Joker "The Joker" in development with Todd Phillips and Martin Scorsese attached? - Part 2

[Gladius Nova]

It's a small nitpick, but isn't it an issue that those Joker is like thirty or forty years older than Batman?

More like 20 if you look at his age and Bruce’s age in this movie.

 

[The Shape]

First of all, the movie didn't follow that many people. Second, are you telling me Sophia, Gary, Penny, Alfred, the detectives, Bruce, Thomas and Martha were all "trash people"? And you're specifically targeting Thomas. What, you didn't like how he was protecting his son from a psychopath?

If Gotham was mainly filled with good people, the cops would be able to handle them. The point, is that Gotham is so corrupt, that the city needs someone like Batman to help out, because there's just so much that needs to be done. It also shows how your regular Gothamite would follow psychos like The Joker or Two-Face.

Of course there's good people in Gotham, but it's Gotham. There's also plenty of seedy people filling the streets. It's kinda the point.

Also, Arthur’s perspective is that everyone is “awful”. Just because he feels that way and lives a hopeless life, doesn’t mean it lines up with “reality”.

 

[PacificBoy]

This is where the film falls apart for me a bit. If the point of the movie is basically "society has problems", then....yeah, some of the critics kind of have a point about how it's a beautifully made, but kind of shallow film that thinks its way deeper and smarter than it is. Not that it's a not a totally valid and important thing to spotlight, but it does so in a fairly one-note and obvious way.

More or less where I'm at too. Its parallels or influences, Taxi Driver and King of Comedy, are the better, tighter movies to my mind, but Phoenix's performance makes this a must-watch. I don't how to feel about the movie overall, and I think that's the best praise I can give it.

 

[Joe Von Zombie]

It's cool to see that the movie is getting this kind of praise and sparking this kind of discussion but...

I am not really a fan of Michael Moore's take here. I guess that means he was also rooting for Bane's "revolution" in The Dark Knight Rises? There was no part of me cheering for Joker in this film. I did feel sorry for Arthur, but his violent acts were despicable and really uncomfortable to watch.

This is where the film falls apart for me a bit. If the point of the movie is basically "society has problems", then....yeah, some of the critics kind of have a point about how it's a beautifully made, but kind of shallow film that thinks its way deeper and smarter than it is. Not that it's a not a totally valid and important thing to spotlight, but it does so in a fairly one-note and obvious way.

However...this is where interpretation comes into play, but for me the movie instantly becomes kind of brilliant for me when viewed through the lens that

Spoiler

the entire movie is Joker spinning one of his multiple choice origin stories. When you look the stories he told in TDK, it was always to paint himself as the victim, to lure someone in with the idea that his motives could be understood. I like to think the REAL Joker that we see at the end of the film would be having a good laugh at Michael Moore and anyone else who is looking at poor Arthur Fleck's story as a cautionary tale of a broken society. They're the ones projecting certain messages onto the film that may or may not be there, because the film is told through the POV of the ultimate unreliable narrator.

That said, I still think it's absolutely a testament to the film that it's bringing out these kinds of discussions. I don't want it to seem like I'm coming down on the movie. I really like it a lot, the more I think about it. But at the moment, it only truly works for me with that one interpretation, if I'm to accept it as a true "Joker" movie.

The point of this movie isn't just "society has problems." This film's greater message is specifically about how society fails people with mental health issues. "The worst thing about having a mental illness is people expect you to behave like you don't." That's the backbone of this movie and speaking as someone with mental health issues, I think it handles this beautifully.

 

[Travesty]

I mean, there's a bunch of different themes going on in the movie, it's not just one theme only.

One of the themes, is the media's influence on creating and manufacture the hysteria around a "mad clown killing people", and having society follow along into that madness. Which is a double dose of irony coming from Michael Moore, who is speaking out against the media's own manufactured hysteria over this movie. It's just bizarre.

 

[BaelaTargaryen]

'Joker' Box Office: All the Records Broken

Here are the records and highlights of Joker's debut, not adjusted for inflation.

Biggest October Domestic Opening of All Time

The previous best was Sony's superhero pic Venom, which launched on the same weekend in 2018 with $80.3 million. The success of Venom — rated PG-13 — no doubt was a factor when Warner Bros. was dating Joker, which also scored a record opening day for the month of October ($39.7 million).

Biggest October International Opening of All Time

Venom was the previous champ with $127.2 million.

Joker exceeded all expectations internationally, including scoring the top bow of all time for a Warners pic in South Korea ($16.3 million). In the Asia region overall, the film boasted the fourth-biggest debut of all time for a Warners movie, including Japan ($7 million).

Joker scored the biggest October debut of all time in 21 markets across the globe, including Mexico ($13.1 million) — where it was also notched the second-biggest opening ever for a DC-related film behind Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice — Australia ($6.6 million) and Brazil ($7.3 million). And in 39 markets, the movie delivered Warners its biggest opening of the year to date, including the U.K. ($14.8 million) and Russia ($10 million),

Biggest Imax October Opening

The large-format exhibitor generated $9 million in ticket sales.

Biggest Worldwide Launch of All Time for October

Joker skipped past Venom's $207.3 million global debut.

A Career-Best Start for Todd Phillips

The filmmaker's previous biggest opening belonged to The Hangover Part II in 2011 ($85.9 million). In 2009, The Hangover debuted to $45 million, while the third Hangover installment launched to $41.7 million in 2013. War Dogs, Phillips' last film prior to Joker, opened to a disappointing $14.7 million in 2016.

A Career-Best Start for Joaquin Phoenix

Phoenix's previous biggest domestic debut belonged to M. Night Shymalan's Signs in 2002 ($60.1 million).

A Career-Best Start for Co-Star Robert De Niro

De Niro's previous biggest live-action debut was Meet the Fockers in 2004 ($46.1 million).

Fourth-Best Weekend Opening for an R-Rated Pic

Topping the list is Deadpool ($132.4 million), followed by Deadpool 2 ($125.5 million), It ($123.4 million) and then Joker. Next are 2003's The Matrix Reloaded ($91.8 million) and It: Chapter Two, which debuted last month to $91.1 million.

Warner Bros.' Biggest Domestic Opening in Two Years

In September 2017, It debuted to $123.4 million, followed by $93.8 million for Justice League in November of that year. Generally speaking, Warners has had a rough year so far, outside of Joker, It: Chapter Two and Annabelle Comes Home.

Widest October Release of All Time in North America

Joker rolled out in 4,374 theaters, edging Venom's 4,350 locations.

 

[Travesty]

'Joker' Box Office: All the Records Broken

 

[BatLobster]

The point of this movie isn't just "society has problems." This film's greater message is specifically about how society fails people with mental health issues. "The worst thing about having a mental illness is people expect you to behave like you don't." That's the backbone of this movie and speaking as someone with mental health issues, I think it handles this beautifully.

I'm glad that aspect of the film spoke to you. As someone who has been impacted by mental health issues in my family, it's something I'm sensitive towards as well.

However, personally I don't think this movie has any one "point". I feel like it's more of a rorschach test for the viewer to read into what they will. And as such it's no surprise that Michael Moore latched more onto the more socioeconomic reading of the movie.

I think the movie shines a spotlight on various issues, but by nature of Joker being such an unreliable narrator...it's hard for me to put too much credence into any message the film might be trying to convey because I think the ambiguity blurs everything. That's just me though, this is clearly the type of movie that everyone will get something different out of.

 

[Joe Von Zombie]

I mean, there's a bunch of different themes going on in the movie, it's not just one theme only.

One of the themes, is the media's influence on creating and manufacture the hysteria around a "mad clown killing people", and having society follow along into that madness. Which is a double dose of irony coming from Michael Moore, who is speaking out against the media's own manufactured hysteria over this movie. It's just bizarre.

Very true. I've just seen a lot outlets claim that the movie has nothing to say. The film has plenty to say, it's just coming from the nihilistic perspective of The Joker which shouldn't be surprising to anyone.

 

[Travesty]

I think the movie shines a spotlight on various issues, but by nature of Joker being such an unreliable narrator...it's hard for me to put too much credence into any message the film might be trying to convey because I think the ambiguity blurs everything. That's just me though, this is clearly the type of movie that everyone will get something different out of.

Well, the ambiguity just makes it a Joker movie....which is the entire point. At the end of the day, this is still a movie about The Joker. You can take some themes/messages here and there, but this is still just a fictional story. You're not supposed to take it that seriously.

 

[-JKR-]

I remain convinced that something as heroic and good as Batman could never exist in this nihilistic universe.

Punisher, maybe. Rorschach, very possibly. But not Batman.

That's exactly why Batman would exist. As the only beacon of hope. And in a nihilistic world such as this that would definitely not be Superman, but Batman.
Gotham City has almost always been portrayed as a hellish, nightmarish city. And that's exactly why they need the Dark Knight.

 

[Travesty]

Agreed, I don't understand that claim when talking about Batman?

It's an odd claim to make, IMO.

 

[BatLobster]

Well, the ambiguity just makes it a Joker movie....which is the entire point. At the end of the day, this is still a movie about The Joker. You can take some themes/messages here and there, but this is still just a fictional story. You're not supposed to take it that seriously.

Yeah, I mean I think that's pretttty much where I'm at with it. But for me the Joker-ish ambiguity really is the thing that makes the movie work for me, moreso than the other themes. I think it's just my own knee-jerk reaction to not wanting to feel any sympathy for The Joker. And I appreciate that the movie gave me that exit ramp to disconnect and take the whole thing with a grain of salt. It's a weird way to feel about a film but then again this is a Joker movie we're talking about, haha.

 

[-JKR-]

I think it's okay and right to feel empathy with Arthur to some extent. Not with the Joker, of course.
Mentally ill people are still people who need help and affection. Before they feel completely lost and left alone and risk "going werewolf."
He's sick. And society certainly didn't help. But then again it's not as black and white in the movie and it's intriguing to ponder about all the possible scenarios.

 

[geosphere]

It's a small nitpick, but isn't it an issue that those Joker is like thirty or forty years older than Batman?

in the movie I remember there was a line there were they implied that he was in his 30s(or maybe outright said it). Have to see it again. I know he isn't that age in real life but I think he was playing younger.

 

[Travesty]

Yeah, I mean I think that's pretttty much where I'm at with it. But for me the Joker-ish ambiguity really is the thing that makes the movie work for me, moreso than the other themes. I think it's just my own knee-jerk reaction to not wanting to feel any sympathy for The Joker. And I appreciate that the movie gave me that exit ramp to disconnect and take the whole thing with a grain of salt. It's a weird way to feel about a film but then again this is a Joker movie we're talking about, haha.

Why would you feel sympathy for The Joker? Even without the ending, Arthur/Joker isn't a good person. Yes, society was beating him down, but at the end of the day, you're still not supposed to go around murdering people.

You can still point out how bad society is and how it contributed to it, but still acknowledging that Arthur/Joker is in the wrong. It's not really a binary decision. It's nuanced.

 

[-JKR-]

Why would you feel sympathy for The Joker? Even without the ending, Arthur/Joker isn't a good person. Yes, society was beating him down, but at the end of the day, you're still not supposed to go around murdering people.

You can still point out how bad society is and how it contributed to it, but still acknowledging that Arthur/Joker is in the wrong. It's not really a binary decision. It's nuanced.

I agree. But you're also not supposed to beat down a mentally ill person. It's... complicated.

 

[Travesty]

I agree. But you're also not supposed to beat down a mentally ill person. It's... complicated.

Right, it's nuanced.

 

[-JKR-]

Definitely.

 

[geosphere]

Michael Moore Calls ‘Joker’ a Masterpiece: ‘The Greater Danger to Society May Be If You Don’t See This Movie’

I am so glad there are people on the left like Beto and Moore pushing back against the self-righteous that claim to speak for the rest of us! I'm so here for this!

 

[Closerframe]

For those saying Batman couldn’t exist in such a nihilistic universe seem to forget why Bruce decided to fight crime from the get-go. Gotham was always corrupt and filled with bad people, but in Joker’s eyes, the citizens themselves are a part of the problem and just as bad as the criminals. Ledger’s Joker even makes this a point by trying to show the citizens will blow up the prisoners' boat to save themselves or when everyone went after Reese to prevent a hospital from being blown up proves this. People also seem to forget this entire movie is being told from Arthur’s perspective and his perspective alone. Thomas Wayne didn’t deserve to be killed just like Murray or the Wall Street guys. And let’s not forget, Arthur was poisoning his own mother before he even finds out he’s adopted—the guy was a psychopath.

 

[BlackFox]

Film of the year so far for me, dark and twisted but utterly compelling from the get go. It doesnt pull its punches and like a Fight Club/Clockwork Orange its not an "easy" or "nice" watch at times but my word is it refreshing and actually so much more than the some of its parts unlike the usual cookie cutter comic book movies we get today (not that there isnt a place for them too) but like Logan its nice to see a CBM go all out on what it wants to be, stick to it and nail it for the most part. Can see this being revisited over and over by many as it has so much stuff in it, even if its not a film where loads happens but its about the character more than any other comic movie probably ever, we live in a great age for CBM's.

9/10

 

[Rodimus]

Claiming that Batman couldn't exist in such a dark world is either not getting Batman at all, or willfully looking past his history in order to suit an agenda.

 

[BarryLyndon]

You can feel empathy for him without agreeing with what he's doing, you just get why he does it.

The guy is kind from the basis, he wants to be. But life didn't want him to be, his passed is terribly shocking. Plus if you notice, he doesn't hurt people who are kind to him and children are so pure that he doesn't do anything wrong in front of them, or it makes him stop. ''I did it because they were awful'' shows how simple and true to him is action is. He just tells the truth.

And at the end, he's really getting what he always wanted but in the ''wrong way''.
He's got a crowd that loves him, cheer him and like what he does.

There's so much nuance in his development it's incredible. The guy just can't contain his emotion, his dance is his way to get his feeling out. It's the way he's reacting to his action. It's so much more deep than any of the comic book interpretation. The way he's acting in the end is unbelievably human. He's just completely disconnected with our world. And I like how people are cheering him but he doesn't give a **** about their political opinion, he just wants to be loved.

And ''Life is a comedy'' takes so much more sens, for him, a young boy getting hit by a drunk driver is a joke, because ''That's Life''.

I also think it's a great criticism of our contemporary quest of being liked and always looking for approbation. (social media)

You can so much analyse about him dancing in a psychological point of view. You can see it as some form of narcissism, of self-esteem or just the way his body lives with his feeling.

This movie guys, is more than a comic book movie, or a movie about Joker. It's more than that, it's a true human tragedy, he's crying for **** sakes at the end. And when he's joker, he's the same guy, he doesn't try to act crazy or to act like a psychopath, he is just at the bottom, but it's where he feels alive.

And his joke ''I hope my death makes more cents than my life'' really has a great profound meaning. The ways he looks at it at the end, before going full angry, really show how he decides that no one will laugh at him anymore. He won't take it and he won't do what he's been planning to do since he had a gun.

I'm not on his side but I'm not on the society's side either, but we get why he's there. This movie really is a masterpiece and really goes where not a lot of movie went.

It is more than an adaption of a comic book character movie, it's a movie point. And a great ****ing one.

 

[BarryLyndon]

This movie is more than a comic book adaptation or a part of a bigger universe, It's a tragedy. There's so much to say about Arthur, his past, his pov and his life. I really can't believe Todd and Joaquin made this movie.

DC really had balls for making this film.