Joker "The Joker" in development with Todd Phillips and Martin Scorsese attached? - Part 2

[Zarex]

Lol.

You do realize that directors don't have much freedom within the MCU?

Taika Waititi, James Gunn and Ryan Coogler share a different opinion:

Thor: Ragnarok director Taika Waititi was shocked by the freedom Marvel gave him, "They let me do whatever I wanted" — The Disorderly

https://bamsmackpow.com/2017/07/28/...r-talks-creative-freedom-marvel-studios/QUOTE

Guardians of the Galaxy 2: James Gunn Says Marvel Offers Creative Freedom

 

[-JKR-]

You're basically talking about exceptions, especially in James Gunn's and Taika Waititi's case. Personally, I didn't feel much of Ryan Coogler's influence in "Black Panther."
Anyway, oftentimes Marvel Studios' graphic team has already put together the entire visual style for the movie, from costumes to gadgets and environments, and even completed pre-viz for the action and effects scenes --- and that's BEFORE A SINGLE DIRECTOR IS EVEN BEING CONSIDERED.
Marvel Studios has never been the most director-friendly studio, and that's a fact. That doesn't mean that a peaceful collaboration isn't possible, but that their movies have to fit a certain style, feel and criteria. The franchise is handled like a TV series, where the showrunner (Kevin Feige) has the final word and shapes the movies, but guest directors come in and do their job to add another episodes. And sometimes there's also some space for a little experimentation.
A better example of hiring great directors and have them fullfill their vision would be Tim Burton and Christopher Nolan on the Batman movies, Sam Raimi on his first two Spider-Man movies, etc. That's where you really feel that the studio hired a talented filmmaker, and let him put his stamp on these iconic characters.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I'm so happy that this film is on top of the world. It absolutely deserves every bit of it and I think this will send a message to DC for them to do different and unique things.

 

[geosphere]

I hate to even make the comparisons since it's become such a cliche, but they really should take a cue from the MCU, not in regards to their business model, but hiring decent directors and writers to take on characters but without a massive amount of studio interference. They don't have to intersect, just be standalone stories until they can find somebody to grandfather all that **** together years later.

But isn't the MCU completely executively ran? The MCU is kind of like a show ran franchise. Most of the creative decisions are made by Kevin Feige and his team and the directors brought onboard bring it to life. That is the only way a connected universe could even happen.

 

[-JKR-]

But isn't the MCU completely executively ran? The MCU is kind of like a show ran franchise. Most of the creative decisions are made by Kevin Feige and his team and the directors brought onboard bring it to life. That is the only way a connected universe could even happen.

Yup, it is. Not a very good example.
I'd take the movies by Tim Burton, Sam Raimi, Christopher Nolan, Guillermo Del Toro, etc. and now Todd Phillips as example.
The truth is, superhero movies and comic book adaptations deserve to be developed just like any other movie does. You need to start with a good/great script and pair it with the right director, who needs to have a vision for how to portray said script on the big screen.

 

[geosphere]

I really enjoyed this movie. I would like to see them do similar with Luthor, Deathstroke and Ra's al Ghul. Riddler, Penguin and Scarecrow could be interesting too.

Deathstroke would be KILLER! Did you see the trailer for the Deathstroke cartoon airing on CW Seed? It looks to be for mature audiences and OMG I am there day one for this series!

 

[TheScarecrow]

I hate to even make the comparisons since it's become such a cliche, but they really should take a cue from the MCU, not in regards to their business model, but hiring decent directors and writers to take on characters but without a massive amount of studio interference. They don't have to intersect, just be standalone stories until they can find somebody to grandfather all that **** together years later.

This is very innacurate.

Marvel is notorious for having a formula and providing their directors with almost no flexibility or room for creativity.

WB is a director driven studio and they have only interfered where they thought it was necessary - with Snyder and Ayer. Jenkins, Wan, Phillips, Sandberg, etc. have all been allowed a level of freedom on their films that people who work for Disney could only dream of.

 

[geosphere]

You're basically talking about exceptions, especially in James Gunn's and Taika Waititi's case. Personally, I didn't feel much of Ryan Coogler's influence in "Black Panther."
Anyway, oftentimes Marvel Studios' graphic team has already put together the entire visual style for the movie, from costumes to gadgets and environments, and even completed pre-viz for the action and effects scenes --- and that's BEFORE A SINGLE DIRECTOR IS EVEN BEING CONSIDERED.
Marvel Studios has never been the most director-friendly studio, and that's a fact. That doesn't mean that a peaceful collaboration isn't possible, but that their movies have to fit a certain style, feel and criteria. The franchise is handled like a TV series, where the showrunner (Kevin Feige) has the final word and shapes the movies, but guest directors come in and do their job to add another episodes. And sometimes there's also some space for a little experimentation.
A better example of hiring great directors and have them fullfill their vision would be Tim Burton and Christopher Nolan on the Batman movies, Sam Raimi on his first two Spider-Man movies, etc. That's where you really feel that the studio hired a talented filmmaker, and let him put his stamp on these iconic characters.

To further push the point:
Lucrecia Martel Turned Down 'Black Widow' Because Marvel Said "Don't Worry About The Action Scenes" — Here's Why It's Not Unusual

In case you don't rust Slash Films:
Lucrecia Martel Turned Down ‘Black Widow’ After Marvel Told Her ‘Don’t Worry About’ Action Scenes

 

[TheGuy]

You're basically talking about exceptions, especially in James Gunn's and Taika Waititi's case. Personally, I didn't feel much of Ryan Coogler's influence in "Black Panther."
Anyway, oftentimes Marvel Studios' graphic team has already put together the entire visual style for the movie, from costumes to gadgets and environments, and even completed pre-viz for the action and effects scenes --- and that's BEFORE A SINGLE DIRECTOR IS EVEN BEING CONSIDERED.
Marvel Studios has never been the most director-friendly studio, and that's a fact. That doesn't mean that a peaceful collaboration isn't possible, but that their movies have to fit a certain style, feel and criteria. The franchise is handled like a TV series, where the showrunner (Kevin Feige) has the final word and shapes the movies, but guest directors come in and do their job to add another episodes. And sometimes there's also some space for a little experimentation.
A better example of hiring great directors and have them fullfill their vision would be Tim Burton and Christopher Nolan on the Batman movies, Sam Raimi on his first two Spider-Man movies, etc. That's where you really feel that the studio hired a talented filmmaker, and let him put his stamp on these iconic characters.

Black Panther is great with characters and narrative, but stupidly bad (and great) in some technical aspects (visual effects and lack of distinctive flair). Waititi and Gunn are truly the only ones with unique visions of their films. The Russo Brothers are good, but nowhere near groundbreaking or visionary as claimed by their fans. However, the new directors (Shortland, Zhao and Cretton) of their upcoming films have some good outputs, so I think the MCU could be offering unique outputs down the line.

 

[Invader Joker]

To further push the point:
Lucrecia Martel Turned Down 'Black Widow' Because Marvel Said "Don't Worry About The Action Scenes" — Here's Why It's Not Unusual

In case you don't rust Slash Films:
Lucrecia Martel Turned Down ‘Black Widow’ After Marvel Told Her ‘Don’t Worry About’ Action Scenes

This is a misleading example. Marvel was basically just saying they had a unit that could handle the action sequences if she had a problem with it. It's very common practice and it isn't even a bad thing. That same unit helped The Russo Bros craft their vision in Winter Soldiee.

 

[-JKR-]

Not really misleading, and quite often the case with Marvel Studios.
You do know that more often than not they've already designed the costumes, world and action scenes before a director is on board? Which doesn't leave much space for the directors to bring their vision,style and point of view to the movie.
Of course it's a case by case kind of thing, but let's be honest: Marvel Studios is not very filmmaker-driven and Kevin Feige likes to act as a showrunner on their movies. Which doesn't make them bad, but still, it's apparent and the opposite of what the member who suggested that Warner Bros. should look at how the MCU does it.
And they should not, especially considering how we're in the "Joker" topic, which doesn't have one single thing in common with any of the Marvel Studios movies and their modus operandi.

 

[geosphere]

Back in the day(meaning pre MCU) Action sequences and effects were part of the director's vision! This was true for Zack Snyder(who I am not even much of a fan of unless we're talking about MOS which was fantastic), It was True for the Wachowski brothers who literally pitched the matrix based on the action sequences and the revolutionary effects they wanted to try, it was true for Tim Burton who ALWAYS had his own visual aesthetic, Its true for Wes Anderson who is celebrated for his visuals and visual effects style. directors have ALWAYS been responsible for having the final say of how action sequences and effects should appear in their films. It has not been common practice till very recently and to say otherwise is simply not true.

 

[-JKR-]

Luckily, it's also true post-MCU.
You can notice the difference between Tim Miller directing "Deadpool" and David Leitch directing "Deadpool 2."
You can tell the difference between James Wan's vision for "Aquaman" and David F. Sandberg's vision for "Shazam!". And of course you can tell the difference between all of those movies and Todd Phillips' "Joker."
And we need more of that. In my opinion, Warner Bros. is on the right path. Let Marvel Studios do their Marvel Studios thing.

 

[geosphere]

Not really misleading, and quite often the case with Marvel Studios.
You do know that more often than not they've already designed the costumes, world and action scenes before a director is on board? Which doesn't leave much space for the directors to bring their vision,style and point of view to the movie.
Of course it's a case by case kind of thing, but let's be honest: Marvel Studios is not very filmmaker-driven and Kevin Feige likes to act as a showrunner on their movies. Which doesn't make them bad, but still, it's apparent and the opposite of what the member who suggested that Warner Bros. should look at how the MCU does it.
And they should not, especially considering how we're in the "Joker" topic, which doesn't have one single thing in common with any of the Marvel Studios movies and their modus operandi.

Exactly this is not to attack marvel! I love a good TV Show or a well ran franchise. I actually would like to see DC somehow figure out how to franchise in a similar fashion because at the end of the day I love the Justice League(not talking about the 2017 movie) and would love to see stories told about them together. So anyway, this is not to talk crap about Marvel it's just talking about the reality of how it is ran. Hey, I know it's not popular in this thread but I thought Black Panther was a DAMN good movie. BP is my favorite Marvel film and one of my favorite superhero films ever(TDK takes number one slot for me) so it's not to criticize it's just pointing out the reality.

 

[TheScarecrow]

Luckily, it's also true post-MCU.
You can notice the difference between Tim Miller directing "Deadpool" and David Leitch directing "Deadpool 2."
You can notice the difference between James Wan's vision for "Aquaman" and David F. Sandberg's vision for "Shazam!". And of course you can tell the difference between all of those movies and Todd Phillips' "Joker."
And we need more of that. In my opinion, Warner Bros. is on the right path. Let Marvel Studios do their Marvel Studios thing.

Agreed.

Rather than saying "we need more like Joker!" or "we need more like Wonder Woman", WB is correct in hiring strong filmmakers to come onboard and make diverse films for DC. It's something that Marvel can't beat them at, because the whole structure of Marvel's cinematic universe would crumble.

It's also the reason why there's no singularly great Marvel film (I said it). Everything relies on what came before it for its greatness (Endgame, for example, in and of itself would have no impact).

DC just needs to keep doing what it's doing. Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Shazam, Joker - all vastly different offerings. Upcoming Birds of Prey, Wonder Woman 1984, The Batman and The Suicide Squad look similarly strong and unique. The fact that everyone is up in arms about how "bad" Birds of Prey isn't so bad, as the same thing was said about all of Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Shazam and Joker at various points.

 

[kguillou]

I’m very surprised the general audience, especially overseas general audiences are going to see this over and over again. This is such a downbeat movie I didnt think people would be compelled to rewatch it. Dont get me wrong, i knew this would do very well but scratching a billion? A film like this? A non blockbuster?

 

[-JKR-]

You know, the most surprising aspect of this huge success is that it's really not an action movie AT ALL! It's a psychological thriller and drama. The success of this movie sends all the right signals to studios, which for years have been pushing more and more movies without / light on action onto streaming platforms. There's a hunger for all kinds of movies... ON THE BIG SCREEN.
This isn't just a huge success for "Joker" itself and Warner Bros. It's a huge success for modern cinema.

 

[Zarex]

Not really misleading, and quite often the case with Marvel Studios.
You do know that more often than not they've already designed the costumes, world and action scenes before a director is on board? Which doesn't leave much space for the directors to bring their vision,style and point of view to the movie.
Of course it's a case by case kind of thing, but let's be honest: Marvel Studios is not very filmmaker-driven and Kevin Feige likes to act as a showrunner on their movies. Which doesn't make them bad, but still, it's apparent and the opposite of what the member who suggested that Warner Bros. should look at how the MCU does it.
And they should not, especially considering how we're in the "Joker" topic, which doesn't have one single thing in common with any of the Marvel Studios movies and their modus operandi.

This, like your assertion that Marvel Studios directors have limited creative freedom, is also incorrect. Oscar winners Hannah Beachler and Ruth Carter created Wakanda alongside Ryan Coogler from the ground up. Early Andy Park concept art for Guardians - specifically the design for Rocket - was greatly altered by Gunn when he came on board. And the Kirby designs for Ragnarok were 100% the work of Waititi.

I get that you're excited about Joker's tremendous success. But spreading falsehoods about Marvel Studios - including discounting the words of the folks who actually work there - comes off as a tad petty. Take the win.

 

[-JKR-]

What? Falsehoods? I've already said that it's a case by case thing, but it's been widely reported (and confirmed by directors involved) that Marvel Studios often start working on stuff before a director is on board, down to action sequences. And I've also mentioned that there are exceptions.

And this ain't a DC vs Marvel thing for me. I actually love several MCU movies that even MCU fans don't really love, such as Iron Man 3, Avengers: Age of Ultron and the first Ant-man.

No need to be so defensive. The MCU is NOT a filmmaker-driven franchise. And I don't think anyone can really deny that, and as I've said, it doesn't make the movies bad.

 

[kguillou]

You know, the most surprising aspect of this huge success is that it's really not an action movie AT ALL! It's a psychological thriller and drama. The success of this movie sends all the right signals to studios, which for years have been pushing more and more movies without / light on action onto streaming platforms. There's a hunger for all kinds of movies... ON THE BIG SCREEN.
This isn't just a huge success for "Joker" itself and Warner Bros. It's a huge success for modern cinema.

Exactly! Thats what I’m saying, this is a drama, what other dramas have made this kind of money without action and spectacle? I’m surprised international audiences are latching onto it like this.

 

[-JKR-]

Exactly! Thats what I’m saying, this is a drama, what other dramas have made this kind of money without action and spectacle? I’m surprised international audiences are latching onto it like this.

Why are you so surprised? It's not like international audiences are dumbasses!

 

[Zarex]

What? Falsehoods? I've already said that it's a case by case thing, but it's been widely reported (and confirmed by directors involved) that Marvel Studios often start working on stuff before a director is on board, down to action sequences. And I've also mentioned that there are exceptions.

"Which doesn't leave much space for the directors to bring their vision, style and point of view to the movie" Is a falsehood which has been disputed on many occasions by the folks that actually work at Marvel Studios.

No need to be so defensive. The MCU is NOT a filmmaker-driven franchise. And I don't think anyone can really deny that, and as I've said, it doesn't make the movies bad.

I think we can both agree that Feige hires filmmakers who share his vision of what the MCU should be.

 

[-JKR-]

Yeah, directors are invited to play in Kevin Feige's sandbox. Stepping out of that sandbox is a big no no. Which doesn't exactly translate into much freedom for filmmakers. Which confirms what I said.

Edgar Wright would like to have a word with you after years of development and prep.

But Warner Bros.' previous regime didn't do much better with how they got cold feet and retooled Suicide Squad and Justice League.

 

[Guts]

To further push the point:
Lucrecia Martel Turned Down 'Black Widow' Because Marvel Said "Don't Worry About The Action Scenes" — Here's Why It's Not Unusual

In case you don't rust Slash Films:
Lucrecia Martel Turned Down ‘Black Widow’ After Marvel Told Her ‘Don’t Worry About’ Action Scenes

I found this quote from her to be hilarious.

Companies are interested in female filmmakers but they still think action scenes are for male directors. The first thing I asked them was maybe if they could change the special effects because there’s so many laser lights. I find them horrible. Also the soundtrack of Marvel films is quite horrendous. Maybe we disagree on this but it’s really hard to watch a Marvel film. It’s painful to the ears to watch Marvel films.”

This is a misleading example. Marvel was basically just saying they had a unit that could handle the action sequences if she had a problem with it. It's very common practice and it isn't even a bad thing. That same unit helped The Russo Bros craft their vision in Winter Soldiee.

Well not all directors like to use second units.

 

[geosphere]

What? Falsehoods? I've already said that it's a case by case thing, but it's been widely reported (and confirmed by directors involved) that Marvel Studios often start working on stuff before a director is on board, down to action sequences. And I've also mentioned that there are exceptions.

And this ain't a DC vs Marvel thing for me. I actually love several MCU movies that even MCU fans don't really love, such as Iron Man 3, Avengers: Age of Ultron and the first Ant-man.

No need to be so defensive. The MCU is NOT a filmmaker-driven franchise. And I don't think anyone can really deny that, and as I've said, it doesn't make the movies bad.

OMG MCU people get all up in their feelings if you say one thing that they "feel" is criticism. Nobody was criticizing them. Someone made a comment and we responded to it. My biggest criticism about the MCU is the fandom, to be honest. There is no real way to have an objective conversation with many of them. Take a goddamn chill pill for the love of god!