Joker "The Joker" in development with Todd Phillips and Martin Scorsese attached? - Part 2

[Doc Samson]

Unfortunately at the show I attended, there were several guys (i’d say 18-20sh) who reacted to the film by saying to their friends that they are all Team Joker now. What a critically wrong and totally off base reaction to have to the film if there is one.

And this is what the critics were trying to speaking on, though sometimes in a juvenile manner themselves.

I'm an 80's baby, hold Commando and Terminator in high esteem to this day. Saw all the Rambos, love John Wick and Deadpool so on, but I walked out of this movie agreeing with some of the the critics' concerns. It's not the amount of violence, it's the visceral and realistic way it's depicted.

When he shoots Murray, it's made to look real. There isn't that balletic, rehearsed movement of Wick or Deadpool, and the fact that the whole theater cheered every time he killed someone completely misses the point of the violence. Joker attempts to justify and sympathize with someone suffering the same type of mental illness that a lot of mass shooters suffer from. How anyone can't understand that concern is beyond me...

 

[Gothamsknight]

At this point, im not caring about any more of this so called "controversy". I loved the film and that's all that matters

 

[-JKR-]

And this is what the critics were trying to speaking on, though sometimes in a juvenile manner themselves.

I'm an 80's baby, hold Commando and Terminator in high esteem to this day. Saw all the Rambos, love John Wick and Deadpool so on, but I walked out of this movie agreeing with some of the the critics' concerns. It's not the amount of violence, it's the visceral and realistic way it's depicted.

When he shoots Murray, it's made to look real. There isn't that balletic, rehearsed movement of Wick or Deadpool, and the fact that the whole theater cheered every time he killed someone completely misses the point of the violence. Joker attempts to justify and sympathize with someone suffering the same type of mental illness that a lot of mass shooters suffer from. How anyone can't understand that concern is beyond me...

You need to be really dumb to think that the movie justifies Arthur's criminal actions.

 

[Doc Samson]

You need to be really dumb to think that the movie justifies Arthur's criminal actions.

Cute...but no, I'm far from that. And it absolutely justifies it, in fact, if not for Philips himself saying that it's possible that this isn't the real Joker, then I would hate this film as a "Joker" movie because it goes against character.

He kills nobody but the people who've wronged him in some way. If that's not justification, I don't know what is...

 

[-JKR-]

That's a pretty dumb and superficial POV. And you do realize that this is a story about Arthur slowly BECOMING the Joker? And that in the last scene he kills the psychiatrist for no reason at all? In that scene he has finally and fully turned into the Joker.

 

[Doc Samson]

If you take that for face value, yeah he does. I don't.

But more to the point, we're not talking about what he'll be in the future, we're talking about what he is in this movie, and this movie justifies his actions. Period. The only thing dumb is not being able to see that clearly...

 

[-JKR-]

It doesn't.
It invites you to think about several different topic, including mental health and the lack of empathy in our society. You can feel empathy for Arthur to a certain extent, but it doesn't, in any way, justify his criminal actions.

 

[Doc Samson]

How? You watch him and you're made to feel sympathetic and empathy towards him.

So when he finally reacts, against the people who've wronged him, it's justifiable because they're portrayed as horrible people who helped create this monster. Idiots aren't cheering and carrying on at theaters when he kills somebody for no reason. I don't see how this is hard to grasp. But we can agree to disagree...

 

[-JKR-]

Because it's perfectly possible to create a division between Arthur's mental state and his need for help (and empathy) and the moment he crosses the line.
The fact that I feel bad for Arthur and his mental state and life doesn't mean that I justify his actions. Nor does the movie ask you to.

 

[Maze]

Understanding has never been agreeing with the actions of somebody.

 

[Prettyricky]

Because it's perfectly possible to create a division between Arthur's mental state and his need for help (and empathy) and the moment he crosses the line.
The fact that I feel bad for Arthur and his mental state and life doesn't mean that I justify his actions. Nor does the movie ask you to.

It came off as if this all could have been avoided. If the state had helped him more with medicine and a better doctor to talk too he might have come out ok. His living style, ill mother, crappy job, he tried to make the best with what he was giving but when things he needed or enjoyed doing were slowly taken away it lead to his demise. His job seemed like something that gave him purpose and enjoyment like the kids hospita.

 

[Doc Samson]

Because it's perfectly possible to create a division between Arthur's mental state and his need for help (and empathy) and the moment he crosses the line.
The fact that I feel bad for Arthur and his mental state and life doesn't mean that I justify his actions. Nor does the movie ask you to.

The movie absolutely does or he wouldn't have gotten (or imagined getting) a literal ovation after everything he did.

For all the talk of this being like Taxi Driver, that's probably the biggest difference, Travis Bickle is a beat down man too, but at no point do you feel any real empathy towards him because the movie does a better job at making sure he's not that sympathetic.

Understanding has never been agreeing with the actions of somebody.

Understanding someone can make you sympathetic to the point that you may not fully condone their actions, but you get them.

The Joker, fundamentally, is not someone you get or understand because everything he does has no real point or reasoning to it, and usually it's random. Only having Joker murder the people who've done wrong to him, IMO, clearly tries to make you feel sorry for him and his actions to a certain extent.

This is why as a Proto-Joker film, or a film where he's just telling stories to make himself seem justified to his therapist, I can consider a classic. Where otherwise, I would find it horrible in that it depicts someone completely against their character. People still criticize Batman 89 and Returns as not "Batman" movies for the amount of people he killed, I don't see how this is any different...

It came off as if this all could have been avoided. If the state had helped him more with medicine and a better doctor to talk too he might have come out ok. His living style, ill mother, crappy job, he tried to make the best with what he was giving but when things he needed or enjoyed doing were slowly taken away it lead to his demise. His job seemed like something that gave him purpose and enjoyment like the kids hospital.

I agree....and it's also why I feel the way I do about his characterization. And to be clear, I enjoy it and know they had to do something like this or else the movie would be sheer mayhem.

 

[FunkMiller]

I think it's funny how hard a lot of these outlets are trying to save face because this isn't the movie they thought it was. Saw a clickbait article about how Garry Glitter is gonna get royalties from it. Who the hell cares?

A convicted paedophile earning money from the use of his material in a motion picture is disgusting.

All other considerations aside, it was a stupid and quite reprehensible move on Phillips’s part to include that song, and it’s right he’s being criticised for it.

 

[-JKR-]

I don't agree with critics of Tim Burton's Batman movies, either.

 

[Maze]

The movie absolutely does or he wouldn't have gotten (or imagined getting) a literal ovation after everything he did.

For all the talk of this being like Taxi Driver, that's probably the biggest difference, Travis Bickle is a beat down man too, but at no point do you feel any real empathy towards him because the movie does a better job at making sure he's not that sympathetic.



Understanding someone can make you sympathetic to the point that you may not fully condone their actions, but you get them.

The Joker, fundamentally, is not someone you get or understand because everything he does has no real point or reasoning to it, and usually it's random. Only having Joker murder the people who've done wrong to him, IMO, clearly tries to make you feel sorry for him and his actions to a certain extent.

That's your reasonning, you dont want to see the Joker painted like that, and that's ok. That's another subject. anyways, i didn't felt it like that. i wanted to stop him. I get where he comes from, i was sad for him, but i didn't want him to do any of this things

 

[Maze]

The movie absolutely does or he wouldn't have gotten (or imagined getting) a literal ovation after everything he did.

For all the talk of this being like Taxi Driver, that's probably the biggest difference, Travis Bickle is a beat down man too, but at no point do you feel any real empathy towards him because the movie does a better job at making sure he's not that sympathetic.

I felt empathy too for Travis. Even if him being a racist *******, he was a lost man .. to stop

 

[Maze]

T
This is why as a Proto-Joker film, or a film where he's just telling stories to make himself seem justified to his therapist, I can consider a classic. Where otherwise, I would find it horrible in that it depicts someone completely against their character. People still criticize Batman 89 and Returns as not "Batman" movies for the amount of people he killed, I don't see how this is any different...
.

I have criticism about batman 89, but it is not one of those.

 

[Doc Samson]

I don't agree with critics of Tim Burton's Batman movies, either.

I never did, although that's probably because I've always considered them like Elseworld tales, similar to this, except I really feel the strong possibility that he's just making a lot of this up, in which case that's very Joker to me. After all, everyone is the hero of their own story....

That's your reasonning, you dont want to see the Joker painted like that, and that's ok. That's another subject. anyways, i didnt' felt it like that. i wanted to stop him. I get where he comes from, but i didn't want him to do any of this things

Ehh, I think it goes hand in hand, all I'm really saying is the thought that the critics just conjured this up out of thin air isn't really correct, it's there if someone chooses to see it. Everyone is allowed to receive in their own way, which is why this movie is sooo good.

 

[Maze]

Well, you know what my line of thinking is about those critics ( many of them havent even seen the movie, when they said that) Anyways, ask yourself one question about it : this is especially an American question, because here in Europe almost nobody is talking "how dangerous is the movie" i think it's actually the contrary, it's a cautionnary tale

 

[Maze]

For me elsweworld tale doesn't mean a lot : there have been so much reinvention that many tales are "elseworld" ( i mean a Spiderman that Tony Stark is backing almost at the beginning of his career? good tale are good tale. ( hoping yes that the character essence is not betrayed )

 

[Doc Samson]

ask yourself one question about it : this is especially an American question, because here in Europe almost nobody is talking "how dangerous is the movie" i think it's actually the contrary, it's a cautionnary tale

I think it is on a lot of levels, I think it could've leaned more into that direction but again, the cautionary stuff is definitely there if one chooses to accept that.

I thought it was pretty slick that they leave it ambiguous if he kills Sophie or not, because confirming that he indeed kills her for no reason at all would make him a complete monster and definitively change how you feel about him after....

For me elsweworld tale doesn't mean a lot : there have been so much reinvention that many tales are "elseworld" ( i mean a Spiderman that Tony Stark is backing almost at the beginning of his career? good tale are good tale. ( hoping yes that the character essence is not betrayed )

When they change enough things, I sort of have to consider it Elseworlds or it starts hurting the movie for me. I actually think the MCU Spiderman fits that bill, in that case for the better, because I love how they did Mysterio and Vulture (and Aunt May !)

And honestly a lot of things in comics come from someone taking the character and creating something new that works so well they just adopt it down the line. This type of Joker could be that in some ways...

 

[Maze]

Well dunno, i dont agree with your first point, but hey could be wrong ( i'm not going to tell you that i think i may be wrong,, it would be hyppocritical ahaha but hey we never know )

That he killed her or not for me, as horrible it is, it doesnt change the fact that the guy has totally lost his mind and that he becomes this monster. Not just because, of those who bullied or harrased him, because when he crossed the line, he felt good about it. He found his "calling"

 

[Maze]

When they change enough things, I sort of have to consider it Elseworlds or it starts hurting the movie for me. I actually think the MCU Spiderman fits that bill, in that case for the better, because I love how they did Mysterio and Vulture (and Aunt May !)

And honestly a lot of things in comics come from someone taking the character and creating something new that works so well they just adopt it down the line. This type of Joker could be that in some ways...

Exactly ! Hey, we agree ahaha i mean Superman flew for the first time in the Fleisheir cartoons.

 

[The Guard]

During my late showing last night, police had to come into the theatre to remove a man who was laughing maniacally/uncontrollably. So that was interesting.

Still trying to figure out how I feel about the film. Feels like it's about Trump, though I suppose the approach used can be more broadly applied.

I do think people are confusing Joker eventually coming to "enjoy" what he does for the movie glorifying what he does. There's a difference.

 

[Arachnerd]

Uh, I didn't get that. At all. If anything, it brought more awareness to mental health issues and how seriously we should treat that subject and the people afflicted by it.

Just because there's a contemporary theme to it does not mean the movie was about Trump.