The McCain Thread

[Marx]

I don't think it'll go down that way. When Georgian conservatives are being hit by 527 ads on a daily basis saying "Voting for Barr = a vote for Obama," they will fall in line behind McCain. Gore and Democrats never had the balls to attack Nader. Republicans will have the balls to straight out say "Barr gives Obama the election."

That's because Nader still had a level of credibility in 2000 and Democrats don't usually smear other candidates. (At least, not as good as the Republicans do.)

 

[Marx]

Did anyone ever say Obama WASN'T a politician? I don't think even he has said that. I'm just amazed that there are so many people going "OMG! He' really a politician!!! OMG!" when he never claimed he wasn't. Again, people have this weird perception of this guy and have built him up (both people who are madly in love with him as well as people who hate him with the white hot intensity of a thousand suns) to be something he's really not and then act surprised when he turns out to be not what they had built him up to be in their own minds.

jag

The point is that Obama has built this image of himself. The root of his campaign is based on the "I'm not like all the others" mumbo jumbo. He started this, it's only been amplified by overzealous supporters.

 

[The Senator]

I don't think it'll go down that way. When Georgian conservatives are being hit by 527 ads on a daily basis saying "Voting for Barr = a vote for Obama," they will fall in line behind McCain. Gore and Democrats never had the balls to attack Nader. Republicans will have the balls to straight out say "Barr gives Obama the election."

Now you're assuming that the RNC and their corresponding 527s will waste money on ads attacking Barr instead of Obama in what has become an unusual swing state. And while that isn't out of the realm of possibility, I don't see it happening.

Barr is such an interesting candidate, not just because he represents a threat to McCain, but because of who he is. He was a former Congressman from Georgia who was regarded as one of the more conservative members of the House. McCain lost Georgia during the Republican primary, by a lot if I remember correctly, which means there is probably a sizable chunk of the Republican base in Georgia which is still annoyed at his lack of conservative credentials. If Barr sells himself to Georgians, particularly on his very conservative record, he has the potential to steal enough would-be votes from McCain to make a difference. When you add to that Obama's GOTV efforts among African American and younger voters in this state, it becomes quite clear that McCain is going to have a huge problem in a state which he normally wouldn't have had to worry about.

At the very least, McCain will have to spend money here... which gives Obama a chance to spend money in another state, such as Missouri or Ohio, while McCain defends territory he shouldn't have to defend...

 

[StorminNorman]

Now you're assuming that the RNC and their corresponding 527s will waste money on ads attacking Barr instead of Obama in what has become an unusual swing state. And while that isn't out of the realm of possibility, I don't see it happening.

You are assuming that everyone with any sort of political influence in the state is an idiot.

Georgia is only in play if McCain can't win over the Republican base. Obama, by himself, can not win the state. So if the RNC and 527's can eliminate Barr's credibility, can eliminate Barr as a threat - McCain wins the state. Attacking Obama in Georgia does little good - attacking Barr in Georgia is key.

 

[Excel]

The only people who hold Obama to this ultra standard are those who wanna see him fall.

 

[StorminNorman]

The only people who hold Obama to this ultra standard are those who wanna see him fall.

Or those who have not played tea time using Obama-flavored Kool Aid.

 

[The Senator]

You are assuming that everyone with any sort of political influence in the state is an idiot.

Georgia is only in play if McCain can't win over the Republican base. Obama, by himself, can not win the state. So if the RNC and 527's can eliminate Barr's credibility, can eliminate Barr as a threat - McCain wins the state. Attacking Obama in Georgia does little good - attacking Barr in Georgia is key.

I am not assuming the Georgia Republican Party is run by idiots.

Spoiler

Though that would explain why Saxby Chambliss is in the Senate.

However, I do believe that the Republicans have nothing to gain by attacking Barr, a widely known, popular politician in his home state who trumps McCain's conservative credentials tenfold. People who know nothing of Barr will be sitting at home, watching an ad which says "Bob Barr is an idiot," causing them to ask "who the hell is Bob Barr?" before they go on to the internet and realize that Bob Barr is far more conservative than McCain. Meanwhile, those who were on the fence about voting for McCain discover a candidate who has taken their stance on the issues which matter to them, and they become more interested in voting for Barr than they were interested in voting for McCain in the first place.

I think McCain and the RNC need to keep the attention on Obama and act as if Barr is irrelevant. A McCain-Barr clash in Barr's home state could backfire and cost McCain more than it could help him.

 

[StorminNorman]

I am not assuming the Georgia Republican Party is run by idiots.

Spoiler

Though that would explain why Saxby Chambliss is in the Senate.

However, I do believe that the Republicans have nothing to gain by attacking Barr, a widely known, popular politician in his home state who trumps McCain's conservative credentials tenfold. People who know nothing of Barr will be sitting at home, watching an ad which says "Bob Barr is an idiot," causing them to ask "who the hell is Bob Barr?" before they go on to the internet and realize that Bob Barr is far more conservative than McCain. Meanwhile, those who were on the fence about voting for McCain discover a candidate who has taken their stance on the issues which matter to them, and they become more interested in voting for Barr than they were interested in voting for McCain in the first place.

I think McCain and the RNC need to keep the attention on Obama and act as if Barr is irrelevant. A McCain-Barr clash in Barr's home state could backfire and cost McCain more than it could help him.

McCain and the RNC only can only afford to treat Barr as irrelevant if he IS irrelevant. If Barr's support is significant enough that McCain is being harmed by it - they must attack.

There is no reason Georgia should be a purple state - I don't care what the numbers say now, there is no way Obama can beat McCain in a two man race in the state. I know it well, my father has huge ties to the state politically. The only way Obama beats McCain there is IF McCain is facing a three man race with Barr.

Eliminate Barr, McCain wins. Period.

 

[The Senator]

McCain and the RNC only can only afford to treat Barr as irrelevant if he IS irrelevant. If Barr's support is significant enough that McCain is being harmed by it - they must attack.

There is no reason Georgia should be a purple state - I don't care what the numbers say now, there is no way Obama can beat McCain in a two man race in the state. I know it well, my father has huge ties to the state politically. The only way Obama beats McCain there is IF McCain is facing a three man race with Barr.

Eliminate Barr, McCain wins. Period.

Unfortunately, I do not believe McCain will be able to successfully eliminate Barr as a candidate, and that any attempts by McCain to do such a thing will ultimately backfire on him. If Georgia is like any other southern state, chances are they will not take kindly to some outsider such as McCain slamming a fellow Georgian in his backyard. Such attacks will boost Barr's profile and will probably help him more than it will help McCain.

Combine Barr's threat to Obama's sweeping voter registration drives and GOTV efforts in this state, and you've already begun to hammer the nail into McCain's political coffin.

 

[StorminNorman]

Unfortunately, I do not believe McCain will be able to successfully eliminate Barr as a candidate, and that any attempts by McCain to do such a thing will ultimately backfire on him. If Georgia is like any other southern state, chances are they will not take kindly to some outsider such as McCain slamming a fellow Georgian in his backyard. Such attacks will boost Barr's profile and will probably help him more than it will help McCain.

Combine Barr's threat to Obama's sweeping voter registration drives and GOTV efforts in this state, and you've already begun to hammer the nail into McCain's political coffin.

You are acting as if Barr is a beloved figure in Georgia - he is not. Barr is a loose cannon waiting to explode, the guy is an idiot. He will do something silly and when he does, McCain will be able to eliminate him as a credibile candidate.

 

[jaguarr]

The point is that Obama has built this image of himself. The root of his campaign is based on the "I'm not like all the others" mumbo jumbo. He started this, it's only been amplified by overzealous supporters.

Oh, his more overzealous supporters haven't helped I agree, but I'd say his detractors have contributed to the distortion of Obama's intent quite a bit as well.

jag

 

[Marx]

Oh, his more overzealous supporters haven't helped I agree, but I'd say his detractors have contributed to the distortion of Obama's intent quite a bit as well.

jag

It's hard to distort his intent when he shouts it from atop his mighty pedestal.

 

[jaguarr]

It's hard to distort his intent when he shouts it from atop his mighty pedestal.

Apparently it isn't.

jag

 

[Marx]

So how 'bout that John McCain?

 

[jaguarr]

So how 'bout that John McCain?

No, sir. I don't like 'im. Too flippy-floppy.

jag

 

[Mr Sparkle]

oh, I get it.
McCain never said he was going to change anything and seldom used the word "Hope" so he can lie about his energy policy, associate with anti-gay preachers, lie about his votes on investigating the actions of the government after Katrina, and a bunch of other things.

he can do it because he never said he wasn't a politician, and never implied that "politics as usual" would change, therefore apparently he gets a free pass, regardless of all the failings of his policies and the actions he has taken during the campaign.
not to beat a dead horse Matt, but you were NEVER going to vote for Obama acting like this "he chose winning over his word" deal had nothing to do with this.
in fact, if he had chosen his word over winning, you and others could complain that you need a Commander in chief who isn't afraid to do what it takes to win, blah, blah.
McCain has made as many, if not more mistakes during his run, and misrepresented his stance on hundreds of issues, and misrepresented his opponents stance as well.
yet again, this doesn't seem to be as discussed.

you know, it's weird, because If I was a neutral observer, seeing this from some foreign country (hahahahaha I guess I am) I'd have to say that race is playing a part in this somehow.

go fig.

 

[Matt]

You're hardly neutral though.

 

[The Senator]

You are acting as if Barr is a beloved figure in Georgia - he is not. Barr is a loose cannon waiting to explode, the guy is an idiot. He will do something silly and when he does, McCain will be able to eliminate him as a credibile candidate.

He's still loved in his home district, from what I've heard through the grapevine. And if that's true, then it shouldn't be difficult for him to boost his profile statewide.

 

[The Senator]

oh, I get it.
McCain never said he was going to change anything and seldom used the word "Hope" so he can lie about his energy policy, associate with anti-gay preachers, lie about his votes on investigating the actions of the government after Katrina, and a bunch of other things.

he can do it because he never said he wasn't a politician, and never implied that "politics as usual" would change, therefore apparently he gets a free pass, regardless of all the failings of his policies and the actions he has taken during the campaign.
not to beat a dead horse Matt, but you were NEVER going to vote for Obama acting like this "he chose winning over his word" deal had nothing to do with this.
in fact, if he had chosen his word over winning, you and others could complain that you need a Commander in chief who isn't afraid to do what it takes to win, blah, blah.
McCain has made as many, if not more mistakes during his run, and misrepresented his stance on hundreds of issues, and misrepresented his opponents stance as well.
yet again, this doesn't seem to be as discussed.

you know, it's weird, because If I was a neutral observer, seeing this from some foreign country (hahahahaha I guess I am) I'd have to say that race is playing a part in this somehow.

go fig.

With the exception of the race part, you raise valid points which I have noticed more and more as of late. Regardless of what Obama does, he will always be criticized by those who have admitted they dislike him with a passion. And every time McCain is brought up in his own thread, the topic seems gets changed to "Well, Obama doesn't have a plan," or "What does Obama plan to do differently?" as if that magically justifies what McCain stands for. I have numerous problems with Obama and some of his supporters, but seriously, some of his opponents are just as bad. They, too, throw out just as many outlandish assumptions as if they are fact, and present themselves as total extremists. It's getting a bit ridiculous.

 

[Matt]

It is no different than Obama supporters using "McBush" or "Well McCain does this," or "Everyone does it," argument. That is what this election will become.

And Sparkle, I'd thank you to not assume who I will and will not vote for. Last I checked you are not able to read my mind. I would've taken running mate and debates into account before I made a decision. This blew it. No matter how you spin this, no matter how stupid it would've been for Obama to keep his word, he did go back on a promise. Plain and simple and for someone who is meant to represent "change," that is unforgivable.

 

[Marx]

GOP worries that Barr could play spoiler in White House race
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080622/ap_on_el_pr/bob_barr

 

[The Senator]

It is no different than Obama supporters using "McBush" or "Well McCain does this," or "Everyone does it," argument. That is what this election will become.

Yeah, and the idiots who refer to John McCain as "McBush" or "McSame" have absolutely no leg to stand on, do they? The immense hatred towards both sides bothers me to no end. People have superficial reasons for being against both candidates, and the way they present themselves is absolutely childish sometimes.

 

[StorminNorman]

He's still loved in his home district, from what I've heard through the grapevine. And if that's true, then it shouldn't be difficult for him to boost his profile statewide.

Barr lost his seat in congress by losing his primary 2:1.

Also, you brought up the idea that Georgian's will reject McCain, an "outsider" criticizing Barr. McCain won't say a negative word about Barr, nor should he. That is the job of 527's and they will almost certainly be organized from within the state. It will be Georgians attacking Barr - not outsiders, or at least it will be sold (and bought) as such.

 

[The Senator]

Barr lost his seat in congress by losing his primary 2:1.

Also, you brought up the idea that Georgian's will reject McCain, an "outsider" criticizing Barr. McCain won't say a negative word about Barr, nor should he. That is the job of 527's and they will almost certainly be organized from within the state. It will be Georgians attacking Barr - not outsiders, or at least it will be sold (and bought) as such.

There's no hint that these 527s are planning on attacking Barr, just as there are no hints that Democratic 527s plan to attack Nader or Cynthia McKinney. I think you're living on a pipe dream.

Since it will take as little as 5% of Georgians to swing the state from McCain to Obama, I think you are underestimating the significance of Barr's threat. While I do not think there's enough evidence to suggest that the state will swing, I do believe that the amount of money Obama is willing to dump into the state on advertising and GOTV efforts will cause McCain's campaign to spend more money defending the state than he would plan. And yes, McCain will have to spend a significant chunk of money in this state promoting and defending himself, because voters are not going to be convinced to vote for McCain simply because a 527 is attacking Bob Barr. The 527 cannot advocate the election of John McCain; simply the defeat of Bob Barr. There will be a gap there which will need to be closed, especially among the strict social conservatives who can't stand Obama or McCain and would rather stay at home once Barr is exposed as a fraud.

 

[Matt]

I think you are putting too much stock in current Georgian polls, jman. I don't think it will be anywhere as close to purple as current polls indicate. I don't think it'll end up close enough for five percent to make a difference. Obama is still enjoying the post-primary grace period.