Joker "The Joker" in development with Todd Phillips and Martin Scorsese attached? - Part 2

[BarryLyndon]

Plus, it's so rare theses days, pure movie, with real effects and real locations... Just saw once upon a time in Hollywood, like it or not, it's pure cinema.

Doesn't give a **** about the rules, does what he wants in term of story, there's real character developpement and it makes the crowd react (seen it two times, the people gets crazy at the end).

I think Joker will follow this, being something unique in terms of cinema first... Todd Phillips really seems like he's going all in on this one. The empire interview was amazing, the guy just wants to make a good movie.

We do not see much of it nowadays. Everything looks the same, even when it tries not to.

I really need to see this movie haha

and some people are expecting a lot, but w shouldn't be afraid to not love it like we thought we would... or being angry because it's not what we thought it would be.

At the end, this is what I think a movie is supposed to be... And there's not a ton of those since a long time.

 

[Hollis Mason]

Luthor's not crazy. Portraying him as such would be a mis-step, I think. He does have Superman Derangement Syndrome.

He's kinda crazy. I read some comics about him and his views and methods to do things are truly scary. Not crazy in a Joker style, but crazy as someone so arrogant and narcissist to the point of beign jealous of Superman because he makes him feel mortal and could do anything to stop him/kill him. His views remind me to Ozymandias from Watchmen. If he's not crazy, he definitely has some mental issues.

 

[JimThompson]

He's kinda crazy. I read some comics about him and his views and methods to do things are truly scary. Not crazy in a Joker style, but crazy as someone so arrogant and narcissist to the point of beign jealous of Superman because he makes him feel mortal and could do anything to stop him/kill him. His views remind me to Ozymandias from Watchmen.

If that is your definition of crazy, then everyone is crazy in some sense.

 

[Hollis Mason]

If that is your definition of crazy, then everyone is crazy in some sense.

Well, i think you must be crazy if you want to kill someone that has done nothing to you. Read this article. Dude has done some messed up ****.
The Worst Things Lex Luthor Has Ever Done

 

[JimThompson]

Well, i think you must be crazy if you want to kill someone that has done nothing to you. Read this article. Dude has done some messed up ****.
The Worst Things Lex Luthor Has Ever Done

So has Superman...see Red Son.

BTW...CBR? Really?

 

[BarryLyndon]

Yeah I got that reference, and it is a nice one! But they said it isn't inspired by any comic books, so it can't go there.

My theory is maybe because of the subway murders, he is a wanted criminal but we can't get him because he had make up on his face. People (poor) are defending him, praising him and he likes it (because people never liked him, being a loser and mentally ill person) but he then realize they don't really like him, they like the guy in the make up, and I think this is what happens on the tv show, this is when he realize everything. And then he gives them what they wanted : The Joker.

It's much more deeper than that for sure, but in terms of structure, that is what I get from the trailer and interviews. Plus it fit the ''tragic story'' and the ''sad'' descriptions while getting the ''dark'' and ''twisted'' we all want.

 

[JimThompson]

Yeah I got that reference, and it is a nice one! But they said it isn't inspired by any comic books, so it can't go there.

My theory is maybe because of the subway murders, he is a wanted criminal but we can't get him because he had make up on his face. People (poor) are defending him, praising him and he likes it (because people never liked him, being a loser and mentally ill person) but he then realize they don't really like him, they like the guy in the make up, and I think this is what happens on the tv show, this is when he realize everything. And then he gives them what they wanted : The Joker.

It's much more deeper than that for sure, but in terms of structure, that is what I get from the trailer and interviews. Plus it fit the ''tragic story'' and the ''sad'' descriptions while getting the ''dark'' and ''twisted'' we all want.

We will see where it goes. Batman the Animated Series got this one right, I think. When it comes to the Joker, expect the unexpected.

 

[Hollis Mason]

So has Superman...see Red Son.

BTW...CBR? Really?

How does Superman doing bad stuff in an alternate universe make Luthor less evil and insane? you know he is a villain, right? He is not an anti-hero or something like that If you do stuff like that, you are insane, or have mental problems. Read Lex Luthor: Unauthorized Biography. Or his comic from Brian Azzarello. Dude is evil.
In Lex Luthor: Man of Steel, Luthor engineers the Toyman into blowing up a daycare centre simply because he wanted to create a situation where Superman is seen to be saving the life of a mass child killer. In 52 (Rain of the Superman), LexCorp develops the Everyman Project, a program that can give normal people superpowers. When told by his scientists that he's incompatible with Everyman, Luthor hits the hidden kill-switch on New Year's Eve, causing hundreds of people to drop out of the sky. He also has collaborated with lots of villains like Brainiac, performs horrible experiments on people, kills others, sells arms to rogue governments and terror groups, and so many crazy ****...

Difference between Joker and him is that Joker knows he is insane, and Luthor thinks he is a good guy doing right, just like every crazy monster in history.
Also, CBR isn't that bad... right?

 

[JimThompson]

How does Superman doing bad stuff in an alternate universe make Luthor less evil and insane? you know he is a villain, right? He is not an anti-hero or something like that If you do stuff like that, you are insane, or have mental problems. Read Lex Luthor: Unauthorized Biography. Or his comic from Brian Azzarello. Dude is evil.
In Lex Luthor: Man of Steel, Luthor engineers the Toyman into blowing up a daycare centre simply because he wanted to create a situation where Superman is seen to be saving the life of a mass child killer. In 52 (Rain of the Superman), LexCorp develops the Everyman Project, a program that can give normal people superpowers. When told by his scientists that he's incompatible with Everyman, Luthor hits the hidden kill-switch on New Year's Eve, causing hundreds of people to drop out of the sky.

Difference between Joker and him is that Joker knows he is insane, and Luthor thinks he is a good guy doing right, just like every crazy monster in history.
Also, CBR isn't that bad... right?

You are insane if you think CBR is not "bad."

Look, I get it. You think Luthor is nuts. I think it is a mis-read of the character. It is not that I see Luthor as being an anti-hero; I just do not think he is insane.

 

[Hollis Mason]

You are insane if you think CBR is not "bad."

Look, I get it. You think Luthor is nuts. I think it is a mis-read of the character. It is not that I see Luthor as being an anti-hero; I just do not think he is insane.

I mean, you have the right to think whatever you want, i guess. But he is still a villain that is willing to kill and make innocent people suffer. If you think a sane person would do that then i guess it's your point of view, but i can't agree.

 

[JimThompson]

I mean, you have the right to think whatever you want, i guess. But he is still a villain that is willing to kill and make innocent people suffer. If you think a sane person would do that then i guess it's your point of view, but i can't agree.

You are really not listening to me, are you?

 

[Hollis Mason]

The things i heard about this film is that it feels like an indie masterpiece. There is no good guy here. The main character is nothing close to a hero. It is realistic and dark AF. I heard from 3 guy that creepy is the perfect word for it. It's something totally different from what we have seen before.

 

[Hollis Mason]

You are really not listening to me, are you?

Listening to what? you haven't made any point to defend your opinion. I shared examples and you just dismiss them and keep being defensive.

 

[JimThompson]

Listening to what? you haven't made any point to defend your opinion. I shared examples and you just dismiss them and keep being defensive.

Please quote where I said anything like Luthor is not a villain.

 

[Hollis Mason]

Please quote where I said anything like Luthor is not a villain.

Stop being dismissed. We are talking about Luthor being crazy, you said he's not crazy. I said he is, because he has done some messed up **** and hurts people and crazy (mentally ill people) do those kind of things. They lack empathy. Luthor has sociopathic tendencias. He doesn't show remorse for the things he does, no matter how cruel and terrible they are. he is narcissist, he is arrogant to a HIGH level. That is a sociopath. A sociopath is a mental ill person. Hence, Luthor may be insane. Like the time he killed Atomica in cold blood. A murderer or a person that is willing to murder innocent people is a mentally ill person, hence, a crazy person. Do you understand now?

 

[JimThompson]

Stop being dismissed. We are talking about Luthor being crazy, you said he's not crazy. I said he is, because he has done some messed up **** and hurts people and crazy (mentally ill people) do those kind of things. They lack empathy. Luthor has sociopathic tendencias. He doesn't show remorse for the things he does, no matter how cruel and terrible they are. he is narcissit, he is arrogant to a HIGH level. That is a sociopath.

Physician, heal thyself. I said we simply disagree about this. While I agree Luthor is arrogant and narcissistic, I think "crazy" is pushing it.

By the way, Luthor does not lack empathy. He has shown it on many occasions...but he does have the Shakespearean flaw of needing to be "the man." He is like Iago in a lot of ways.

 

[Hollis Mason]

Physician, heal thyself. I said we simply disagree about this. While I agree Luthor is arrogant and narcissistic, I think "crazy" is pushing it.

By the way, Luthor does not lack empathy. He has shown it on many occasions...but he does have the Shakespearean flaw of needing to be "the man." He is like Iago in a lot of ways.

Agree to disagree. That's why i would love a movie to explore Luthor. He is such a complex character. He has many points right about Superman. A man like that with so much power is dangerous AF.

 

[JimThompson]

Agree to disagree. That's why i would love a movie to explore Luthor. He is such a complex character. He has many points right about Superman. A man like that with so much power is dangerous AF.

Thank you. And of course he is dangerous. He is a fascinating character study.

 

[hellblazer103]

Luthor has sociopathic tendencias. He doesn't show remorse for the things he does, no matter how cruel and terrible they are. he is narcissist, he is arrogant to a HIGH level. That is a sociopath. A sociopath is a mental ill person. Hence, Luthor may be insane. Like the time he killed Atomica in cold blood. A murderer or a person that is willing to murder innocent people is a mentally ill person, hence, a crazy person. Do you understand now?

Except sociopaths/psychopaths/whatever you wanna call them aren't crazy. They're well aware of what they're doing and the reality around them, and they know right from wrong. A crazy person lacks those things. They're basically usually pretty sane, they just have no conscience/empathy like you mentioned. That doesn't mean they're psychotic. A personality disorder does not exactly always mean a mental disorder.


That's actually why I don't think The Joker is crazy at all, moreso pretending to be crazy to keep getting put in Arkham and mislead people, and there're even a few stories that share this theory.

 

[Hollis Mason]

Except sociopaths/psychopaths/whatever you wanna call them aren't crazy. They're well aware of what they're doing and the reality around them, and they know right from wrong. A crazy person lacks those things. They're basically usually pretty sane, they just have no conscience/empathy like you mentioned. That doesn't mean they're psychotic. A personality disorder does not exactly always mean a mental disorder.


That's actually why I don't think The Joker is crazy at all, moreso pretending to be crazy to keep getting put in Arkham and mislead people, and there're even a few stories that share this theory.

But sociopathy and psycopathy are reconized as mental chronic conditions for what i know. I studied psychology but that was a long time ago, maybe it changed. What i remember is that Antisocial personality disorders are mental ilness. By definition, crazy means insane or mentally deranged or mentall ill. Sociopaths and Psycopaths are crazy people. They seem like normal people, but they lack of empathy and remorse is a big mental problem. Those two are reconized in the ICD (International Classification of DIseases). A sane person, by default, feels remorse. It's something natural. Remorse for killing even more so. But a person that lacks that feeling is not a normal one. He may seem normal, but it's a pretty serious issue. Still, a sociopath or psycopath can have a normal life with help. I know a guy who have sociopath tendencies but is still a good guy. Difference is that Luthor in the comic, has already killed people in cold blood and felt no remorse about it. That is a serious display of mental illness. Joker has also done TERRIBLE things. Dude has a lot of issues. And he seems to enjoy killing people. That's even worse. A murderer is a crazy person by default. You don't "pretend" to enjoy killing people. If you do something like that, you are crazy. The fact that you are able to do something like that already shows a lot of your health. A normal person can't be able to kill and if they do so, there is a big chance they may be traumatized by it unless it was in self-defense or something like that. Joker keeps doing it to innocent people because he likes it. It was even implied in the Injustice comics that he has killed kids. He even tried to kill babies in No Man's Land. Jesus, he beat Jason Todd, a kid, to death and laughed while he did it. Dude isn't pretending, he is a monster and a murderer. That doesn't mean he isn't a great character, because he is. But he doesn't seem to understand feelings like love, compassion, empathy or even care about anyone but himself (and Batman).

But you may be right. I will study more about it and see if something changed. Thanks for the info. I really like this topic. I also remember there was a big difference between psychotic tendencies.

 

[Hollis Mason]

Anyway, this topic has made me appreciate even more the script. It truly does a great job exploring that topic and showing how terrible it is. You guys will love it.

 

[Jekecy]

Anyway, this topic has made me appreciate even more the script. It truly does a great job exploring that topic and showing how terrible it is. You guys will love it.

I jumped around a bit on the script leak, but never fully committed. Can you clarify one thing for me; is there a point where Joker’s voice is described as “shifting” after his transformation?

I’m curious if there was any effort on the script level to delineate between the Arthur and Joker personas. From what I’ve seen/heard, it seems like Joaquin is only going to be using one voice, which is a bit of a disappointment.

 

[Orb]

I jumped around a bit on the script leak, but never fully committed. Can you clarify one thing for me; is there a point where Joker’s voice is described as “shifting” after his transformation?

I’m curious if there was any effort on the script level to delineate between the Arthur and Joker personas. From what I’ve seen/heard, it seems like Joaquin is only going to be using one voice, which is a bit of a disappointment.

Nah there doesnt seem to be a shift

 

[The Shape]

Nah there doesnt seem to be a shift

That doesn't mean Joaqiun won't play the "Joker" with a different attitude/voice than Fleck.

 

[Orb]

That doesn't mean Joaqiun won't play the "Joker" with a different attitude/voice than Fleck.

Oh I'm sure Phoenix will do something with the performance. The dialogue and manner of speaking is consistent in the script. There's no big difference between "Arthur" and "Joker" aside from change of clothes. It's also a very gradual transformation so its harder to spot when Arthur ends and Joker starts.