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Discussion in 'Batman World' started by Thread Manager, Mar 29, 2014.
This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]357815[/split]
I'm not sure what everyones final opinion on Forever is, but i would like to know. so far, ive been hearing mixed reviews, some hate it, some love it, and some are luke warm about it. my question for this thread is: Is batman forever a "decent" batman movie, even if its close to being the disaster B&R was? for me, im lukewarm about it, i felt that kilmer, even though not the best bruce wayne/Batman, did try to be a good batman, but under the direction of schumacher, he wound up not being the best Bman he could be. clooney however.....dont get me started, horrible. but kilmer i felt was a bit better. plus, i felt like forever still had a darkness to it (though a heck of a lot more colorful then burtons), and infinitly more darker then horrible B&R, so anyways im just curious what you all think of Forever, your 'final' opinons??
the music in that scene is fantastic
I love that Nightwing reference...
The BF panther suit was awesome.
This is a great movie, and as for Two-Face, even a campy TLJ is a better actor than Aaron Eckhardt. AE is nowhere near the same league as TLJ. If TLJ had played Two-Face more in line with the comics, then it would have been the best Two-Face ever. Under Siege and Blown Away already confirmed he could play a great villain, anyway.
You must be joking. Tommy Lee Jones' one note hammy performance doesn't come within spitting distance of the amazing emotional performance Eckhart gave.
You're either blindly biased, or trying to provoke a reaction saying that.
The Two-Face transformation was the best TF/AE scene in the movie, so going by only that scene, however there is no equivalent scene to compare it to.
The only good thing about TLJ's Two-Face was the first few seconds he was introduced, once the camera shows his scarred side and he says "LUCK!" it goes downhill from there.
I think his performance is pretty entertaining. Sure, I would have liked a darker TLJ (something more like his performances in Under Siege or Blown Away), but zany TLJ is fun as well.
TLJ Two Face = one of the worst comic book movie villains ever. I heard Jones was a difficult a-hole to work with too in this. Must have been because he had to play such a lame-o kind of villain heh.
C'mon now, the bank robbery/helicopter fight, the circus where he kills Dick Grayson's family, the batmobile chase and Nygma's party heist where he almost kills Batman. Those were awesome scenes.
Everyone also forgets that Two-Face reverts back to Harvey Dent just before he plunges to his death. I love that scene.
They were all campy camp scenes and Jones sucked in all of them. The Grayson death scene was ok but not because of goofy Two Face. It was for O'Donnell and Kilmer's reactions to the dead Graysons.
You're like the first peep I've ever seen to try and defend the awfulness of Jones Two Face. Heh I guess even the suckiest villains have at least one fan.
Heh they probably forget it because they ain't impressed by Jones turning off his goofy Two Face voice for a minute and speaking in a normal voice.
I'm not as bothered by camp as some people. Ideally, I'd like something between TLJ and AE. I just don't think TLJ is as bad as everyone says. At least his Two-Face wasn't motivated by revenge over the death of his love interest, which really seemed pathetic and hokey to me. Two-Face is supposed to be a gangster, not Joker's pawn in his larger scheme to prove his point about people basically being savage (ok, you can argue that TLJ is Riddler's pawn, but not until at least halfway through the movie).
No he was motivated by revenge against Batman, who wasn't even to blame for what happened to him. Which was ten times more hokey and silly.
There are many Batman stories where Two Face is not a gangster trying to rob the second bank of Gotham of 2 million dollars at 2PM. The best Two Face stories are the character driven emotional ones. And that's what Eckhart's one had. He was not Joker's pawn. Joker did not tell him what to do or how to do it. He did not team with Joker. They had one scene together, where Joker came close to being killed by Two Face only he got lucky with the good side of the coin.
Jones' Two Face was a one dimensional hammy caricature who is largely forgotten. He laughed more than the Joker did, and spent the movie trying to out camp Carey's Riddler. I won't even get started on him constantly tossing the coin til he gets the side he wants. He was an insult to everything the character stands for. I don't know how anyone can enjoy such a horrid bastardization, and truly awful campy one note performance. But each to their own.
Ah, the internet. The only place where someone can be attacked for saying "I kinda like it and didn't think it was so bad."
He ain't being attacked. Ain't nobody calling him names or saying he's stupid for liking Jones' Two Face. Some peeps have soft spots for lame-o villains. Jones Two Face was as lame-o as they come.
Two Face ain't a campy villain. Instantly ruins him. Two Face don't keep flipping the coin to get the side he wants because that totally defeats the purpose of the coin. He doesn't laugh his ass off every 2 seconds like a hyper active kid. Yup he's totally tied to Riddler for half the movie as his pawn. A pink haired Riddler pulling his strings heh.
Cool fan made BF trailer I found on Youtube.
I was first introduced to character through the Batman animated series with Kevin Conroy, which until about 5 years ago, which was for me, the pinnacle of the Batman franchise. Then I discovered Batman Returns, which despite all it's faults, is my absolute favorite incarnation of the character. Here's how I would rate the live action films. Batman, a 6, Batman Returns, 10, Batman Begins, 8, The Dark Knight, 7, and The Dark Knight Rises, a 9.
And then there's Batman Forever. I believe it's a unfair to lump this in with Batman&Robin. That is infamous for being total crap, but if you watch Forever, with all it's flaws, which I don't deny there are, it bears little resemblance to it's craptacular sequel. Why? First off, there are actual characters here, and a story which holds them together. First, Val Kilmer as Wayne/Batman. Say what you want about some of his dialogue, of which there really is only but a few which are truly groan inducing, I really felt for his fascinating portrayal as a man deeply in pain by his trauma and his wish to escape it and find some semblance of of happiness. And in costume, he just has the presence that I bought as being Batman, something I feel Bale lacked sometimes when he was in the costume.
Then there's Chase Meridian and Dick Grayson. The former actually felt like she contributed to the character of Batman, whereas Vicky Vale and Rachael Dawes sorta felt like they were thrown in to simply have a female character in the films. And unlike those two, Kidman and Kilmer had actual chemistry together. Then there's Robin. Yes, he's too old, no argument here. Aside from that though, I feel he does a really great job of being a mirror to Bruce, before he committed to his crusade and lost any semblance of normality and happiness in his own life. Plus, I just believe if Robin were to ever be introduced in live action, this was pretty much the best way it could be done, without film focusing more on Robin then Batman.
Before I move on the the biggest problems with the film, first let me comment on the look and feel of it. Most people are bothered by the over the top neon and campiness of the film. Yes, it's it overdone, but I feel for the most part, it serves it's purpose well. I feel that the neon and gaudiness represents Gotham's garishness and decadence, like Las Vegas on steroids. As for the camp, I'd just like to say the other films had it as well, just not to this extent. Batman Returns had rocket penguins, Begins had bad gangster clique Falcone, Knight had the Russian ad all his lines, and Rises had Bane. I'm not saying they are all equal, just that none are free from it entirely, and at least Forever had some purpose behind it. Remember, Forever was just on the heels of Returns, which was extremely criticized for being too dark.
Now for what most people feel is this films biggest problems, the villains. yes, Two face IS pretty much indefensible, although he did have one or two decent scenes, like the circus. Luckily, I feel the Riddler makes up for it. Sure, a lot of the time it's just Jim Carrey being Jim Carrey but often there's a tragic and subtle menace to his character's obsession with Wayne and his overall narcissism, words which I feel perfectly encapsulate the Riddler as a character.
Ad I would just like to add, I feel this film has one of the best scenes of any Batman film, namely Bruce's flashback to the cave. So, with these thoughts, perhaps another look could be had to this, I feel, is an underrated iteration of Batman. Thanks for your time.
still enjoy carrey's performance as riddler t:
Re-arranging and digging through my old toy stash yesterday and found this guy. Love this figure and the fact I hadn't lost his cane.
This is addressed in the deleted scenes of Two-Face/Batman in the helicopter. You can watch it in the special features on the dvd/blu-ray.
Deleted scenes don't count. If it ain't in the movie it doesn't count.