the massive plothole thread

[spider-neil]

And how did The Joker blow up cops that were standing IN FRONT of him, when the blast came from BEHIND?

exactly.

 

[The Joker]

look at the joker in TDK, 'I don't want to kill you, what would I do without you'

well, you could have fooled me, Mr. J.
villians have no value on human life even if they like the person or need the person.

The Joker initially wanted Batman out of the way. But then he saw how much fun Batman was to challenge. That's why he stopped Mr Reese from spilling the beans about Batman's identity on TV. It's called character development. Batman and Joker's relationship evolved in the movie.

Doc Ock throwing a car at Peter Parker when he needs him alive makes no sense at all.

I never got the impression the Joker knew Gordon wasn't dead. He tried to kill Gordon at the funeral and was clearly surprised when Gordon showed up after he chased Harvey Dent.

I'm also not seeing all these other plot holes in The Dark Knight. The Joker knew some of these things because he had ties to the mafia. This was established way early into the film. The mafia had connections everywhere in a very corrupt city. The Joker exercised these connections who knew about the helicopters and were prepared to take them done.

The Joker didn't know Dent wasn't Batman until the Batmobile showed up. His expression after the Batmobile takes some of the Joker's goons in the trash truck tells it all. That's when the Joker decides to try and blow up the police truck dent was in because he knows Dent is totally expendable at this point.

I think that part of the Joker's original plan was of course to have one of his connections in the police give him Lau. The other part was to capture Dent alive and torture him by making Dent believe he and Rachel would both die(Rachel's death was obviously planned in advance because the Joker gave the wrong directions to Batman on purpose).

If the Joker stuck to his original plan and Dent turned out to be Batman he would have probably let Dent escape after Rachel was killed. Nobody was 100% sure Harvey was telling the truth and I'm sure the Joker had told his henchmen that his scheme could be slightly altered if Dent was lying and if he got captured. All bets were off after the joker and some of his goons were captured but, he still wanted Dent to survive so he told Batman the wrong information so Harvey might survive and suffer loss. Dent surviving just wasn't a priority anymore since he wasn't Batman.

Commissioner Gordon saying the Joker wanted to get captured after he escaped was merely his assessment of the whole chaotic mess.

I know every movie has plotholes but, I didn't think this film had many that can't be explained away with some reasoning. Another plothole I've heard is how did the joker's henchmen rig the two boats leaving Gotham with explosives and prevent the passengers from knowing about them. It took me 2 minutes to come up with an explanation for that one but, I'm going to let people try and reason through it on their on. It's not much of a plothole in my opinion.

Well said

 

[spider-neil]

The Joker initially wanted Batman out of the way. But then he saw how much fun Batman was to challenge. That's why he stopped Mr Reese from spilling the beans about Batman's identity on TV. It's called character development. Batman and Joker's relationship evolved in the movie.

Doc Ock throwing a car at Peter Parker when he needs him alive makes no sense at all.



Well said

so the joker and two-face behaviour makes sense but doc ock's does not? okay...


joker -

is going full on to crush the batpod (with batman) under the his truck - all the while he has a plan for batman to choose between saving dent and rachel

doc ock -
flings a car at peter - all the while he needs to hand peter over to harry

what's the difference? both villians needed the hero for the next part of their plan but still attempted to kill them.

 

[HighFivingMF]

joker -

is going full on to crush the batpod (with batman) under the his truck - all the while he has a plan for batman to choose between saving dent and rachel

Batman drove at the truck. And under it... Peter didn't jump in front of a car Oc was skipping across the river.

 

[spider-neil]

Batman drove at the truck. And under it... Peter didn't jump in front of a car Oc was skipping across the river.

joker had no idea batman would avoid the truck, just like ock had no idea peter would avoid the car.

 

[HighFivingMF]

joker had no idea batman would avoid the truck, just like ock had no idea peter would avoid the car.

Yes he did... Why would Batman run right into a truck? Expecting a kid not to jump out of the way of a car makes sense. Thinking a guy on a fancy motorcycle wouldn't try to avoid getting hit by a truck doesn't.

 

[marvelman2006]

I got another one, in jurassic park 3 at the very end how the hell did the army know where to show up and when to show up? Sure grant called the chick during the river attack from the satelite phone but all he did was yell and scream, what if he was just at a hip party somewhere carrying on doing a drunk phone call? and also wasnt there more then 1 island? so how did the army know where to go?

 

[HighFivingMF]

I got another one, in jurassic park 3 at the very end how the hell did the army know where to show up and when to show up?

Harry told them.

 

[marvelman2006]

Harry told them.

 

[Majik1387]

I got another one, in jurassic park 3 at the very end how the hell did the army know where to show up and when to show up? Sure grant called the chick during the river attack from the satelite phone but all he did was yell and scream, what if he was just at a hip party somewhere carrying on doing a drunk phone call? and also wasnt there more then 1 island? so how did the army know where to go?

Yeah, cus his character would definitely be getting down at some 'hip party.'

Regarding the islands, for all we know they could have had the army checking All the islands.

 

[spider-neil]

Yes he did... Why would Batman run right into a truck? Expecting a kid not to jump out of the way of a car makes sense. Thinking a guy on a fancy motorcycle wouldn't try to avoid getting hit by a truck doesn't.

the psychic joker knew batman would move...

 

[The Joker]

so the joker and two-face behaviour makes sense but doc ock's does not? okay...

Correct.

joker -

is going full on to crush the batpod (with batman) under the his truck - all the while he has a plan for batman to choose between saving dent and rachel

"Ooooh you want to play. Come on"

That does not equate to him wanting to crush Batman. He saw Batman driving head on towards his truck in a Bat-Pod. He never beleived for a second that Batman was going to drive head on into a truck on his little Bat-Pod lol.

It was a game of chicken. Just like when Joker dared Batman to hit him on the Bat-Pod.

doc ock -
flings a car at peter - all the while he needs to hand peter over to harry

No, he needs Peter to find Spider-Man, so he can hand Spider-Man over to him. He had no idea Peter was Spider-Man.

what's the difference? both villians needed the hero for the next part of their plan but still attempted to kill them.

Joker didn't try and kill Batman.

 

[spider-neil]

Correct.



"Ooooh you want to play. Come on"

That does not equate to him wanting to crush Batman. He saw Batman driving head on towards his truck in a Bat-Pod. He never beleived for a second that Batman was going to drive head on into a truck on his little Bat-Pod lol.

It was a game of chicken. Just like when Joker dared Batman to hit him on the Bat-Pod.



No, he needs Peter to find Spider-Man, so he can hand Spider-Man over to him. He had no idea Peter was Spider-Man.



Joker didn't try and kill Batman.

what do you mean he didn't try and kill him?! he is bearing down on him with a frigging TRUCK, for pete's sake!

people just try and explain away all of dark knights problems, which is fair enough but dark knight definately HAS problems. great movie but not a perfect movie

 

[HighFivingMF]

what do you mean he didn't try and kill him?! he is bearing down on him with a frigging TRUCK, for pete's sake!

people just try and explain away all of dark knights problems, which is fair enough but dark knight definately HAS problems. great movie but not a perfect movie

And knowing that Batman wouldn't let a truck crush him isn't one of them.

 

[Majik1387]

what do you mean he didn't try and kill him?! he is bearing down on him with a frigging TRUCK, for pete's sake!

people just try and explain away all of dark knights problems, which is fair enough but dark knight definately HAS problems. great movie but not a perfect movie

True, but the problems in TDK aren't plothole related.

 

[Travesty]

I never got the impression the Joker knew Gordon wasn't dead. He tried to kill Gordon at the funeral and was clearly surprised when Gordon showed up after he chased Harvey Dent.

He was trying to shoot Mayor Garcia. Gordon jumped in front to take the bullet.

The Joker didn't know Dent wasn't Batman until the Batmobile showed up. His expression after the Batmobile takes some of the Joker's goons in the trash truck tells it all. That's when the Joker decides to try and blow up the police truck dent was in because he knows Dent is totally expendable at this point.

This is debatable, but I tend to agree with this assumption.

I think that part of the Joker's original plan was of course to have one of his connections in the police give him Lau. The other part was to capture Dent alive and torture him by making Dent believe he and Rachel would both die(Rachel's death was obviously planned in advance because the Joker gave the wrong directions to Batman on purpose).

If this was his original plan, then why did he put a bomb in someones stomach, and how did he know how to do it before the Dent chase sequence? If he had connections in the police, why didn't he just infiltrate from the inside, instead of potentially killing everybody in the precinct, including himself and Lau? And Like I said before, how did he not kill himself and Lau?

I'm pretty sure The Jokers point was to get arrested, so he can get Lau out, yet, pretty impossible that he was able to kill all of the cops around him, and the inmates in the cell......except for Lau.

If the Joker stuck to his original plan and Dent turned out to be Batman he would have probably let Dent escape after Rachel was killed. Nobody was 100% sure Harvey was telling the truth and I'm sure the Joker had told his henchmen that his scheme could be slightly altered if Dent was lying and if he got captured. All bets were off after the joker and some of his goons were captured but, he still wanted Dent to survive so he told Batman the wrong information so Harvey might survive and suffer loss. Dent surviving just wasn't a priority anymore since he wasn't Batman.

Wait a second, how can this be? Like you said above, and the point I agreed with, Joker thought Dent was Batman, until he saw The Tumbler. But you see, The Joker got caught RIGHT AFTER the whole Tumbler/Bat-Pod chase scene. Joker didn't have any way to tell his goons that Dent wasn't Batman. He went to jail right away. And Dent and Rachel were both tied up with a timed explosive. Also, Joker knew exactly what time the explosives were going to go off. So apparently, this was all planned from the beginning.

Also, we have a guy with a bomb attached in his stomach, and we know that Joker did it, because he's laughing about it when he comes in, and he also knows what number to call to blow the guy up. If his plan was just to capture Dent to torture, then why did he put a bomb in someones stomach, and somehow get them to be arrested, just so they could be in a cell?

Also, if Joker wanted Dent alive and to "escape", then what was the point of having a warehouse full of gasoline and timed detonator that went off at the same time as Rachel? I'm pretty sure Joker told Batman the wrong address, just to screw with him, because he knows how much he likes Rachel. He dove for her out of a window, and he beat the living crap out of Joker because he mentioned Rachel in the jail cell.

Are you saying The Joker did all of this on purpose, because he knew Batman would interrogate him(even though a few minutes earlier he thought Dent was Batman), just so he could tell Batman where the two were, just so Batman had enough time to save Dent? I mean, this was all on a timer, not a regular button detonator. And The Joker knew what time the explosive was going to go off. How did he know what time both explosives were going to go off, if this was all just "plan b" like you're saying? Also, how did Joker know he was going to be able to tell someone about Dent and Rachel in time before the timed explosive went off?

Commissioner Gordon saying the Joker wanted to get captured after he escaped was merely his assessment of the whole chaotic mess.

Well, what was the point of the bomb in the stomach?

And again, how did The Joker know that his bomb could kill everybody in the jail, except for him and Lau? How did he know he could get his one phone call? How did he know that the guy with a bomb, would be in the same jail as them? How did The Joker know he would be interrogated within the right amount of time, so he could tell someone about Rachel and Dent?

He's either psychic, or this movie has a bit more plotholes than you'd like to assume.

Also, we know that at the end of BB, that the police and mafia know about The Joker and what he looks like. Yet, we see him just standing around unnoticed at the beginning of TDK, without his mask on. Also, how did the goons in the truck not notice a guy with facepaint on, when he's clearly walking to the car without his mask, and puts it on right before he gets to the door?

 

[Theweepeople]

I guess everyone completely ignored my Aliens plothole posts. I guess we all agree that they weren't really plotholes.

There's many potholes within The Joker's plan.

Take for instance the whole 'bomb in the belly'. Now, first of all, it's a bit of a stretch to know that Joker already put a bomb in someones stomach, because they knew they would get caught.

This was a part of a backup plan in case he got caught because I see no evidence that he wanted to get caught by the police while chasing after Harvey Dent.

Sure, I'll give 'ol psychic Joker that one. But the very act, of him knowing that it would be his 'ticket out' is beyond ridiculous. He needs to blow it up, by using his 'phone call'. Guess what, you aren't entitled to a phone call by law, that is all made up.

Of course he wasn't entitled to a phone call. That's why he took a cop hostage with a knife to his neck and demaded the phone call or the cop would die. When was the last time you watched this film?

But again, I'll stretch that one as well, and give it to 'ol psychic Joker. BUT, the very fact that he was using that, to kill everybody aorund him, and get Lau out of jail ALIVE(so he can get the money), is a bit much.

Once again I don't think it was the Joker's original plan to get caught. His primary plan was probably to cause chaos, toy with Batman, and throw most of the police force off guard while some of his people infiltrate the police tration with the help of one of the Joker's connections. The Joker already had one person(Detective Anna Ramirez) on the inside working for him. He expected her to help his thugs to release Lau into their custody while all the chaos on the streets was taking place.

So you're telling me, that Joker knew the the blast would kill EVERYBODY in the jail, besides him and Lau?

The blast didn't kill everybody in the jail besides him and Lau. We didn't get to see the layout of the police station so it's easy to assume Lau was in a cell with much higher security since his life was in danger. In case you didn't notice Anna Ramirez survived the blast and she was only a few feet away from the joker.

And how did The Joker blow up cops that were standing IN FRONT of him, when the blast came from BEHIND? If the blast killed the cops, don't you think it would have taken The Joker out as well?

And again, if you go back to the actual definition of a plothole, it says:

Trust me, The Jokers plan falls into a lot of these.

I watched that scene again and we don't see what the Joker is doing at the exact time the blast went off. It's easy to rationalize that he killed the cop he had hostage and ducted under the cabinets/furniture as the bomb went off. The cops who didn't duck were either killed or temporarily stunned by the concussion of the blast. Did anyone notice that Detective Anna Ramirez was right there with the Joker when the bomb went off. She probably handed the key to Lau's cell to the Joker after the bomb exploded.

 

[samsnee]

How come every thread eventually turns into a discussion about Batman?

 

[SuperFerret]

I got another one, in jurassic park 3 at the very end how the hell did the army know where to show up and when to show up? Sure grant called the chick during the river attack from the satelite phone but all he did was yell and scream, what if he was just at a hip party somewhere carrying on doing a drunk phone call? and also wasnt there more then 1 island? so how did the army know where to go?

Isla Nublar was basically demolished. Ellie knew from the sounds and her child's playful roars that Alan must have been on one of the islands and considering the San Diego incident a few years prior, she knew that there were still dinosaurs there.

 

[Travesty]

This was a part of a backup plan in case he got caught because I see no evidence that he wanted to get caught by the police while chasing after Harvey Dent.

No evidence? He prepared by putting a bomb in a guys chest before he was even captured. He then uses that to get to Lau and the money he was going for, since the beginning of the movie.

Of course he wasn't entitled to a phone call. That's why he took a cop hostage with a knife to his neck and demaded the phone call or the cop would die.

You have COMPLETELY missed my point. Again, The Joker must be psychic to know that he would be in a holding cell, where there is broken shards of glass, so he can apprehend the officer, so he can get a phone, to escape with Lau.

When was the last time you watched this film?

I'm actually quite knowledgeable of this film. Don't act like I've only seen the movie once or twice.

Speaking of "the last time you've watched the film".......

The blast didn't kill everybody in the jail besides him and Lau. We didn't get to see the layout of the police station so it's easy to assume Lau was in a cell with much higher security since his life was in danger. In case you didn't notice Anna Ramirez survived the blast and she was only a few feet away from the joker.

The blast occurs exactly 1:34:55 into the film. There are 6-7 cops surrounding Joker in the office he was at. The bomb clearly killed the 4 paramedics, and the 6-7 officers that were in the room. Lau's holding cell was across the offices, and everybody died except for him and Lau. Hmmm, blind luck, I assume.

Also, when was the last time you've seen the movie, because Ramirez isn't in the same building as The Joker when the bomb went off. There was only one female officer in the same room, and she had blond hair.

I watched that scene again and we don't see what the Joker is doing at the exact time the blast went off. It's easy to rationalize that he killed the cop he had hostage and ducted under the cabinets/furniture as the bomb went off. The cops who didn't duck were either killed or temporarily stunned by the concussion of the blast.

He didn't duck, he lowered his head, but he was still standing up. If any of those officers were just stunned, than The Joker should have easily been knocked out as well.

Did anyone notice that Detective Anna Ramirez was right there with the Joker when the bomb went off. She probably handed the key to Lau's cell to the Joker after the bomb exploded.

It's impossible to notice, because she's not in that scene. I think you need to go back and watch it again.

And The Joker took the keys, from what looks to be a dead officer, slumped over a cabinet or a desk.

 

[Theweepeople]

He was trying to shoot Mayor Garcia. Gordon jumped in front to take the bullet.

You're right about that. My mistake.

This is debatable, but I tend to agree with this assumption.

At least we agree on something.

If this was his original plan, then why did he put a bomb in someones stomach,

That was his get out of jail free card if he ended up getting captured. Every psychopathic genius villian has at least one expandable thug that he uses and abuses.

and how did he know how to do it before the Dent chase sequence?

The joker was working with the mafia at this point. The mafia had connections and probably a hired a corrupt surgeon to perform the surgery on one of the joker's expendable thugs.

If he had connections in the police, why didn't he just infiltrate from the inside, instead of potentially killing everybody in the precinct, including himself and Lau? And Like I said before, how did he not kill himself and Lau?

I already explained this.

I'm pretty sure The Jokers point was to get arrested, so he can get Lau out, yet, pretty impossible that he was able to kill all of the cops around him, and the inmates in the cell......except for Lau.

Already explained.

Wait a second, how can this be? Like you said above, and the point I agreed with, Joker thought Dent was Batman, until he saw The Tumbler. But you see, The Joker got caught RIGHT AFTER the whole Tumbler/Bat-Pod chase scene. Joker didn't have any way to tell his goons that Dent wasn't Batman. He went to jail right away.

Like I said before the Joker had an original plan and probably told his goons in advance what the backup plan was. This also applied to Detective Anna Ramirez.

And Dent and Rachel were both tied up with a timed explosive. Also, Joker knew exactly what time the explosives were going to go off. So apparently, this was all planned from the beginning.

The joker was in the prison for a while before they started interrogating him. He could have easily communicated hand signal information to Detective Wuertz or any of the other corrupt cops in the precint about the time the explosives would go off.

Also, we have a guy with a bomb attached in his stomach, and we know that Joker did it, because he's laughing about it when he comes in, and he also knows what number to call to blow the guy up. If his plan was just to capture Dent to torture, then why did he put a bomb in someones stomach, and somehow get them to be arrested, just so they could be in a cell?.

I already explained most of this except that the thug was most likely with the Joker during the chase as insurance in case he got caught.

Also, if Joker wanted Dent alive and to "escape", then what was the point of having a warehouse full of gasoline and timed detonator that went off at the same time as Rachel? I'm pretty sure Joker told Batman the wrong address, just to screw with him, because he knows how much he likes Rachel. He dove for her out of a window, and he beat the living crap out of Joker because he mentioned Rachel in the jail cell.?

I don't think I ever said the joker was 100% Dent would live after the explosives were timed. He tried to kill the guy the moment he knew he wasn't Batman during the chase. The most chaotic scenario that could have resulted from the Joker's plan is Rachel dying(check), Dent surviving(check), Dent going mad(check), Dent ultimately dying(check) and the citizens of Gotham being negatively affected by Harvey's Dent(Unknown). The Joker would have been perfectly happy if Rachel was killed in the wharehouse while Harvey was killed during the chase. Capturing Lau was a priority but, if the Joker failed he would have been satisfied with whatever the outcome was.

Let's not forget that the Joker's number #1 goal is to cause Chaos. That took priority over every element of his chaotic, bizzare, and somewhat logical scheme.

Are you saying The Joker did all of this on purpose, because he knew Batman would interrogate him(even though a few minutes earlier he thought Dent was Batman), just so he could tell Batman where the two were, just so Batman had enough time to save Dent? I mean, this was all on a timer, not a regular button detonator. And The Joker knew what time the explosive was going to go off. How did he know what time both explosives were going to go off, if this was all just "plan b" like you're saying? Also, how did Joker know he was going to be able to tell someone about Dent and Rachel in time before the timed explosive went off?

I already explained this and you're making it way too complex.

Well, what was the point of the bomb in the stomach?

And again, how did The Joker know that his bomb could kill everybody in the jail, except for him and Lau? How did he know he could get his one phone call? How did he know that the guy with a bomb, would be in the same jail as them? How did The Joker know he would be interrogated within the right amount of time, so he could tell someone about Rachel and Dent?

He's either psychic, or this movie has a bit more plotholes than you'd like to assume.

See above post.

Also, we know that at the end of BB, that the police and mafia know about The Joker and what he looks like. Yet, we see him just standing around unnoticed at the beginning of TDK, without his mask on. Also, how did the goons in the truck not notice a guy with facepaint on, when he's clearly walking to the car without his mask, and puts it on right before he gets to the door?

That is a very good question. The Joker obviously didn't have makeup on when the truck pulled up. The Joker must have smeared some makeup on while sitting in the back seat of the car. He could have even temporarily taken his mask off because the guys in the frontseat didn't have a rearview mirror to see what the Joker was doing in the backseat. I know this isn't a good explanation for what happened but it's possible depending on how long the thugs were in the truck before they got to the bank.

 

[Theweepeople]

No evidence? He prepared by putting a bomb in a guys chest before he was even captured. He then uses that to get to Lau and the money he was going for, since the beginning of the movie.

There's a big difference between actually wanting to get caught and being prepared to get caught.

You have COMPLETELY missed my point. Again, The Joker must be psychic to know that he would be in a holding cell, where there is broken shards of glass, so he can apprehend the officer, so he can get a phone, to escape with Lau.

I think you're making this too complex. The joker showed how easy it was for him to kill people. He killed someone in the first 10 minutes of the film with a pencil. He could have gotten whatever cop that came into the holding cell in a headlock and threatened to break his neck unless his demands were met.

I'm actually quite knowledgeable of this film. Don't act like I've only seen the movie once or twice.

I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to insult you. I was just surprised at some details you didn't remember. Then I made the same mistake with other scenes and looked like a simpleton.

The blast occurs exactly 1:34:55 into the film. There are 6-7 cops surrounding Joker in the office he was at. The bomb clearly killed the 4 paramedics, and the 6-7 officers that were in the room. Lau's holding cell was across the offices, and everybody died except for him and Lau. Hmmm, blind luck, I assume.

Also, when was the last time you've seen the movie, because Ramirez isn't in the same building as The Joker when the bomb went off. There was only one female officer in the same room, and she had blond hair.

I just watched the scene again and you are right. I haven't seen that scene in a long time and I was pretty sure the woman standing next to the Joker was Ramirez. However, even though what you said was true it appears as the the Joker was the only person in that room who stood next to something that would at least shield the blast. The joker was at least prepared for what was about to take place.

Furthermore, I don't think all the cops were killed by the blast. Some where killed while others were just stunned. The joker who wasn't stunned could have grabbed a pistol from one of the stunned or killed cops and killed the anyone still alive.

He didn't duck, he lowered his head, but he was still standing up. If any of those officers were just stunned, than The Joker should have easily been knocked out as well.

It's impossible to notice, because she's not in that scene. I think you need to go back and watch it again.

And The Joker took the keys, from what looks to be a dead officer, slumped over a cabinet or a desk.

I guess I need to watch the whole film again. As I've said before I do think the film has plot holes I just still don't think the holes are as glaring as some have stated. However, the criticisms you've made are legitimate ones. It's a shame Nolan didn't spend a little more time making some of these scenes make a little more sense because I still don't have a problem with the joker's over plan and backup plans.

 

[~†~§iX~†~]

True, but the problems in TDK aren't plothole related.

Would Harvey's suit be a plothole or a goof, as the hospital would have cut it off of him and disposed of it with medical waste?

 

[spider-neil]

it's not really a plot hole as such, but in back to the future, marty can go to any point in time when he is in the 50's and even realises this when he says 'I can go back earlier and warn him' and changes the time on the flux capacitor for 10 mins earlier. why 10 minutes earlier, why not an hour or day?

 

[SuperFerret]

Impatience.