Joker "The Joker" in development with Todd Phillips and Martin Scorsese attached? - Part 2

[Flint Marko]

That is the thing. There really shouldn't be any sympathy.

Yeah I don't see it that way. At all.

You can make a character start as sympathetic and end at completely detestable. It's all in the execution, I'm not going to make any prediction about whether or not they'll successfully do that but to say "there shouldn't be any sympathy" is pretty close-minded.

 

[Boy Scout]

People also claim he might've raped Barbara Gordon in Killing Joke and I think that story was made canon at some point. I never saw the rape thing, but I've read people who did

You know I never really thought of Joker as a rapist. Domestic abusers for sure obviously. But yeah I just never thought of it. It wouldn't surpise me if he did.

Personally, I don’t see him getting any enjoyment out of it. Not even in the sense that he knows that doing it would seriously affect whoever he’s trying to get one over on. There’s a certain arrogance I’ve always associated with The Joker and in my head, rape is “beneath” him.

But like you said: wouldn’t surprise me if it was ever confirmed that he had done it at some point. But I don’t ever need it to even be hinted at, because there are some things you just don’t need to comment on.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yeah I don't see it that way. At all.

You can make a character start as sympathetic and end at completely detestable. It's all in the execution, I'm not going to make any prediction about whether or not they'll successfully do that but to say "there shouldn't be any sympathy" is pretty close-minded.

If this was a Batman film, I could get that. In that scenario, I could see where the balance is coming in. Nolan did that in TDK. I mean, just look at the trailer. By the way, I am saying this while still quite liking the trailer. But I am uneasy with how "cool" it all seems to be trying to be. And I am not even saying that isn't working for the trailer. But this is the Joker and if that is the narrative they push, I worry. Scorsese has always been fantastic at displaying how truly vile most of his main characters are. And even then, we get people who watch Wolf and think he is pushing a narrative of how cool those people were/are.

 

[The Joker]

People also claim he might've raped Barbara Gordon in Killing Joke and I think that story was made canon at some point. I never saw the rape thing, but I've read people who did

I don't know where those people pulled that from. He strips her naked to take photos to drive her father crazy with. People put two and two together and get five. Because she was found naked it must mean Joker raped her, even though the story both tells us and shows us that he just stripped her for some pics to torment Gordon with.

Furthermore no story since has justified this theory of rape. Rape is hardly a little detail that would be glossed over by anyone, especially Barbara herself. When she thinks back on that time, or of the Joker and what he did to her, its always as the man who crippled her. Not the man who raped her and crippled her. Joker himself was never shy of gloating over crippling Barbara to Gordon and Batman. Strange how he never mentions raping her, too. Or is he just too gentlemanly for that lol.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I don't know where those people pulled that from. He strips her naked to take photos to drive her father crazy with. People put two and two together and get five. Because she was found naked it must mean Joker raped her, even though the story both tells us and shows us that he just stripped her for some pics to torment Gordon with.

Yup. The whole point was to paralyze her, and pretty much make Gordons world a living hell. Joker didn't rape her, and its not something he would do so i dont know why people jumped to that conclusion

 

[JimThompson]

Because that is what people do.

 

[Deck Rickard]

I also remember people speculating that he raped Jason Todd before killing him because... he had blood on his pants. Gee, maybe it’s because he was bashing the kid’s head in with a crowbar, but let’s not jump to any conclusions.

 

[Greens]

Are you guys ready for ...

Spoiler

Happy Wayne?

 

[Enriquespy]

Dumb question: Is Martin Scorsese still attached to this??

 

[I Am The Knight]

I don't think so, no.

 

[hellblazer103]

I get why some people would be taken aback to the idea of Joker being a rapist, but I don't see it as being entirely out of the question for the character.

1.) We do see Selina Kyle beaten and hogtied in Dark Knight Returns, plus he uses the mind control lipstick on her and she warns Batman not to let Carrie near him and that he's "worse than ever"

2.) He rapes Johnny's ex-wife in Azzarello's Joker (that **** ain't implied, he legit comes out of the car with his pants undone while she appears traumatized in a fetal position and he tells Croc to pay her for "whatever it was worth" , c'mon y'all)

3.) He's rather sexually provocative in Arkham Asylum ASHOSE to the point where he grabs Batman's ass, asks if Robin "started shaving yet" , and in his diary he writes " fill the streets with murder and rape! Let there be Ecstacy, ECSTACY in the streets ! "

4.) Even in Batman 89/TDK he's rather forceful on both Vicki Vale and Rachel. " A little fight in you... I like that. "

5.) If we're willing to accept the idea of Joker being mentally and physically abusive to Harley... Is it really too much of a stretch to think that there might be some sexual abuse involved too?

So no, I don't see it as being out of the question for him, especially for a character who's supposed to be the most evil Batman villain possible, pretty much the Devil himself. Rape is a form of degradation/humiliation and torture, all of which are right up Joker's alley.

 

[BaelaTargaryen]

 

[The Joker]

I get why some people would be taken aback to the idea of Joker being a rapist, but I don't see it as being entirely out of the question for the character.

1.) We do see Selina Kyle beaten and hogtied in Dark Knight Returns, plus he uses the mind control lipstick on her and she warns Batman not to let Carrie near him and that he's "worse than ever"

2.) He rapes Johnny's ex-wife in Azzarello's Joker (that **** ain't implied, he legit comes out of the car with his pants undone while she appears traumatized in a fetal position and he tells Croc to pay her for "whatever it was worth" , c'mon y'all)

3.) He's rather sexually provocative in Arkham Asylum ASHOSE to the point where he grabs Batman's ass, asks if Robin "started shaving yet" , and in his diary he writes " fill the streets with murder and rape! Let there be Ecstacy, ECSTACY in the streets ! "

4.) Even in Batman 89/TDK he's rather forceful on both Vicki Vale and Rachel. " A little fight in you... I like that. "

5.) If we're willing to accept the idea of Joker being mentally and physically abusive to Harley... Is it really too much of a stretch to think that there might be some sexual abuse involved too?

So no, I don't see it as being out of the question for him, especially for a character who's supposed to be the most evil Batman villain possible, pretty much the Devil himself. Rape is a form of degradation/humiliation and torture, all of which are right up Joker's alley.

1. Beaten and hog tied doesn't imply rape, and mind control lipstick doesn't make him a rapist any more than Ivy using her kiss to poison and control people does. Selina warning Batman to keep a child away from the Joker is a perfectly legit warning. He was more dangerous than ever. That doesn't imply sexual predator. Like he killed a whole boy scout troop with poison cotton candy for goodness sake. Why did it seem so strange Selina warned Batman to keep Carrie away from him? I mean who wouldn't warn someone to keep a child away from the Joker.

2. That is the only legit example. The only one in Joker's entire history.

3. That's Joker being playful, just like he refers to Batman as darling or sweetie in other stories e.g.

He's showing his morbid affection/obsession with Batman. Doesn't mean he wants to rape him.

4. He is not sexually forceful in either of those movies, and never came across that way. In B'89 he is more obsessed stalker. He seems more interested in spraying Vicki's face with acid than copping a feel of her ass or boobs. He could have raped Vicki any time he liked. For example, nothing was stopping him from whisking her out of her apartment after he shot Wayne and taking her back to his place to rape her. But he never did. In TDK his "little fight in you" line is simply a witty comeback to Rachel kneeing him in the gut.

5. Yes it is. Mental and physical abuse and sexual abuse are apples and oranges. Joker mentally and physically abuses lots of people. For instance are you going to tell me he raped Tim Drake in Batman Beyond Return of the Joker? Harley is hardly unique in being abused by Joker mentally and physically. She's just the doormat who thinks she loves him and keeps going back for more.

Joker doesn't use sex to degrade or torture people. Its not his style. He'd rather mutilate, torture, mentally abuse etc. As evil as he is, sexual crimes have always been off his radar. The only one time in his entire history, both on screen and off, was in that Azaraello Joker GN. Its why it stuck out like a sore thumb. He's never done anything like that before. Saying Joker is so evil like the devil that he could rape someone doesn't mean he actually would. I never understood why some people, like those who conjured up the baseless theory that he raped Barbara in TKJ, try to perpetuate it. If there was legit evidence of a history of it, then fair enough.

 

[The Joker]

"I think it’s a great character study that got a DC name slapped on it, my issue with it was it didn’t scream “this has to be a Joker movie”".

About what I am expecting. Hence why I am thinking of this as a 'What if' type story. Very happy to hear that there's a scene in the climax that mirrors some stuff in TDK.

 

[terry78]

This isn't really something you can market like a Venom or Suicide Squad. This is more for comic book fans that have read and watched multiple incarnations of Joker for years and just want to see what is going on in his head, as this is probably something he's just concocting but with bits and pieces of accuracy.

 

[Gothamsknight]

sound great to me, tbh. It's another adaption of the character and another take on the origin story. very happy to hear that it pulls from The killing Joke and The Dark Knight. I'm wondering what part of Jokers scenes in The Dark Knight this film is gonna pull from?

 

[Pennywise]

Still like what I’m hearing!

 

[Slade W]

I don't know where those people pulled that from. He strips her naked to take photos to drive her father crazy with. People put two and two together and get five. Because she was found naked it must mean Joker raped her, even though the story both tells us and shows us that he just stripped her for some pics to torment Gordon with.

Furthermore no story since has justified this theory of rape. Rape is hardly a little detail that would be glossed over by anyone, especially Barbara herself. When she thinks back on that time, or of the Joker and what he did to her, its always as the man who crippled her. Not the man who raped her and crippled her. Joker himself was never shy of gloating over crippling Barbara to Gordon and Batman. Strange how he never mentions raping her, too. Or is he just too gentlemanly for that lol.

Sorry for quoting an old post.

At the end of TKJ he says "I shot a defenseless girl. I terrorized an old man" He never mentions rape. If he had raped her, I am sure he would have mentioned it.

 

[Guts]

I get why some people would be taken aback to the idea of Joker being a rapist, but I don't see it as being entirely out of the question for the character.


3.) He's rather sexually provocative in Arkham Asylum ASHOSE to the point where he grabs Batman's ass, asks if Robin "started shaving yet" , and in his diary he writes " fill the streets with murder and rape! Let there be Ecstacy, ECSTACY in the streets ! "

3. That's Joker being playful, just like he refers to Batman as darling or sweetie in other stories e.g.

He's showing his morbid affection/obsession with Batman. Doesn't mean he wants to rape him.

Except the script mentions it as being aggressively sexual. Also an early draft of the comic had the Joker as a transvestite.

 

[Guts]

The **** is an "incel?"

 

[Boom]

I'm done.

 

[The Joker]

Except the script mentions it as being aggressively sexual. Also an early draft of the comic had the Joker as a transvestite.

Yeah except if you look at the context of this "sexually aggressive" act it tells you it was done simply because "He knows exactly how to rattle Batman". Its telling you right there in detail he did it to intimidate Batman - "He has precisely discerned how to make Batman most uncomfortable, most intimidated". Not because he wants to get in his Bat-pants to rape him. There's no sexual desires here. That's just Joker doing what he does best. Getting under the skin. And all he had to do was slap Batman's butt.

It doesn't matter what the early draft had. Early drafts of stories, whether they're comics, movies, books or what ever can have all kinds of crazy stuff that is a million miles off from what ended up being the final draft. What we got in the end is all that counts. What we got was Joker simply slapping Batman's butt to rattle his cage.

 

[-JKR-]

Dumb question: Is Martin Scorsese still attached to this??

Indirectly. His longtime collaborator and producer Emma Tillinger Koskoff is. I think she and Scorsese share a production company.

 

[Omegabat]

I don't know where those people pulled that from. He strips her naked to take photos to drive her father crazy with. People put two and two together and get five. Because she was found naked it must mean Joker raped her, even though the story both tells us and shows us that he just stripped her for some pics to torment Gordon with.

Furthermore no story since has justified this theory of rape. Rape is hardly a little detail that would be glossed over by anyone, especially Barbara herself. When she thinks back on that time, or of the Joker and what he did to her, its always as the man who crippled her. Not the man who raped her and crippled her. Joker himself was never shy of gloating over crippling Barbara to Gordon and Batman. Strange how he never mentions raping her, too. Or is he just too gentlemanly for that lol.

You'd be surprised at how common this is among comic fans. Paul Dini wrote a story in Detective Comics several years ago in which Poison Ivy brutally murdered several people. Those corpses merged to become one monster and decided to hunt Ivy down. So in one scene the monster grabs and pulls it towards her, there are certain fans who think Dini had that thing rape Ivy lol, even though in the very next page Batman attacks it.
Similarly, certain Talia al Ghul fans think Bane raped her in the Bane of the Demon even though their only act of intercourse was purely consensual.

 

[Omegabat]

I'm pleased that TKJ and TDK are their primary influences, would love a bit of BTAS and Morrison's Arkham Joker but I'll take what they're giving. Thank God they dont seem to be going for Azzarello's Joker, that thing is seriously bad.