The Kennedy Thread

[Spider-Bite]

No, he was the one who put Kennedy's proposals into place. Kennedy himself didn't get anything done really because Congress which was filled with conservative Democrats and Republicans didn't want to work with him.

i disagree with that. Kennedy was not president for that long. Proposing it deserves just as much credit as getting it passed.

Regardless of how much of a chunk of the credit he deserves, he proposed the law which passed which propelled this nation into the future.

How can he not get your approval after that? It took balls and guts on a level superior to almost every single politician there is.

And most of the people in office when he proposed it were the same people in office when it was signed.

Was it not a great proposal?

LBJ deserves the vast majority of Kennedy's credit.[/quote]

 

[hippie_hunter]

i disagree with that. Kennedy was not president for that long. Proposing it deserves just as much credit as getting it passed.

Regardless of how much of a chunk of the credit he deserves, he proposed the law which passed which propelled this nation into the future.

How can he not get your approval after that? It took balls and guts on a level superior to almost every single politician there is.

And most of the people in office when he proposed it were the same people in office when it was signed.

Was it not a great proposal?

Don't get me wrong, it's a great proposal. But saying and doing are two different things. Kennedy was a talker and pretty much nothing else.

Personally I think it would have taken even longer for the Civil Rights Act to pass if Kennedy didn't get his head blow off.

As a matter in fact, that's why he's so highly remembered. Assassinated Presidents tend to be more highly remembered than they really should. Take look at Lincoln (who was a great President by the way), he was even less popular than Bush when he was in office (the South hated him and he almost lost re-election) but when he got shot in the head, everyone loved him. Or William McKinley who was weak willed and started a war with Spain on public pressure and flimsier reasons than the ones that started Vietnam and Iraq and he's remembered today as making the United States the imperial power it is today.

 

[Spider-Bite]

when you consider how long it takes to get a law passed I say Kennedy does deserve a lot of credit for the 1964 civil rights act if not most of it.

With regards to Vietnam Lyndon Johnson's secretary of defense believed that had Kennedy not been assisanated it would have been prevented.

It wasn't that Kennedy couldn't get stuff done. It's that the system is designed so that major change wont happen overnight.

 

[hippie_hunter]

when you consider how long it takes to get a law passed I say Kennedy does deserve a lot of credit for the 1964 civil rights act if not most of it.

With regards to Vietnam Lyndon Johnson's secretary of defense believed that had Kennedy not been assisanated it would have been prevented.

It wasn't that Kennedy couldn't get stuff done. It's that the system is designed so that major change wont happen overnight.

Except Kennedy didn't know how to get anything done. LBJ was a doer, not overnight, but he got it done unlike his predecessor.

And Kennedy took the first steps in the Vietnam War.

 

[Spider-Bite]

Don't get me wrong, it's a great proposal. But saying and doing are two different things. Kennedy was a talker and pretty much nothing else.

Personally I think it would have taken even longer for the Civil Rights Act to pass if Kennedy didn't get his head blow off.

As a matter in fact, that's why he's so highly remembered. Assassinated Presidents tend to be more highly remembered than they really should. Take look at Lincoln (who was a great President by the way), he was even less popular than Bush when he was in office (the South hated him and he almost lost re-election) but when he got shot in the head, everyone loved him. Or William McKinley who was weak willed and started a war with Spain on public pressure and flimsier reasons than the ones that started Vietnam and Iraq and he's remembered today as making the United States the imperial power it is today.

I'm pretty sure it took a very long time after Lincon's death for everybody to love him. The whole reason he was killed was because so many people wanted him dead.

In fact I'm sure nobody doubts that during the civil war the south was trying to kill him. I doubt that as soon as they succeeded they now suddenly loved the man they had put so much effort into killing.

I really don't believe Lincoln's death is responsible for even a small part of why he is so beloved.

edit... I just wanted to add that I now understand your feelings about Kennedy on the civil rights act. Before I was really just kind of confused when I originally heard what you thought about Kennedy.

I still feel that your feelings towards Kennedy would be kind of like saying Obama wasn't able to get things done during his first term as president, when he hasn't even taken the oath yet.

kennedy set the Kennedy/Johnson presidency on the right track. He did get the foot in the door so to speak to propel things forward and that automatically makes him a better president than just about all of them.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I'm pretty sure it took a very long time after Lincon's death for everybody to love him. The whole reason he was killed was because so many people wanted him dead.

In fact I'm sure nobody doubts that during the civil war the south was trying to kill him. I doubt that as soon as they succeeded they now suddenly loved the man they had put so much effort into killing.

I really don't believe Lincoln's death is responsible for even a small part of why he is so beloved.

Today, his death is not the reason why he's loved. What he did is what makes us highly remember him.

But much of the hatred for Lincoln in the North was swept away by his death. The South was probably more joyous.

 

[Spider-Bite]

Today, his death is not the reason why he's loved. What he did is what makes us highly remember him.

But much of the hatred for Lincoln in the North was swept away by his death. The South was probably more joyous.

I could be wron because I'm no expert on the civil war, but I have to assume that the north admired him at least enough to stand by him in war and risk their lives.

to be fair to your point of view I have to add, although I'm not 100% positive I'm remembering it correctly, that he was only elected because the opposing party had two tickets on the ballot and their party's vote was split.

 

[Matt]

No, Kennedy's legacy is greater than his presidency.

Meanwhile, Nixon's presidency was great, but his legacy is ****.

 

[Spider-Bite]

No, Kennedy's legacy is greater than his presidency.

Meanwhile, Nixon's presidency was great, but his legacy is ****.

Is that why your called Hippie Hunter

 

[hippie_hunter]

I could be wron because I'm no expert on the civil war, but I have to assume that the north admired him at least enough to stand by him in war and risk their lives.

to be fair to your point of view I have to add, although I'm not 100% positive I'm remembering it correctly, that he was only elected because the opposing party had two tickets on the ballot and their partie's vote was split.

That's how Lincoln was in 1860. For a while, Lincoln had a tough time getting re-elected in 1864 until Union victory was becoming certain. He even faced riots because he suspended habeus corpus and introduced the draft.

 

[Spider-Bite]

I did not know that.

 

[The Senator]

I would say that John F. Kennedy is one of the most overrated presidents. He accomplished very little, and what he did accomplish was either morally questionable or incredibly mediocre. The only thing which I think stands out from his presidency was his response to the Cuban Missile crisis, but the majority of the praise lies within his cabinet and I also believe that any other president would have handled it similarly.

 

[redfirebird2008]

I would say that John F. Kennedy is one of the most overrated presidents. He accomplished very little, and what he did accomplish was either morally questionable or incredibly mediocre. The only thing which I think stands out from his presidency was his response to the Cuban Missile crisis, but the majority of the praise lies within his cabinet and I also believe that any other president would have handled it similarly.

Dubya wouldn't have. He would have gone ahead and nuked 'em.

 

[The Senator]

Dubya wouldn't have. He would have gone ahead and nuked 'em.

Doubtful. Even the most ill-tempered president wouldn't have launched nuclear war.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Doubtful. Even the most ill-tempered president wouldn't have launched nuclear war.

QFT.

Any President could have accomplished what Kennedy accomplished in the Cuban Missile Crisis.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Doubtful. Even the most ill-tempered president wouldn't have launched nuclear war.

OK not necessarily nukes but he would have bombed 'em.

 

[Oddzball]

Except Kennedy didn't know how to get anything done. LBJ was a doer, not overnight, but he got it done unlike his predecessor.

And Kennedy took the first steps in the Vietnam War.

This assumes, falsely that nothing was done prior to Nov.23rd 1963. LBJ took up where JFK was going.

 

[Excel]

JFK died as the hero before he could live to see himself become the villain.

 

[rdh007]

JFK is the most overrated President....EVER. He really didn't do anything asides from the Cuban Missile Crisis which could have been done with anyone with half a brain.

One of these guys is the most overrated president ever. The other could've probably been a pretty decent one.

JFK is certainly overrated though. Truman FTW!

 

[moraldeficiency]

As the first Irish-American president I'm probably more critical of him then other presidents, but JFK makes me ashamed to be irish. The single most overrated and overadored president in US history bar none.

Every comparison with him to obama makes me pretty annoyed. Yeah they both have the looks thing but obama's an actual decent man who will hopefully be a decent leader, JFK was none of those things.

 

[moraldeficiency]

stupid double posting computer.

 

[redfirebird2008]

As the first Irish-American president I'm probably more critical of him then other presidents, but JFK makes me ashamed to be irish. The single most overrated and overadored president in US history bar none.

Every comparison with him to obama makes me pretty annoyed. Yeah they both have the looks thing but obama's an actual decent man who will hopefully be a decent leader, JFK was none of those things.

Yeah, can you imagine if Obama was ****ing around with a star like Marilyn Monroe? As much as people criticize the media's treatment of Obama, the media's treatment of JFK was by far the most pathetic ever. JFK's affairs were exactly the kind of thing that end people's political careers nowadays (Spitzer, Edwards...cough cough), and yet the media completely protected him.

 

[Nivek]

JFK is the most overrated President....EVER. He really didn't do anything asides from the Cuban Missile Crisis which could have been done with anyone with half a brain.

Yeah, I'm sure Nixon would have turned out the same non-fallout results at that time.

When the hell did all this anti-JFK revisionist crap start popping up?

 

[hippie_hunter]

OK not necessarily nukes but he would have bombed 'em.

No he wouldn't have because bombing them would have resulted in nuclear war as well

 

[hippie_hunter]

Yeah, I'm sure Nixon would have turned out the same non-fallout results at that time.

If it weren't for Watergate, Nixon would have gone down as one of America's greatest Presidents

When the hell did all this anti-JFK revisionist crap start popping up?

It isn't revisionist, it's the damn truth. JFK deserves none of the praise he gets other than the fact that he was charismatic and good looking.