Comics The obvious way to progress Peter Parker...

[Dragon]

The thing is, having a baby doesn't move Peter forward. Moving him forward is his being self-aware. Moving him forward is his knowing who he is. Not making the same f-in' mistakes over and over and over. Not being portrayed as a total dumbass and being suckered by anyone with a weak song and dance. Moving him forward is making his stories character based. Not event based. Having him and his cast develop as individuals.

Adding a baby is a cheap and cliched gimmick that like all the other gimmicks will wear thin. Character development doesn't.

 

[farmernudie]

Great point.

They way he is written now, (recently) if he'd put strangers and family in jeapordy....he surely is not ready to progress to that point and have a baby. He'd put it in jeapordy too.

Peter needs to realize and be aware of his past, how he is a major hero in his universe, be aware of how he got where he is, and not be portrayed like a noob. He has gone on mulitple cosmic missions with Avengers and FF and saved the world or whatnot....just for a quick example....so he is not the "rookie noob anymore". Yes, he is lighthearted, but not a noob.

Someone really needs to pause and take a look at who Peter Parker (..and MJ...) is and get him back on tract by writing him responsibily. Maybe someone should actually step up to Joey Q and make a stand and not take part in some new dippy event that takes him further backwards.

 

[DACrowe]

But I argue giving him a baby in a well written story is a good thing. It allowsh im to continue to grow up. Saying it is a gimmick is like saying him going to college, getting a full time job, getting married, etc. is a gimmick. Only if it is written poorly, but the poential is great.

Peter swinging around fighting the same (or new villains) over and over while having his wife at home with their marriage finally stablilized and aunt May proud of him is good and all....but then it gets stuck in a rut. That is why these "events" keep happening. To put something new on the table, but they are all poorly written pieces of shock value tripe.

This allows him to grow as a character and worry about being a father and being there for MJ and his daughter (or son). He has more concerns now. The character works because he is constantly growing and changing. The reason the ****ty events are happening is he reached a point where Marvel is like "Thou shall not grow or age again" and now we're stuck in boring status quo. So they "shake things up" by doing a Spidey dies/reborn story" and now "Spidey is a tool/unmasked storyline" and now they're going to send him back 20 years and kill off MJ so he can be a fun loving swinging bachelor who forgets all about his wife as he hits the discos again.

Thanks but no thanks. If that happens I'm done with 616 and pretended it ended with Book of Ezekiel or something, then.

 

[Dark Prophet]

Another thing is that it is good to have these progression benchmarks. You should be able to pick up any Spidey story and understand and say: "Oh, this takes place before Peter and MJ are married and after the Symbiote story while he's still in college" for example.

Of all the outrageous changes we've have to endure so far how can having a baby be worse than all of them? When you think about it, Peter should have found his daughter instead of Aunt May in that 'final battle' with the Green Goblin... it really would have brought that part of the story to a nice close. The Green Goblin returned by taking his baby and was defeated when it returned.

Regarding the marriage, you can clearly imagine Joe Q's logic perfectly. The marriage did work however, for a time, but eventually some of the dramatic tension is lost since their relationship can't be 'off and on' like when they were dating. Even if Peter and MJ had a fight they would still be married... hence all the wierd places MJ has been put through at least the last two writing regimes. They're a married couple. Fine. Pretty much everything a super hero couple could possibly deal with emotionally has been dealt with. Whatever conflicts Peter has that MJ has to cope with will pretty much rehash the same overdone story now just with a slightly different twist. It would never come off as fresh. So is the answer to get rid of MJ permanently? No. It would be interesting for a while but would only be so in the short-term. They couldn't stick with that forever... eventually they'll hook Peter up with someone else and we've come back to the exact same variation just with someone else. Now, Peter and MJ dealing with their child... there are a ton of stories that come out of that that just write themselves! Not to forget to mention that I guarantee you that there is no story that's going to come out of Marvel's Spider-Man that couldn't be told with Spider-Man as a dad. Think about it, the baby doesn't prevent story telling but encourages new ones and new ideas.

 

[Alex Summers]

I think one way that Peter could "grow" is to move to a different town/city/state. He could get away from New York and start something new. After the Clone Saga fiasco Pete and Mary Jane moved to the Northwest, trying to start over. I always thought that had alot of potential.

 

[Redwoods Wolf]

I think one way that Peter could "grow" is to move to a different town/city/state. He could get away from New York and start something new. After the Clone Saga fiasco Pete and Mary Jane moved to the Northwest, trying to start over. I always thought that had alot of potential.

He should move to Chicago, where I used to live. I'd love to see some Midwest architecture in comic books instead of just NYC all the time.

 

[Dragon]

But I argue giving him a baby in a well written story is a good thing. It allowsh im to continue to grow up. Saying it is a gimmick is like saying him going to college, getting a full time job, getting married, etc. is a gimmick. Only if it is written poorly, but the poential is great.

But it WILL be written poorly. Everything else is. Having a baby isn't a "story". It's many-many stories, which will run into the same f-in' cliches. The comic relief crap of Peter having to remember to bring home formula and diapers after beating up Electro. A shot of Peter rocking the baby to sleep while hanging from the ceiling. The serious issues of the baby developing powers. Villains using the baby as a target. Some dumbassed arc of a villain knowing the baby will one day be integral in some cosmic event so they kidnap her.

Peter going to college is a natural event in his life as a teenager growing up. He's studious, so college makes sense for him. Not everyone has children. And based on what Peter and MJ have been through- it's an almost unbelievable concept for them to want another child while they're in the midst of Peter's dangerous lifestyle. Remember- A villain killed their daughter. She didn't just die.

Peter swinging around fighting the same (or new villains) over and over while having his wife at home with their marriage finally stablilized and aunt May proud of him is good and all....but then it gets stuck in a rut. That is why these "events" keep happening. To put something new on the table, but they are all poorly written pieces of shock value tripe.

Peter swinging around fighting villains is what Spider-Man is. He's not The Amazing Family-Man. If you want to follow Spider-Man, you have to accept that he's a costumed adventurer who battles evil-doers.

What he needs is good stories about that subject matter. And I agree the events need to cease. He needs character driven stories. If Spidey had been well-written for the past 20 years with good handling of the characters, then I wouldn't mind them having a child, because I could trust that this would also be well-written, whereas Peter, not MJ, not the baby would remain the star of his book, with the family as his supporting players. But as lazily as the comic has been written, I know that Peter and MJ having a baby will just be his being buried under more layers of crap. Possibly from which he can never recover. They can end the marriage and have him start again. destroying his whole family would be to much.

This allows him to grow as a character and worry about being a father and being there for MJ and his daughter (or son). He has more concerns now. The character works because he is constantly growing and changing. The reason the ****ty events are happening is he reached a point where Marvel is like "Thou shall not grow or age again" and now we're stuck in boring status quo. So they "shake things up" by doing a Spidey dies/reborn story" and now "Spidey is a tool/unmasked storyline" and now they're going to send him back 20 years and kill off MJ so he can be a fun loving swinging bachelor who forgets all about his wife as he hits the discos again.

Thanks but no thanks. If that happens I'm done with 616 and pretended it ended with Book of Ezekiel or something, then.

It doesn't necessarily allow him to grow as a character. Being married certainly didn't. The loss of his first child certainly didn't. Having a baby would allow the already lazy writers to continue to be so. They won't write Peter developing, they'll just- as I said, use the baby as another issue (or arc) spouting gimmick. Another way to pad stories out.

But anyway, Peter isn't going to be frivolously written going back on the dating scene. Even under the worse handling he's never done that. The end of the marriage doesn't necessarily signal the end of good Spider-Man comics. The problem is that the marriage is ending for the wrong reasons- namely that the writers don't know what to do with it and never did.

But as with real life struggling marriages, adding a baby at this juncture isn't going to help.

 

[Dragon]

I think one way that Peter could "grow" is to move to a different town/city/state. He could get away from New York and start something new. After the Clone Saga fiasco Pete and Mary Jane moved to the Northwest, trying to start over. I always thought that had alot of potential.

That wouldn't help either. For one Thing, Spidey needs buildings to webswing from. Spidey also needs to be in the most recognizable city in the world. It adds to the realism of the book.

 

[diespinne]

If Peter decided to have a baby, I'd imagine the most responsible thing for him to do would be to hang-up the webs and be a father. "With great power..."

Realistically, he should want to inject some much-needed stability into his life before expanding his family. At the very least, I'd think that Peter would work towards becoming a more savvy, efficient crime fighter (rather than being the bumbling dolt that gets pulped every other week as he's portrayed currently) before even considering fatherhood.

I'd like to see Spidey using his brain more, developing gadgets, tactics, and so forth to make his crime fighting life a little bit easier... not necessarily easier, but atleast enable him to deal with tougher challenges and not end-up getting shot and buried alive for a week by a Tarzan knock-off, or getting shot and stuck in a Mad Dog Ward by a security guard or K-O'ed by a dork named 'Typeface' or hold the distinction of being the only hero in recent months to get pulped by The Rhino.

 

[November Rain]

the best way to take parker back would be to stop him being a full time hero again...

his dual identity was his strength in dealing with trivial life via spidey and having spidey interfere with his trivial life.

THAT'S IT

the most simplistic of formulae ever...

instead of giving him teenage dillemas, give him grown up ones, a steady job, mortgages and buying a house, looking after an ageing aunt who may or may not be housebound, promotions, mixing with his peers, pension schemes and bank loans. Have him teach photography on the weekends and tutor kids on science during some evenings,

Some of these writers are living typical parker out-of-costume dillemas but no one wants to take from their own experiences and add to the character.

silly.


actually with him being unmasked, I guess we could see how mundane life is occurs while having to deal with being a celebrity of sorts and whether or not he cashes on his fame just like he wanted to when he first started out.

also MJ being taken out ofthe spotlight as her husband becomes more famous than her which is like a complete role reversal in their relationship and how she deals with no longer being a model in her own right but instead a superhero WAG (wife and girlfriend).

also, I wouldn't go for ben reilly being venom, rather Kaine, could you imagine...a symbiote Kaine going toe to toe with the hulk, and winning? you saw what a normal Kaine did to the rhino, put the ***** down, oh the possibilities especially since the symbiote would stop and reverse the degeneration and it would finally think it had want it wanted, peter parker.

I can only dream

 

[freemadison]

I think some on this board said in passing, and I agree, that Ben Reilly would make an awesome Venom!!!

too sweet

 

[SpideyInATree]

I was a little kid when the whole clone saga thing started up, so I never knew that they wanted to turn Ben into the real SM. I've always wanted peter to be Spider-man, but I always wanted Ben to stay around as a supporting character too. Back then it was because my friend Nick, who was a blonde kid, could play a spider-man, and I could play a spider-man, and there would be no hassle over who go to be Spider-man.

Now that we don't play "spider-brothers" anymore, I still want Ben back, but because I love the character. I s'pose I wouldn't have minded him being Spidey, but I like Peter more.

Yeah, the original plan was that Ben Reilly was the real deal. Only the problem was that many long time Spider-Man fans freaked out because the Spider-Man they were reading for the past decade or two was a clone. And I've always said, "Does it really matter THAT MUCH that he was the clone? It was STILL Peter Parker in that Spider-Man costume and it was still the SAME EXACT GUY!"

But the fans got their wish and it's one of the major reasons that the Clone Saga from the 90's was such a drug out process.

You had Ben Reilly taking the Spider-Man duties. You basically found a way to replace Peter Parker as Spider-Man...with Peter Parker. Pretty solid set up if you ask me. Peter Parker and Mary Jane moved to Portland Oregon to live happily ever after and start their new family.

But, of course, the fans didn't want to see Peter Parker live happily ever after. They wanted to make his life a living hell. So, that's what they did and they got some of the worst Spider-Man comics of all time because of it. And now most Spidey fans are throwing their arms up in the air because he's unmasked, because he had a new suit, because he died and was reborn, because Gwen Stacy had an affair with Norman Osborn, because JMS introduced a different possibility for Spider-Man's origin, and the list goes on and on and on and on.

And my question to Spider-Man fans, which no one has still answsered this, is would you have rather had Ben Reilly continue to be the one true Spider-Man while Peter Parker lived happily ever after with his family?

 

[farmernudie]

To answer your question Siat, me personally...i would rather have PEter PArker be Spider-man with well written stories.

First off, I didn't have any problems with Ben Reilly...the person/character himself.

However, I thought it was REAL cheap, in myriads of ways, to say he was the REAL Spidey all of the sudden, and in doiong so, rendering EVERYTHING we've grown up reading to have been about a fake guy, a clone.

Why wouldn't us long time fans, who have been there from the beginning, NOT feel outraged when they came out with that a cheap move like that??

Even more, we weren't needing Peter to just QUIT AND BE HAPPY THE REST OF HIS LIFE and live happily ever after.

That's like stopping the Superman comics now all of the sudden, so he (Clark) can "live happily ever after"...and tell us he is really a fake superman after all these years anyway. And substitute "Joe Scmoe" as the real superman all along. It wouldn't go over well withlong time fans.

There was no reason to yank Peter off the stage as a fake (or any hero for that matter) to substitute some new guy, especially under the assumption/reasoning that the original hero loved by fans for all of life is a FAKE.

If you (meaning a writer at an agency) REALLY feels the urge to replace..."Superguy Whomever", then replace them...but with dignity and not in some cheap fashion....don't trash a character or mock the reader by telling them they've been reading about a hero who is a fake for their whole life.

In short: As history shows, any original comicbook hero will always tend to be more loved then any new replacement.

That is my answer. My opinion or view on it.
I hope others answer this question too. They may have a different view for you.

 

[SpideyInATree]

You keep refering to him as a "fake" and saying it was "cheap". How was he fake? He was Peter Parker through and through. He had his heart. He had his mind. He had his soul. The only thing that truly separated the two was the simple fact that one was the original and one was a copy of that original.

What cheapened it? Did it REALLY make that much of a difference that one was the clone and the other one wasn't?

The writers and creative forces during that time were dealing with this same debate we're having in the storyline. As Ben Reilly was slowly taking over the full time duties as Spider-Man and Peter Parker was coping with the fact that he isn't the real deal...it was spelled out right there for everyone. In the end it doesn't matter who the clone is or was. The fact of the matter was that whether it was Ben Reilly/real deal or Peter Parker/clone it was still the same guy. They may not have come to the exact same conclusions in dealing with certain situations but the intentions would remain the same...that clone or real thing...Peter Parker is a good man.

And I understand you want well written stories. Everybody wants well written stories. That's not really the point of this. My point in presenting it is that this thread is about the obvious progression for the character to go into. And in the 90's, during the Clone Saga, they had that obvious progression right there. Ben Reilly takes over, you've got a single swinging Peter Parker again. Then at the same time you've got Peter Parker and Mary Jane living happily ever after. And, what? You don't want to see Peter Parker live happily ever after? Then, obviously, you must be enjoying the current status of Spider-Man, right? Because happily ever after is far from what Peter Parker has been going through in the past 3 years of his comics.

In the end, were Spider-Man fans better off with Ben Reilly as the one true Spider-Man?

Because with the past three years of complaining and the years of speculation that Mary Jane is going to die...I REALLY wish that Ben Reilly was the one true Spider-Man.

 

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Yeah, the original plan was that Ben Reilly was the real deal. Only the problem was that many long time Spider-Man fans freaked out because the Spider-Man they were reading for the past decade or two was a clone. And I've always said, "Does it really matter THAT MUCH that he was the clone? It was STILL Peter Parker in that Spider-Man costume and it was still the SAME EXACT GUY!"

But the fans got their wish and it's one of the major reasons that the Clone Saga from the 90's was such a drug out process.

You had Ben Reilly taking the Spider-Man duties. You basically found a way to replace Peter Parker as Spider-Man...with Peter Parker. Pretty solid set up if you ask me. Peter Parker and Mary Jane moved to Portland Oregon to live happily ever after and start their new family.

But, of course, the fans didn't want to see Peter Parker live happily ever after. They wanted to make his life a living hell. So, that's what they did and they got some of the worst Spider-Man comics of all time because of it. And now most Spidey fans are throwing their arms up in the air because he's unmasked, because he had a new suit, because he died and was reborn, because Gwen Stacy had an affair with Norman Osborn, because JMS introduced a different possibility for Spider-Man's origin, and the list goes on and on and on and on.

And my question to Spider-Man fans, which no one has still answsered this, is would you have rather had Ben Reilly continue to be the one true Spider-Man while Peter Parker lived happily ever after with his family?

Seriously? I mean, it didn't bother you at all that all of the sudden, they were just like, "Hey, even though they're both Peter Parker, the one that you've been reading about for about 20 years - which is longer than some of you have been alive - is a fake one. This guy's the real deal. Yep."

Suddenly, Peter and his supporting cast - which still existed to a certain extent back then - vanished. Peter moved off to Oregon to live happily ever after with his wife, and we got Peter-with-a-new-name-and-hairdo working at a coffee shop and interacting with an entirely new supporting cast.

Sure, the old supporting cast was still around, as they all still lived in NYC. But it's not like Ben could just pop into the Daily Bugle and say, "Hey Betty! JJJ got any photo assignments?" because as far as the old characters were concerned, Ben was a character they'd never met before and had no history with whatsoever.

All of the sudden, we weren't dealing with Peter Parker anymore. We were dealing with a character who WAS Peter, but at the same time WASN'T. The old relationships that fans had been used to for the entirety of Spidey's history were instantly gone.

So, yeah, fan's cried "foul." Is it seriously that difficult to understand even if you disagree with it?

 

[SpideyInATree]

It is seriously that difficult to understand especially now with all that's gone on.

You mention that his supporting cast vanished. No they didn't. They vanished AFTER the clone saga was long over with.

And if Ben Reilly were to have stayed Spider-Man who's to say the original Peter Parker supporting cast would have vanished? They may have. But I believe the point in bringing Reilly in as Spider-Man was to GET A NEW SUPPORTING CAST. Yeah, JJJ is great. Robbie Robertson. Betty Brant. Flash Thompson. It's all good in the hood. But isn't some new blood nice every now and then?

And, obviously, it didn't bother me that Peter Parker was said to be the clone. Why? Because I didn't give two ****s whether or not the past 20 years of stories were by a "fake" Spider-Man because I didn't considering one or the other a fake. They were THE SAME GUY! Why is it difficult for some people to wrap their head around the fact that whether one guy is an original or a copy...they are the SAME GUY. It seriously made that much of a difference? It lessened the stories of the past twenty years because THAT Spider-Man was a "fake". I don't really see what was so "fake" about the character.

Personally, it was just angry fans wanting things the way they always want Spider-Man. The same boring song and dance each and everytime.

 

[Lt. Figgnuts]

It is seriously that difficult to understand especially now with all that's gone on.

You mention that his supporting cast vanished. No they didn't. They vanished AFTER the clone saga was long over with.

And if Ben Reilly were to have stayed Spider-Man who's to say the original Peter Parker supporting cast would have vanished? They may have. But I believe the point in bringing Reilly in as Spider-Man was to GET A NEW SUPPORTING CAST. Yeah, JJJ is great. Robbie Robertson. Betty Brant. Flash Thompson. It's all good in the hood. But isn't some new blood nice every now and then?

And, obviously, it didn't bother me that Peter Parker was said to be the clone. Why? Because I didn't give two ****s whether or not the past 20 years of stories were by a "fake" Spider-Man because I didn't considering one or the other a fake. They were THE SAME GUY! Why is it difficult for some people to wrap their head around the fact that whether one guy is an original or a copy...they are the SAME GUY. It seriously made that much of a difference? It lessened the stories of the past twenty years because THAT Spider-Man was a "fake". I don't really see what was so "fake" about the character.

Personally, it was just angry fans wanting things the way they always want Spider-Man. The same boring song and dance each and everytime.

New blood is fine. Completely replacing the "old blood" with "new blood" isn't so cool. And, again, even with the supporting characters still around, the character dynamics that fans had come to love were changed. Ben Reilly can't interact with Betty Brant or Robbie Robertson the way Peter Parker did, because Betty Brant and Robbie Robertson don't know who Ben Reilly is or that he is actually Peter Parker.

And, really, looking at it in light of today's Spidey, who pretty much HAS no supporting cast, something is better than nothing. But that is not the time in which the Clone Saga existed.

And they may have both been Peter Parker, but they weren't the same guy. One was the Peter Parker fans had been with since the beginning, and the other was essentially the same character with twenty less years of character development - which was the original intention (depsite the fact that they did begin to flesh out Ben's "missing" 20 years).

And even if they were the same guy and neither one of them is "fake," you'd still have to expect fans to forget or ignore the previous twenty years of stories.

"Hey, Ben, remember that time that Venom kidnapped your parents who were actually robots?"

"No, that wasn't me. That was my clone."

"...oh. Well, what about that time you went and fought that secret war with a bunch of other superheroes and came back with that rad new costume?"

"Clone again."

"Oh. Well, what about when Scorpion..."

"Nope."

"...when the Rhino?"

"Nuh-uh."

"Bart Hamilton?"

"Who?"

Seriously, what were the fans supposed to do? Real Peter or not, the "revelation" completely invalidated twenty years' worth of stories and character development (good and bad) in one fell swoop, and I think it was unwise (at best) of Marvel to expect fans to be like. "Mm, sounds good."

 

[SpideyInATree]

I don't really notice Spider-Man having in depth conversations with people about his past adventures in every issue of Amazing Spider-Man, but...you know.

No, when the Clone Saga first started they were not the same guy. Peter Parker, the clone, was on the path of Peter Parker. The real deal went on his own path and it was one without Aunt May. It was one without knowing Mary Jane and marrying her. It was a life of a loner on the road. So, yeah, they are going to end up being a bit different in the end.

But if you have ever read Spider-Man The Lost Years or Spider-Man Redemption you'd know that despite them being different because of their life paths...deep down they are STILL the same guy. And that's what the entire storyline was coming to a head about. That despite being clones they can end up being different...but in the end they are going to be the same guy no matter what. Clone or no clone.

But you really couldn't get that message with all the changes and constant complaining. When one month the story was set to go one way and by the next month your on a different path. And then the next thing you know it's all Norman Osborn's fault.

I also don't see how it invalidates twenty years of stories. Ok, those stories it wasn't THAT Spider-Man. That's why Peter Parker sits down and writes out his memoirs of his career as Spider-Man for Ben Reilly. Crap...they could have made it a miniseries and made money off of it. It's not like Peter Parker and Mary Jane were going to disappear from the stories. Ben would need to consult Peter and they'd be a really good tag team.

I guess I always saw the insane amount of positives and possibilities that could have opened up with Ben Reilly as Spider-Man. Because through all the years of this Clone Saga...what was REALLY solved? What did the story tell? That Peter Parker was the one true Spider-Man and that Norman Osborn has a hard on for making his life a living hell? That's what I got out of this? That's what Spider-Man fans wanted out of this? I didn't.

I wanted Ben Reilly to be the one true Spider-Man. So, while maybe you and other fans would be angry about your "precious 20 years being invalidated". I'm sitting here pissed off beyond belief that Ben Reilly wasn't the one true Spider-Man and all the great storylines that could have come out of this would never come to pass because, in the end, Spider-Man fans CANNOT handle change. And don't give me that dumb Doc Destruction quote "But we like GOOD change, blah blah blah". No, Spider-Man fans Cannot and never will be able to handle change, whether its good or bad they will never be able to handle it.

 

[Dragon]

I don't really notice Spider-Man having in depth conversations with people about his past adventures in every issue of Amazing Spider-Man, but...you know.

No, when the Clone Saga first started they were not the same guy. Peter Parker, the clone, was on the path of Peter Parker. The real deal went on his own path and it was one without Aunt May. It was one without knowing Mary Jane and marrying her. It was a life of a loner on the road. So, yeah, they are going to end up being a bit different in the end.

But if you have ever read Spider-Man The Lost Years or Spider-Man Redemption you'd know that despite them being different because of their life paths...deep down they are STILL the same guy. And that's what the entire storyline was coming to a head about. That despite being clones they can end up being different...but in the end they are going to be the same guy no matter what. Clone or no clone.

But you really couldn't get that message with all the changes and constant complaining. When one month the story was set to go one way and by the next month your on a different path. And then the next thing you know it's all Norman Osborn's fault.

I also don't see how it invalidates twenty years of stories. Ok, those stories it wasn't THAT Spider-Man. That's why Peter Parker sits down and writes out his memoirs of his career as Spider-Man for Ben Reilly. Crap...they could have made it a miniseries and made money off of it. It's not like Peter Parker and Mary Jane were going to disappear from the stories. Ben would need to consult Peter and they'd be a really good tag team.

I guess I always saw the insane amount of positives and possibilities that could have opened up with Ben Reilly as Spider-Man. Because through all the years of this Clone Saga...what was REALLY solved? What did the story tell? That Peter Parker was the one true Spider-Man and that Norman Osborn has a hard on for making his life a living hell? That's what I got out of this? That's what Spider-Man fans wanted out of this? I didn't.

I wanted Ben Reilly to be the one true Spider-Man. So, while maybe you and other fans would be angry about your "precious 20 years being invalidated". I'm sitting here pissed off beyond belief that Ben Reilly wasn't the one true Spider-Man and all the great storylines that could have come out of this would never come to pass because, in the end, Spider-Man fans CANNOT handle change. And don't give me that dumb Doc Destruction quote "But we like GOOD change, blah blah blah". No, Spider-Man fans Cannot and never will be able to handle change, whether its good or bad they will never be able to handle it.

Well, the fact that you're going on about the flip back to Peter Parker from Ben suggests you have just as much trouble with change. You simply didn't have the attachment to Peter Parker that most fans did.

BUT- seeing as how attached YOU got to Reilly in such a short time- can't you then understand how much more fans who had been following Peter for 10-20-30 years would be attached to Peter?

As for the current state of affairs- whether they kept Ben or not, things would have still gone down the drain with the talent that's been attached to Spider-Man over the years. In fact it probably would've been worse. The one thing that's kept Peter alive as a iconic character is that his strong history keeps fans loyal and believig things can still get better. It keeps good writers focused on recoverng the original glory of the character. Ben Reilly, being a cypher, not having that history, would have given the "talent" working on these books carte blanche to run even more wild.

 

[farmernudie]

SIAT: And my question to Spider-Man fans, which no one has still answsered this, is would you have rather had Ben Reilly continue to be the one true Spider-Man while Peter Parker lived happily ever after with his family?

So, I answered your question, based on my opinion, but the thing is, it seems when someone answers your questions, it is still not enough, and whether or not you agree, you can't just accept an other sides opinions.
I accept yours, and don't keep arguing like you do when someone tells you their opinions.

SIAT: In the end, were Spider-Man fans better off with Ben Reilly as the one true Spider-Man?

Because with the past three years of complaining and the years of speculation that Mary Jane is going to die...I REALLY wish that Ben Reilly was the one true Spider-Man.

No...in my personal opinion, we were NOT better off with Peter suddenly being the "fake", clone, or whathave you. THe writers can jsut as easily not progress Ben Reilly as they can Peter. They can not let Ben have a relationship and threaten to kill people off just the same. Would we be better off to let Clark Kent retire suddenly and have the writers tell us he is a fake clone all this time and the "real" Superman is some joe called "Ben Kent" that we have no emotional ties to all these years?? Ben Reilly can be a fine character per say, but he is no "spider-man" specifically.

SIAT: Everybody wants well written stories. That's not really the point of this..........Then, obviously, you must be enjoying the current status of Spider-Man, right? Because happily ever after is far from what Peter Parker has been going through in the past 3 years of his comics.

No, i am totally not pleased with the current status of Spidey....however, i've never asked for Pete to have a happily ever after either......There is still eons of room for Pete to continue and grow as Spidey...and good writing DOES have to do with it. If they would have chosen to have kept a fake clone as Spider-man and made PEter fake after all those years, MArvel's main character would have been flushed down the toilet because fans would NOT have accpeted such an insult after reading Pete for all their lives, plain and simple. They are attached. Again, not slamming Ben, just saying he is not spidey. (yeh yeh...they are the same..they are clones, you'll say...yeh yeh...) Kent Clark is a good character tho too, but he too is NOT Spider-man and can't just be mad einto him thru some cheap storyline.

SIAT: I wanted Ben Reilly to be the one true Spider-Man. So, while maybe you and other fans would be angry about your "precious 20 years being invalidated". I'm sitting here pissed off beyond belief that Ben Reilly wasn't the one true Spider-Man and all the great storylines that could have come out of this would never come to pass because, in the end, Spider-Man fans CANNOT handle change. And don't give me that dumb Doc Destruction quote "But we like GOOD change, blah blah blah". No, Spider-Man fans Cannot and never will be able to handle change, whether its good or bad they will never be able to handle it.

I personally think, maybe's its just me tho, think Spider-man fans CAN handle change. I am not sure why after reading so many people's posts, you can't acknowledge the WHY people like a character after investing their whole LIFE in him. Especially since you are so invested in BEN only after a few months, as DRAGON pointed out. You don't have to agree, i am jsut saying i can't see how you just can't acknowledge how they feel. It is the same base feeling you have except for the flip side. To say Spider-Man fans can't handle change because someone wants to write a story invalidating Pete as being the real spider-man all of the sudden proves nothing. There IS a difference between good change; change that is natural and true to the character and bad change that is WAY OUT THERE. PETER PARKER IS THE TOTAL CORE OF SPIDER-MAN. THE CORE. It seems to me that the only way to prove to yYOU that spidey fans love change is for them to just lay down and accept everything that is written and have absolutely NO OPINION unless it is one involving cheerleading and pom poms.

If someone re-released Star Wars today, with a bold new change, revelations galore storyline ...that Princess Leigha slept with Darth Vader once and that Luke was NOT Vader's son but a clone and that Ben Reilly Skywalker was the real jedi, and yoda suddenly shot lightsabers out of his wrists organically, it would NOT go over well. ....Tho you would blame the fans.

There IS dumb change.

 

[Lt. Figgnuts]

I don't really notice Spider-Man having in depth conversations with people about his past adventures in every issue of Amazing Spider-Man, but...you know.

Well, I was using that more as an exaggerated example as opposed to anything else.

What I was getting at is that there were plenty of classic stories during that twenty years that, if Ben Reilly had ended up being the "real" Peter, might not have necessarily invalidated them completely, but would mean that they were almost completely irrelevant to the character starring in Amazing Spider-Man, and therefore any character development that took place in that time is thrown out the window.

Like Dragon said, the fervor came more out of the fact that the character they had followed 30+ years was being pushed aside and told he wasn't real.

It's not like Peter Parker and Mary Jane were going to disappear from the stories. Ben would need to consult Peter and they'd be a really good tag team.

I seem to recall that the original intention of moving Peter and MJ out to Portland was to write them out of the books permenantly, and then the subsequent mini in which Peter lost his powers - I want to say "Final Chapter"? - was intended to close the book on the character for good.

I agree, however, about the tag team part. I wouldn't have minded Ben sticking around, just not as Spider-Man. He could have become a different spider-themed hero and had his own adventures.

 

[freemadison]

I'll admit that I'm one of the biggest Ben Reilly fans out there and I'd pay ****loads of money for regular monthly of his (or any sort of merch Marvel puts out). But I will say that it WAS a slap in the face to have ol' Pete be the clone. I mean I loved the Clone Saga, but i'd always feel sorry for Pete in the stories following the "revelation".

The complete role reversal between the two really bugged me at first (especially when they were making jokes with each other). I actually wouldn't feel that sorry when Ben was complaining about how he "lost" 5 years of his life and resentment for his "clone" would seep out in the exposition. However, I COMPLETELY sympathized and loved his character when he was the clone who was forced to forge his own path and identity and missed New York, Pete's family, and Pete's memories.

When Pete was the clone, it was agonizing to watch him break down (even if it's realistic and i DO accept it as proper characterization) and even more agonizing to see him feel guilty about having the name, wife, and life of the man he was cloned from.

Personally, I wouldn't have minded Ben Reilly being the only Spider-Man but only if he was still the clone. I would've been completely ok with Spider-Ben being a clone while the real Parker remained an important supporting character with his own family (which included Ben) to deal with.

I know the whole "legacy" thing is more of a DC tactic but I wouldn't have minded Reilly being the Kyle Rayner of Marvel and at some point (years later) Peter returning to the Spidey mantle ala Hal Jordan style. Heck at that point I wouldn't have minded Ben Reilly even dying heroically, causing even more grief in Parker's life and forcing him to return to being Spidey (some may argue that this already happened but certainly not the way it should have. It shouldn't have been a reaction to fan backlash but it should've broke the majority of readers hearts instead of making them ecstatic). It would have easily been one of the most important moments in the Spider-Man mythos and Reilly's death maybe could have been on par with Gwen Stacy and Uncle Ben's death.

But instead, Ben Reilly = Cult Classic.

p.s. sorry for the long post. i haven't done a long post in a while. t:

 

[DACrowe]

Too much fighting. I'll just make my point short and sweet.

Spidey fighting foes in costume is what defines the character. He is a superhero in a comic book. BUT hi minteracting with his supporting cast and being a realistic person with woes is what distinguishes him from every other spandex wearing shmuck in comicdom. I like plenty of other comics, but Spidey's need to help people is surpassed by his personal woes. He develops as a character by facing them. His supporting cast and his point in life defines eras and defines the characters. Rarely is it the villains he fights, but where he is (high schooler, college man, single, married, steady job, unemployed, etc.) that marks that point (his recovery over losing Gwen and MJ helping him and him starting to date her is much more remembered than say him fighting Kraven in this particular issue).

Him progressing into a father (something he obvioiusly wants to be) follows thhis logic and formulla. Him stuck in a stastic timeline just fighting a new villain every issue/arc does not.

 

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Him progressing into a father (something he obvioiusly wants to be) follows thhis logic and formulla. Him stuck in a stastic timeline just fighting a new villain every issue/arc does not.

While I agree with the majority of your post, I'm still not so sure about this part.

It's not that I don't think it's possible to pull off "Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Daddy" successfully. I think given the right creative teams and the right amount of actual creative talent and - most of all - a willingness to use the baby for stories other than sappy/cliched drivel, it could seriously work out better than people think.

I don't think that this era of Spidey is the right time, though. Perhaps someday, but not today. Right now, I'll settle for well-written, character-driven stories that focus on a guy living his life - a guy who just happens to dress up in pajamas and fight criminals.

 

[SpideyInATree]

So, I answered your question, based on my opinion, but the thing is, it seems when someone answers your questions, it is still not enough, and whether or not you agree, you can't just accept an other sides opinions.
I accept yours, and don't keep arguing like you do when someone tells you their opinions.

No...in my personal opinion, we were NOT better off with Peter suddenly being the "fake", clone, or whathave you. THe writers can jsut as easily not progress Ben Reilly as they can Peter. They can not let Ben have a relationship and threaten to kill people off just the same. Would we be better off to let Clark Kent retire suddenly and have the writers tell us he is a fake clone all this time and the "real" Superman is some joe called "Ben Kent" that we have no emotional ties to all these years?? Ben Reilly can be a fine character per say, but he is no "spider-man" specifically.

No, i am totally not pleased with the current status of Spidey....however, i've never asked for Pete to have a happily ever after either......There is still eons of room for Pete to continue and grow as Spidey...and good writing DOES have to do with it. If they would have chosen to have kept a fake clone as Spider-man and made PEter fake after all those years, MArvel's main character would have been flushed down the toilet because fans would NOT have accpeted such an insult after reading Pete for all their lives, plain and simple. They are attached. Again, not slamming Ben, just saying he is not spidey. (yeh yeh...they are the same..they are clones, you'll say...yeh yeh...) Kent Clark is a good character tho too, but he too is NOT Spider-man and can't just be mad einto him thru some cheap storyline.

I personally think, maybe's its just me tho, think Spider-man fans CAN handle change. I am not sure why after reading so many people's posts, you can't acknowledge the WHY people like a character after investing their whole LIFE in him. Especially since you are so invested in BEN only after a few months, as DRAGON pointed out. You don't have to agree, i am jsut saying i can't see how you just can't acknowledge how they feel. It is the same base feeling you have except for the flip side. To say Spider-Man fans can't handle change because someone wants to write a story invalidating Pete as being the real spider-man all of the sudden proves nothing. There IS a difference between good change; change that is natural and true to the character and bad change that is WAY OUT THERE. PETER PARKER IS THE TOTAL CORE OF SPIDER-MAN. THE CORE. It seems to me that the only way to prove to yYOU that spidey fans love change is for them to just lay down and accept everything that is written and have absolutely NO OPINION unless it is one involving cheerleading and pom poms.

If someone re-released Star Wars today, with a bold new change, revelations galore storyline ...that Princess Leigha slept with Darth Vader once and that Luke was NOT Vader's son but a clone and that Ben Reilly Skywalker was the real jedi, and yoda suddenly shot lightsabers out of his wrists organically, it would NOT go over well. ....Tho you would blame the fans.

There IS dumb change.

Ok. You answered my question. Congratulations. The reason most of us are here are to discuss the comics. I wanted to discuss the answers and go further in depth of how people really feel about it. Sorry for wanting to have a debate?

And, yes, there is dumb change. But it still doesn't change the fact that Spider-Man fans, out of all comic book fans, have difficulty handled change. Whether it's good, bad, stupid, lame, idiotic, fantasmic, great, grand, or wonderful...they don't handle it well.

And Star Wars is a horrible example dude. Darth Vader is Leia's dad, dude. That's some serious incest. Though Luke did kiss her in Episode 4, so I guess you really aren't going too far. And it's still a horrible example.

Also, Ben Reilly was around a lot longer than a "few months", dude. He was in the comics for years and when they have it PLANNED that he's going to be taking over as Spider-Man they are going to make him more likable, which they did. But NOBODY is getting my point it seems.

Peter Parker is Ben Reilly. Ben Reilly IS Peter Parker. Yes, they had slight differences in personality because Peter stayed with the regular Spidey life and Ben Reilly went on the road. But THEY ARE STILL THE SAME EXACT PERSON DEEP DOWN INSIDE. THEY ARE STILL BOTH PETER F'N PARKER. In my opinion, I will never see what the big deal was about him being the clone or the real deal has to do with it. In the end, Peter Parker was still Spider-Man...clone or not. So, the past 20 years of stories are made worthless because a FICTIONAL CHARACTER is told to you that he was a clone of the original? I guess I'm having trouble grasping what would make people angry.

I will always see the 90's Clone Saga as the perfect progression in the mythos of Spider-Man. It's just too bad the fans couldn't handle the change and that the big wigs at Marvel couldn't handle the criticism. It's one thing I'll give Quesada credit for...at least he can take all the criticism and do what he feels needs to be done (regardless of whether he's right or wrong) and sticks with it.