The New Nova

[Mr. Dent]

Has anyone at Marvel ever talked about how much time before AvX this book takes place? Because in AvX Sam looks about 4-5 years older than he does in this book.

 

[THANOSRULES]

I really enjoyed the original Richard Rider version of Nova, especially from the ANNHILATION era afterward when Keith Giffen, Dan Abnett and Andy Lanning had him grow up and become more of a space bad ass. He went from needing a hand taking down the Rhino in Robert Kirkman's MARVEL TEAM-UP to ripping Annihilus inside out and saving the universe. After that, "DnA" did a 3 year run on NOVA which was probably some of the best stuff of their career, at least in recent memory. His sacrifice in THANOS IMPERATIVE I thought was fair, even if I doubted it'd be the end.

Now? The first taste I got of the Sam Washington character was on "ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN", which is only the first cartoon Jeph Loeb produced from start to finish as TV czar, and it's rubbish (at best). The fact that he's negating prior continuity to do whatever he wants - like Bendis did with Star-Lord and the rest of the GOTG - doesn't surprise me. Loeb's been a hack of the highest order for some time now, at least to me. The last work anyone considers to have been above average have been his collaborations with Tim Sale - and considering Loeb tells us again and again and again and again and again that he "writes for his artists", I think I'll take him for his word and attribute at least partial or halfway success for those stories on Sale. His best works for DC since "Long Halloween" were often mindless action romps made to have as many villains show up as possible, such as BATMAN: HUSH or his run on WORLD'S FINEST which has been immortalized into not one, but two DTV's by WB home video (a tribute saved only for Frank Miller and Dwayne McDuffie thus far). The last thing of Loeb's that I read, AVENGERS: X-SANCTION was perfectly mediocre, middle of the road action fare. Probably the most amusing part of that was seeing his "Gary Stu" character, Red Hulk, lose to Cable in as absurd a manner as Red Hulk once was allowed to deck out the Watcher. His ULTIMATUM was close to a death blow for the Ultimate imprint and sales for it still haven't recovered since. It's only in the upside down and inside out world of comic books where a producer who literally ran a hit network TV show into the ground for two seasons could then be promoted into a position where he's literally in control of every small screen adaptation which the company does. That's like someone promoting Uwe Boll to being Senior Vice President of Quality Control for, well, anything.

I'm boggled when some people tried NOVA and they're shocked, SHOCKED, that certain bits of it ignore continuity or flat out make crap up or seem to have been copied and pasted from the HACK'S REFERENCE GUIDE OF GENERIC WRITING, 101. Loeb's sort of been on that roll for a while now. Why was it a surprise? That's why I didn't bother. He once stated in an interview about many writers missing deadlines because they're perfectionists and they turn in scripts late. While I am certain this happens, there is such a thing as going too far in the other direction, and I fear Loeb has by this point in his career.

Bendis is someone who I feel may be a better editor than writer, as his ideas usually are fine, it's just his execution which made me want to strangle myself. Loeb? Unless he teams up with Tim Sale more, I don't know where his quality control is anymore. The only difference is that Bendis' ability to influence media adaptations of Marvel's legendary franchises is limited, while Loeb's in charge of a large arm of that now. His best successes have been "A:EMH" and the initial Marvel anime, both of which began production before his promotion and the former at best was diminished slightly from his meddling. In terms of comics, I wouldn't expect anything beyond middle of the road action fare which checks off every cliche on the checklist, because meeting that deadline is what counts. Maybe that's become Loeb's problem; caring more about the dotted line than genuine emotion or art.

There are some good points in here, I'd vehemetly agree about Loeb as a "hack" in much of his work...however he is still a guy who is considered A list and a guy who can sell something just based off his name.

My arguments for supporting the book are:

-Blind support for Nova, the franchise and even Richard Rider..I feel like the Marvel editorial administration is petty and vindictive against characters. If Nova fails with Loeb and Mcg on staff with all the promo work...no Nova, let alone Rider will get a shot for years...this staff holds grudges and is not afraid to earmark characters as flawed and unworkable...and they use there own twisted logic in this formula.

..However, if the book sells, Rider will be back soon enough within the pages...and I don't think Loeb will last forever on the title. Whacker himself said he had a finite tenure on the book planned, and that it would be less than his Hulk stint. I give Loeb 12 issues on this...then maybe we get a decent writer who could do some interesting things with a Legacy.

-I'd also even go as far to say that some degree of exposure (IE giving them ongoings) to B list characters in general, is at stake here under the same logic.

-I know this defies conventional logic on how to spend ones 4 bucks..but it's Nova man not something like T-bolts (which I've dropped).

-The art has been top notch
-I've hoped for a redemption for Loeb as writer.
-I dont think the writing has been bad so far...
-I dont think the out of continuity stuff has been that bad thus far..
-Cliche's are there...but some of the stuff has been written quite well..the book has strengths and weakness.

-It is interesting to see if Nova get's a shot at the Avengers as was promised in AvX...if that happens, you likely will get Hickman or Remender doing stuff with him , and that really could be a good thing. I'd like to see that through, even if it's Sam.

-Which also shows me this Nova will be relevant within the whole Marvel U...which is a reason to find out what is going on. I dont think this will be as self contained as past Nova or cosmic books.

-Let me also say that some of the gripes of the continuity stuff are ridiculous. At what point does this become some sort of ***** about any "new ideas"...the lore of the Nova Corps is spotty especially in the older days..this "black corps" is not that ridiculous.

-Nova and New Warriors fans have seen a ton of retcons and disrespectful or poor continuity/character progression. Eric Larsen's series really turned back Rich to basically his persona and life in the 70s series, after he developed nicely in his NW Vol.1 and Nova Vol 2 series. NW vol. 2 did the same thing to Rich...it was ghastly. True Nova fans shouldnt act like we have some sacred timeline of continuity..'cause we dont...and it's not a good excuse to not support the book.

(and btw I can really remember people getting on DnA for showing RR as a green and unrecognized Centurion in the Annihilation I Nova mini series, and that turned out ok )

I read Ultimatum and Ultimates 3 and those were piles of crap...i didnt finish either of them. This stuff is not that bad.

 

[JewishHobbit]

It really isn't... it's just very uninspired and cliche. I have the first issue, skimmed but passed on the second, but I'm expecting to get caught up.

Though the blind supporting of the book with the hopes of Rider's eventual return could also backfire. Marvel's screw mentality could easily change to "we have a good thing going with Sam, there's no reason to go back to Rich" which could then just drag it out.

 

[Mr. Dent]

I'd rather not have Nova joining the Avengers.

 

[THANOSRULES]

He already has...just hasnt been shown yet.

 

[Mr. Dent]

Really hope it doesn't happen and he backs out of it...how much sense does it even make for the Avengers to have a 15-16 year old on the team?

 

[Snikt8]

^Why not? Logan's like 150 years old.....I think they are equal age oppornity employers.....

 

[Themanofbat]

Was that Loeb and Sale? I didn't think it was.

I just looked it up... there's only a 0 issue. Was it a one shot or did they just never finish the mini?

DareDevil: Yellow was great... Spider-Man: Blue was pretty good... Hulk: Grey was decent (so I've heard... I never read it), and Captain America: White was cancelled after issue #0... no explanations ever given.

 

[Mr. Dent]

^Why not? Logan's like 150 years old.....I think they are equal age oppornity employers.....

 

[THANOSRULES]

Well the easy answer is they don't know he's only 15..clearly the avengers have some age limits...example being Rage

 

[sandwraith]

I haven't had time to pick up either issue at the shop...other commitments. But if Stingerman and timelord's comments over at Cosmicbooknews are to be believed, this book seems like one big **** you to the fans of the previous series.

I can't say I'm surprised. Few writers have the capacity to write Cosmic. Take Brubaker for example. He had Richard Rider for all of 6 issues in Secret Avengers and squandered his presence in the title to make Steve Rogers look good. Now take a look at how Greg Pak handled the writing in World War Hulks where Steve Rogers practically tells Nova not to go full force to avoid massive damage. And that was just two or three pages.

Jeph Loeb can't write Cosmic. Heck from the first title I read from him which was Hush, I knew I personally wasn't a fan of his writing style. I've been told he has some really big winners like Long Halloween and Spider-Man Blue and Daredevil Yellow but that seems to indicate to me that he is more comfortable with more....terrestrial characters.

Some of the Editorial staff might point out that even Richard Rider faced more earthbound villains in his early career. True. But with Marv Wolfman's well planned writing, many of those villains (well...except the Condor) were used a spring board to Richard's later Cosmic adventures like the Sphinx and Dr. Sun (a Dracula Villain!). If Loeb can try to do the same by giving Sam ORGANIC character growth rather than having him thrown into the deep end just because as a way of showing how much more gifted his character is as compared to Richard than it just feels like he is writing this book for himself.

 

[Mr. Dent]

Not sure what you're talking about exactly but Sam has not fought anything and has just ran into the Watcher...so he's not taking on Earthbound villains. And we know going forward that Sam is going to be doing more space travelling than fighting on Earth as well. Furthermore, I don't really understand how this is a eff you to fans of DnA's Nova other than the fact they're using a new Black Nova Corps.

I'm not trying to be an apologist for this book, I didn't even like the first issue, but from what I've read in their "articles" cosmicbooknews seems to have some kind of vendetta against the new writers on Guardians/Nova because Marvel cancelled DnA's series and they're extremely butt pained over it. I wouldn't really call what they're putting out objective opinions.

 

[sandwraith]

Not sure what you're talking about exactly but Sam has not fought anything and has just ran into the Watcher...so he's not taking on Earthbound villains. And we know going forward that Sam is going to be doing more space travelling than fighting on Earth as well. Furthermore, I don't really understand how this is a eff you to fans of DnA's Nova other than the fact they're using a new Black Nova Corps.

I'm not trying to be an apologist for this book, I didn't even like the first issue, but from what I've read in their "articles" cosmicbooknews seems to have some kind of vendetta against the new writers on Guardians/Nova because Marvel cancelled DnA's series and they're extremely butt pained over it. I wouldn't really call what they're putting out objective opinions.

Having yet read the issues out, I'm still on the fence but with my own allegiance to the Rider camp in play, I can't say I expect to like the title after getting my hands on it.

As for the Watcher...forget about it. Both Bendis and Loeb have used the Watcher in ways so ridiculously it borders on ego-stroking.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I get Loeb using the Watcher in a rediculous manner... when did Bendis use him? The only time I can think of was Watcher watching the final battle of Secret Invasion, which made sense since it was essentially the last stand of a dying race.

 

[CConn]

I think these first two issues have been the best thing Loeb's done in years.

The writing and art has been extremely cinematic, which I'm not always into in comics, but it's succeeding beautifully in this instance.

 

[JewishHobbit]

The art is one of the things hurting it for me. For whatever reason I just can't get into McGuinness' art.

 

[Mr. Dent]

I didn't like his art in the first issue but I really liked the way he drew Nova in the second issue.

 

[THANOSRULES]

I haven't had time to pick up either issue at the shop...other commitments. But if Stingerman and timelord's comments over at Cosmicbooknews are to be believed, this book seems like one big **** you to the fans of the previous series.

I can't say I'm surprised. Few writers have the capacity to write Cosmic. Take Brubaker for example. He had Richard Rider for all of 6 issues in Secret Avengers and squandered his presence in the title to make Steve Rogers look good. Now take a look at how Greg Pak handled the writing in World War Hulks where Steve Rogers practically tells Nova not to go full force to avoid massive damage. And that was just two or three pages.

Jeph Loeb can't write Cosmic. Heck from the first title I read from him which was Hush, I knew I personally wasn't a fan of his writing style. I've been told he has some really big winners like Long Halloween and Spider-Man Blue and Daredevil Yellow but that seems to indicate to me that he is more comfortable with more....terrestrial characters.

Some of the Editorial staff might point out that even Richard Rider faced more earthbound villains in his early career. True. But with Marv Wolfman's well planned writing, many of those villains (well...except the Condor) were used a spring board to Richard's later Cosmic adventures like the Sphinx and Dr. Sun (a Dracula Villain!). If Loeb can try to do the same by giving Sam ORGANIC character growth rather than having him thrown into the deep end just because as a way of showing how much more gifted his character is as compared to Richard than it just feels like he is writing this book for himself.

Timelord is on a personal vendetta against the book and Whacker. He's taken himself out of the reasonable opinion zone.

Nova fans are used to dealing with garbage. About 50 per cent of what has been done with Rich over the years (and also New Warriors for that matter) has been Junk.

Basically we Have Nova Vol. 1 and 2. 4 , NW vol 1 and Annihilation era stuff (and some small junky moments there..but not many).

So nova fans should be used to not getting there way. And what we have here in the Loeb series is not garbage...its actually decent.

We're going to be ok as RR fans. He'll be back...He'll be relevant and the Marvel U will pay...until then I'm gonna enjoy this Sam Alexander... because I'm a Nova fan.

+and as stated Sam has not faced a villian yet in the main series, and he's briefly clashed with Terrax and Diamonhead prior, 2 classic villians of his past...so I'm not sure what the problem is. I'm positive this will be a cosmic book that will revolve around the earth.

 

[Mr. Dent]

^ This is truth right here. The only Nova stories I've read and enjoyed were the original stories by Wolfman and DnA's run. Compared to the usual Nova fair pre-DnA this is great so far.

 

[sandwraith]

Well, if I have the time I'll try swinging by the comic shop tomorrow and get my first taste of the Black Novas.

I won't lie, I still have memories of Onslaught Reborn at the back of my mind so Loeb is on my wary list. My opinions might already be colored but I'll try not to be so biased when I do get a chance to read it....Hopefully.

 

[sandwraith]

Out of curiosity who do you think could take over from McGuinness if or when he does leave the title?

I'd actually like to see if Paco Medina could pull it off. He does have a...youthful style about his work which would suit Sam's look. Or maybe Skottie Young or Jim Cheung? Is Mahmud Asrar DC exclusive because his Supergirl work is pretty awesome.

 

[THANOSRULES]

Out of curiosity who do you think could take over from McGuinness if or when he does leave the title?

I'd actually like to see if Paco Medina could pull it off. He does have a...youthful style about his work which would suit Sam's look. Or maybe Skottie Young or Jim Cheung? Is Mahmud Asrar DC exclusive because his Supergirl work is pretty awesome.

all great Picks...Medina was the one who instantly came to mind before i even finished reading ur thread.

..Should also talk Writers..to which i would vote Waid .

 

[THANOSRULES]

^ This is truth right here. The only Nova stories I've read and enjoyed were the original stories by Wolfman and DnA's run. Compared to the usual Nova fair pre-DnA this is great so far.

Even the good runs were laced with insults and head scratchers:

I consider Vol.1 New Warriors a great Rich Rider series, however, how many Nova fans were lived when he was set as "Kid Nova" and basically had no growth from the stuff in the last year of Nova Vol.1 and the Skrull war? And that garbage costume too! Ended up being OK.

..then as I said before even DnA had Nova show up re-called for duty to the Nova corps like he was some run of the mill corpsmen, and not a guy who had bailed out the corps time after time. Ended up being OK.

 

[sandwraith]

I'd like to see if Ron Marz still has a little Cosmic in him. I liked his early Silver Surfer and Green Lantern stuff but maybe that's a little too typecasty.

Didn't Waid do a Digital Comic for Sam Alexander Nova? I remember seeing some promos about it. Waid generally gets Superheroes, cosmic or otherwise pretty damn right.

If Peter David is still...capable (I'm referring to his post-stroke state and not the man's nigh-limitless creativity) I really wouldn't mind seeing what he could do on Nova.

 

[Mr. Dent]

ZEB WELLS TAKING OVER NOVA

Best news all day.

EDIT: He's only on 5 issues. Here we go with this rotating creative team ********.