was DC Sunday for me since I've watched Joker, Batwoman and Supergirl.

 

[Holy Slapper]

That's exactly why Batman would exist. As the only beacon of hope. And in a nihilistic world such as this that would definitely not be Superman, but Batman.
Gotham City has almost always been portrayed as a hellish, nightmarish city. And that's exactly why they need the Dark Knight.

That's actually what I've seen some people at various message boards (and IIRC some reviews as well) over here mention, the movie needed a hint or glimpse of Batman as a sign of hope.

 

[Shift]

Thought this was a great and interesting point from another thread.

Wow... is all I can say for the moment. So much to process. Phoenix has done something incredible here. And Phillips deserves a lot of credit. Yea the film wears its influences on its sleeve. But so does Tarantino's films. This was a brilliantly shot and edited film.

And the writing is genius if you think of the film like this....

... the whole film is a story told by the Joker we see at the end in Arkham. Look at him, he's remembering, reminiscing about his "birth" whilst giggling away. What really happened? What are embellishments? Is any of it true? Who knows. Maybe Joker doesn't even know.

Here's the key... the Joker we see at the end? He's been put there by Batman. He knows Batman is Bruce Wayne. Was Thomas Wayne really an ********, or was that just Joker being spiteful to his nemesis by making his dad out to be a guy who got what he deserved? It also explains why the whole thing has a sympathetic slant to it. OH WOE IS ME! No, that's Joker ****ing with psychiatrist, and us, the viewer.

I need to see this film again, and I will go into more detail about my thoughts on it. But atm I'm 100% going with that idea. The whole film is Jokers origin story... told by a veteran Joker sitting in Arkham thanks to an existing Batman. Him escaping at the end begins their cycle again.

It would definitely make sense. Todd Phillips commented about the ending with the asylum. Notice how much cleaner and whiter Arkham is. As well as more put together the social worker is. It's as though Gotham is a bit of a better place towards the end. And in fact maybe the ending is an older Joker reminiscing about his questionable but plausible beginning.

 

[Invader Joker]

As much as I'd love to see this Joker fight Batman, there's also a part of me that really doesn't want Phillips specifically to touch Batman at all lol.

Phillips was so good at directing this movie because he really understood the Joker and his anarchic and tragic nature. And it's no wonder he did.. his first job as a filmmaker was making a documentary about GG Allin which he funded by selling John Wayne Gacy's prison paintings that he acqured because GG was friends with John for god's sake.

I'm not quite sure he has the sensibilities to handle Batman. I feel like... there's a good and interesting and nuanced way to do Batman in this universe, but there's also a really really stupid way such as making Batman an All Star Batman and Robin edgelord manchild which ugh. And I can't help but feel Phillips would be very very tempted to go in that direction because of his sensibilities.

I feel that if you were to have Batman in this universe, Batman cannot, and I mean this: He CAN'T see the world in the same way Arthur does. He needs to be the opposite of that. If you make a Batman in this universe, you can have parallels but so much stuff needs to change in contrast to this movie. It has to be shot differently, it has to be scored differently, it has to be paced very differently, etc.

And I feel like a filmmaker with better sensibilities, such as David Fincher or someone like that would be far better suited to handle the darkness and grittiness of a Batman in this universe without betraying the character's core values and what he represents.

It's really a shame this won't be connected to Reeves movies because I feel Robert Pattinson would've been a great counter balance to Phoenix, and Reeves approach and PoV would a great counterbalance to Philips but it is what it is.

 

[rebellion]

when handling such a big property, studios need to be careful to give a proper version of the character to the audiences, one they can build on later and one that condenses decades of comics storytelling. marvel mastered that.
dc screwed that up. most people will now think bats and joker are brothers (i heard people commenting that on way out of cinema).. and it also clashes with the version they saw in suicide squad..
joker isn't a bad movie by any means, it's actually pretty damn good. when you borrow from taxi driver, king of comedy, slap 'joker' on the poster.. you'd have to be simon kinberg to screw that up.
but no matter how good it is, in the long run, it's bad for the brand. the most popular version of the character isn't the 'right one', studios will keep making joker and batman movies with changing/clashing origins, we will never get to the meat of the dc universe in films like we did with marvel. it's a damn shame.
it's like general audiences are pupils who will never master basic algebra and can never build on that basic knowledge. and the blame is on WB/DC, cuz they suck as teachers.

 

[-JKR-]

when handling such a big property, studios need to be careful to give a proper version of the character to the audiences, one they can build on later and one that condenses decades of comics storytelling. marvel mastered that.
dc screwed that up. most people will now think bats and joker are brothers (i heard people commenting that on way out of cinema).. and it also clashes with the version they saw in suicide squad..
joker isn't a bad movie by any means, it's actually pretty damn good. when you borrow from taxi driver, king of comedy, slap 'joker' on the poster.. you'd have to be simon kinberg to screw that up.
but no matter how good it is, in the long run, it's bad for the brand. the most popular version of the character isn't the 'right one', studios will keep making joker and batman movies with changing/clashing origins, we will never get to the meat of the dc universe in films like we did with marvel. it's a damn shame.
it's like general audiences are pupils who will never master basic algebra and can never build on that basic knowledge. and the blame is on WB/DC, cuz they suck as teachers.

I disagree. Great stories and movies such as this represent the "meat of the DC Universe".
I'm sick of how the MCU has distorted people's views on what movies should be. The MCU is basically a big screen TV series. One's enough.

 

[FunkMiller]

That's exactly why Batman would exist. As the only beacon of hope. And in a nihilistic world such as this that would definitely not be Superman, but Batman.
Gotham City has almost always been portrayed as a hellish, nightmarish city. And that's exactly why they need the Dark Knight.

I find this whole desire to think Batman should exist in this universe rather strange, to be honest.

This movie is being celebrated for its nihilism, realism, grit, and exploration of human failing. It’s in the same genre as Taxi Driver... not The Dark Knight. It’s not a comic book movie. Nothing about the film says it’s a comic book movie, other than the minimal amount of story it cribs from Batman. Todd Phillips has said he just took elements of the Batman narrative to make a ‘real’ movie. Joaquin Phoenix didn’t want any references to Batman in the film.

There’s nothing of the comic book fantasy here. Nothing that suggests a character as fantastical as Batman could come into being. Thomas Wayne is presented in a negative light (not just via Arthur’s perspective) and it seems very unlikely that he’d sire someone as heroic as Batman.

This film is an exploration of the madness, failure, and rage suffered by a pathetic little man. It’s not the basis for a comic fantasy.

There’s a bit of having your cake and eating it going on, I think. People are loving how nihilistic and down to earth Joker is... but then also want the hope and fantasy of Batman layered into it?

 

[rebellion]

I disagree. Great stories and movies such as this represent the "meat of the DC Universe".
I'm sick of how the MCU has distorted people's views on what movies should be. The MCU is basically a big screen TV series. One's enough.

recycling batman and joker all over again with, as i've said, changing/clashing origins, isnt 'meat', imo. we almost never get to see anything else. that's what i meant and i think it was pretty clear and obvious.
joker isnt fresh, it isnt new. it's a combination of two great movies starring a barely recognizable comic book villain. is it still great - considering where it borrows from, yes. but does it deserve praise and awards? imo, nope.
for myself, someone who is a big fan of dc mythology in the comics, i cant help but see this film as a long term loss. depite it being painted as a huge victory on the internet.

 

[Maze]

i like the idea that a fully formed Joaquin Phoenix Joker would continue to have fantasies, that would become nightmare like. Hence a Batman. Which could or not exist like Joker see him

Anyways, Batman year one is basically influenced by the seventies movies. I dont see where is the problem with a Batman even more based in realism

 

[-JKR-]

recycling batman and joker all over again with, as i've said, changing/clashing origins, isnt 'meat', imo. we almost never get to see anything else. that's what i meant and i think it was pretty clear and obvious.
joker isnt fresh, it isnt new. it's a combination of two great movies starring a barely recognizable comic book villain. is it still great - considering where it borrows from, yes. but does it deserve praise and awards? imo, nope.
for myself, someone who is a big fan of dc mythology in the comics, i cant help but see this film as a long term loss. depite it being painted as a huge victory on the internet.

You're definitely not part of the target audience for this movie, which is a HUGE victory both for movies in general AND movies based on comic books and graphic novels.
It's the much needed proof (which we already got in the past but forgot in the last decade) that you don't have to adhere to certain standards when adapting DC or Marvel characters.