The Official Batman Returns Thread

[Superwoman Prime]

Great avatar, JP.

 

[JP]

Why thank you.

 

[snwboarder88]

Bump

 

[Damiean Dark]

I actually HATED returns when i first saw it when i was around twelve (a dodgeypirate tape) i thought they massacared the batman franchise and the villains where terrible it was only years later when i grew and got older i realised what an amazing movie it was the acting and interaction between the characters has never been bettered in a hero movie.

 

[ab38416]

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[Mr. Socko]

I actually agree with what Burton says there, except the "Batman's not a strapping macho man." I'll take it as he was just referring to his films and not Batman in general because the real one, of the comics, really is a strapping macho man.

 

[ab38416]

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[Gianakin_]

“A square jaw does not make Batman. It's all about Bruce Wayne and an audience believing in Bruce Wayne. If we can create a portrayal of a guy so obsessed and so driven - nearly to the point of being psychotic - then we can convince them that he's the guy capable of dressing up like a Bat. He puts on a bat suit because he NEEDS to. Because he’s not this gigantic, strapping macho man. Because the knowledge of his vulnerability compels him to don the masquerade of the invincible strong man he knows he is not. It’s like, if he had gotten therapy he wouldn’t be putting on a bat suit. He didn’t, so this is his therapy” – TIM BURTON

He gets it IMO, the same way Nolan and Raimi get it. Believe in the man behind the mask, and you'll believe the symbol he is when he dons the costume.

 

[The Empire Ape]

“A square jaw does not make Batman. It's all about Bruce Wayne and an audience believing in Bruce Wayne. If we can create a portrayal of a guy so obsessed and so driven - nearly to the point of being psychotic - then we can convince them that he's the guy capable of dressing up like a Bat. He puts on a bat suit because he NEEDS to. Because he’s not this gigantic, strapping macho man. Because the knowledge of his vulnerability compels him to don the masquerade of the invincible strong man he knows he is not. It’s like, if he had gotten therapy he wouldn’t be putting on a bat suit. He didn’t, so this is his therapy” – TIM BURTON

Well, I think he was just trying to justify Keaton. He wanted Keaton, so he said this. Because even the most muscular man would get problems with weapons and a large number of guys

 

[snwboarder88]

The Dark Knight was AWESOME!

But Batman Returns continues to be my favorite BatFilm.

Just amazing story, Characters, Humor, for me BR just has this feeling about it that is Batman. Somthing i dont think Nolan has captured...then again he might not be trying to.

Burton really got the erie feeling that Gotham should have, and the scenes Between Batman and Catwoman are amazing.

Plus...could the dialogue be any more witty!

Still my #1 Batman Film!

 

[DACrowe]

Well it may be my fourth favorite but I second that it is a great movie and probably the most artistic and creative Batman movie made to date. I'd also say Burton explored these characters far deeper and used a much richer cinematic vernacular in telling his story that pulled heavily from German Expressionism, film noir, grande guignol, etc. than in B'89.

A very beautiful, haunting and bizarre movie.

 

[obiwan]

BR was much more of an adult movie than TDK though. The problem with BR was the mass marketing of it to kids. The merchandise was everywhere. I think the only movie I've seen since with as much promotion aside from the newer SW movies was Jurassic Park. But ya it was mostly how violent, dark, and sexual BR turned out to be that made it a horrible kids movie. TDK wasn't marketed to kids like BR was by a long shot. I really didn't think TDK was that dark or twisted.. just more serious.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

What other movie franchise (or character) could give you two great movies (Returns and TDK) that are so radically different?

 

[obiwan]

bale looks like val kilmer in that pic. actually, there were alot of moments in TDK where i thought bale looked like kilmer in the cowl.

 

[snwboarder88]

What other movie franchise (or character) could give you two great movies (Returns and TDK) that are so radically different?

Great Point!

Just like different authors take on Batman in comic and change things to their own taste, i really enjoy how Burton, Nolan, and even that Shu guy...interperated Batman.

How boring would it be to have 6 movies all the same!!!

 

[snwboarder88]

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[Cain]

Very good film not great but almost great lots of stand out performances and rock solid direction. Still strange how a major studio let Burton make a german expressionistic summer blockbuster with dickensian themes and other nods that people who know too much crap for their own good about movies and art will catch with repeat viewings lol. Probably one of the most divisive films of all time, I'm definitely in the love it category. It's very entertaining.

 

[DarkKnight245]

I feel Returns is the unsung hero of the Burton/Schumacher series. It's so wrongly underrated. I loved how dark and sinister it was which is something Burton brought to Batman really well. He captured Batman's dark side and always kept it dark. He showed us that Batman is more then just a guy in a batsuit. Danny and Michelle were excellent as Penguin and Catwoman. It's a shame that Burton wasn't able to do Forever since he wanted to make it exactly like Returns. I would have liked to have seen another Returns. It's my 2nd fav Batman movie.

 

[Cain]

Upping cuase I just came across a couple of interesting retrospective reviews

http://www.dvdverdict.com/reviews/batmanreturnsse.php

Spoiler

As with the 1989 release of Batman, I was at the midnight showing with every other comic book geek in the Chicago suburbs. Yet, the feeling I had leaving the theater early that morning was profoundly different. To be honest, I didn't know what to think. Batman Returns was unlike any other film I'd experienced. If I had to think of four words that night to describe it, I'd have chosen…

Bleak

The wintry setting made the theater's air-conditioning that much colder.

Raw

Like chapped winter skin, the character's emotions envelop you in a sheath of exposed nerve endings.

Vulnerable

From the opening sequence to the final credits, there's an overwhelming sense of sadness that permeates nearly every frame.

Personal

I'd never felt such empathy for heroes and villains alike. There are no winners here. Even in victory, there is loss.

I wasn't the only one perplexed. Leaving the theater, it wasn't hard to overhear fellow audience members toss around phrases such as "I hated it," "That wasn't Batman," and "See, I knew they'd screw it up." Even though I was experiencing strong emotions, contempt wasn't one of them.

Now, having seen Batman Returns more than a dozen times over the course of the past 13 years, I firmly believe many films cannot be fully appreciated after only one viewing.

Oh, and those feelings I was struggling with on opening night? I now recognize them as…

Awe—at the world Burton and his creative team created.

Reverence—for peeling back and delving deep beneath the surface layers of these decades old characters to discover their humanity.

Am I gushing? Perhaps…but not without good reason.
Whereas other comic book films—X-Men, Fantastic Four, Spider-man—have taken the explosive, CGI, Jerry Bruckheimer route, Batman Returns is subtle, grounded, and real. Batman is a human consumed by the desire for justice. He has no super-human abilities far beyond those of mortal men. Batman's arsenal is made up of exceptional observation skills, a sharp intellect, finely honed physical skills, and the innate ability to emotionally detach from a stressful situation. Burton exploits this humanity as the foundation upon which the film is built.
The true power of Batman Returns is found in the character relationships…

"After dark all cats are leopards."—Native American Proverb

Selina and Max

Here we have the archetypal alpha-male—rich, powerful, feared—controlling the subservient zeta-female—meek, eager to please, lacking any self-confidence. Selina's awakening doesn't turn the tables, but rather puts her on a level playing field, opening Max's eyes to the opportunities her newfound confidence and overt sexuality represents, which in turn raises his own game. In essence, they've gone from show dog and house cat to timber wolf and black panther.

"Every bird loves to hear himself sing."—Italian Proverb

Max and Oswald

Yet another opportunistic pairing. Oswald blackmails Max into setting his plans in motion. Yet, at the same time, Max sees this as an opportunity to expand his own influence over the City of Gotham. Neither is trusting of the other, and both have built-in escape plans to be activated at the first sign of trouble. Even so, the awareness they receive from working together accelerates their respective personal agendas in ways neither anticipated.

"He who plays with a cat must bear its scratches."—Chinese Proverb

Penguin and Catwoman

A match made in hell. His interest in her is nothing more than unbridled lust. She sees him as little more than yet another tool to be exploited in pursuit of vengeance against The Batman. Their relationship is tenuous and short-lived, but no less entertaining.

"The beginning of love is to let those we love be perfectly themselves, and not twist them to fit our own image. Otherwise, we love only the reflection of ourselves we find in them."—author and monk Thomas Merton

Catwoman and Batman

A sadistic game of cat and mouse. She plays him and he allows it. Both are getting what they want—dangerous sexual excitement in the form of a worthy adversary.

"Love takes off masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within."—playwright James Arthur Baldwin

Bruce and Selina

Two lost souls, each drawn to the power the other generates, simply by knowing their true selves. So close they are to finding completeness in sharing themselves with another, and yet so afraid of revealing their secrets for fear of losing that very identity. The moment those masks are removed is the most touching and heartbreaking scene of the entire film.

Beautifully written and skillfully portrayed, Batman Returns showcases an ensemble par excellence. Michael Keaton returns to the role—somewhat hesitantly, as the story goes—giving Bruce depth of character and emotion. Often times, no dialogue is required to receive the volumes of subtext coming through loud and clear.

Michael Gough (Sleepy Hollow) is once again by Keaton's side as Alfred Pennyworth—surrogate father, confidant, and voice of reason. Danny DeVito is brilliantly unrecognizable as Penguin, the grotesque chief denizen of Gotham's literal underworld.

Michelle Pfieffer gives a career making transformation from the hopelessly awkward Selina to the supremely commanding Catwoman. Christopher Walken once again brightens the screen with yet another masterful, smarmy psychopath in the body of Max Shreck. Let's face it, you will not find a superhero film with more depth of performance authenticity than is captured here.

Burton and company seal the deal with production values grander than the character's 75-year history. Shifting locations from London to Los Angeles, production design Bo Welch had 16 of Hollywood's largest soundstages upon which to build and chill a brand new Gotham. More creative control—earned through the enhanced box office respectability of Batman and Edward Scissorhands—gives Batman Returns the director's unique visual stamp. Like the cross section of a grand old tree, Gotham's history can be seen in its conglomeration of architectural styles—neo-classical here, art deco there—merging together to show it's innate ability to survive despite the decades of moral and spiritual degradation that has overtaken it. In essence, the city becomes as important a character as those who populate it.

With design as the infrastructure and story/acting as the building blocks, the heart of the film belongs to composer Danny Elfman's magnificent score. With more than twice the music of an average film, Elfman uses the holidays to underscore the character's conflicted emotions and dastardly manipulations. His themes will stay will you long after the final credits roll.

http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=4940

Spoiler

Strap in, kids. I’ve got a lot to say about this deeply misunderstood film. Upon its initial release, BATMAN RETURNS was deemed a commercial disappointment, and the general public seemed to feel that, in some way, Tim Burton had made a mistake, or had "ruined" the BATMAN sequel. I was a fan even then, and my love of the film has only grown in the years since. However, even with films I am fond of, I force myself to take long breaks between viewings. The last time I watched BR was in early ‘95, on laserdisc. After that, it sat on a shelf, just waiting for me to find the right time to pick it back up and re-examine its special wonders. The release of Joel Schumacher’s epic BATMAN IN RUBBER seemed to be the right time.

Boy, am I glad I did. BATMAN RETURNS was a whole new film for me, and a better one than ever before. This was the first time I truly picked up on what I believe the purpose of the film is. It’s something much bigger than just making a "cool superhero movie." In fact, I think the last thing on Burton’s mind was telling a typical action story.

Instead, this is a tribute to German Expressionism, and a chance to examine the fragmentation of personality. It’s a witty, multi-leveled screenplay that reveals greater riches the deeper the viewer digs, and there are any number of greatish performances to choose from. Of course, there’s Michael Keaton at the heart of the thing.

Let me first say that I’m no great admirer of the original 1989 BATMAN, having felt it was a case of missed potential. In particular, I never felt that Keaton really clicked with his dual role. By contrast, his work in the sequel is bold, cool, and confident. His performance reveals a man who has forgotten how to effectively be Bruce Wayne. He’s not really alive until he puts on the Batsuit and goes to work. He is truly losing his grip on "normal" life, and he doesn’t seem to mind in the least. A common criticism of the film is that it’s not really about Batman... but that’s not true. Not at all. In fact, every character in this movie is in some way a dark, perverted mirror of the various fragments of Bruce/Batman’s shattered personality.

There’s The Penguin... left without parents to rot, planning revenge on the forces that be. Wayne works his parental loss out nightly, and that’s really all The Penguin is doing. They simply act out in very different ways. In the first scene of The Penguin on TV, Bruce is shaken by his story. When Alfred asks why, Bruce can only mumble, "I hope he finds his parents." There’s also a sense that Bruce does not "belong" among normal people anymore. He seems uncomfortable with the most mundane things. He’s as much a freak on the inside as The Penguin is on the outside. Danny DeVito does some of the finest work of his career here, and Stan Winston’s brilliant makeup helps him in large part. There’s no doubt that this particular incarnation of The Penguin waddled out of the mind of Tim Burton... even without seeing his sketches of the character, I can guess exactly what they looked like.

This is a fantastic realization of one of Tim’s ideas, brought to life. It’s a wicked reimagining of the character, and unlike the changes Joel Schumacher has made to comic continuity, there’s a reason for it. Burton’s work always deals with outsiders, characters on the fringe, and The Penguin is a signature creation. It’s hard to believe that anyone could just call him "the bad guy" of the piece after the haunting opening sequence, one of the finest five minute segments of Tim’s career as a filmmaker so far. Like a dark, twisted Moses, the baby Cobblepot is set afloat, only to be taken in by... penguins in the sewers?! That’s the first hint that this is not going to be some safe, predictable comic book ride.

Catwoman, or Selina Kyle, is a totally different side of Batman’s personality, reflected back and distorted. The timid Kyle really comes into her own following her trauma, finding a voice and a power that she would have never had the nerve to claim as her own if not for Max Shreck’s actions. She is clearly the side of Batman that gets off on the whole thing, and I don’t mean that flippantly. If you really watch Batman in this movie, he loves his toys and his gadgets. Given the choice between the stairs or his funky Iron Maiden elevator chute, he takes the chute. After all... that’s why he built it, right? I can believe this particular Bruce Wayne is the kind of guy who would spend the time and the money to build all these bizarre, almost fetishistic items. As much as Schumacher wanted to make the "kinky" Batman, a sculpted butt does not signify kink. It’s behavior, the psychology of what makes these people tick. That’s why Bruce and Selina are so drawn to one another. They recognize something in each other, some sort of strange energy. Just as much as it attracts them, it also drives them apart.

The "love" scene set on the couch in Wayne Manor is smart and funny because it acknowledges the double life they’re leading, with them wanting to give in completely, but with their wounds keeping them apart. The very best moment in the movie is at Shreck’s costume ball, when the only two people to show up without masks are Selina and Bruce, although the argument could be made that those are their masks... that they are only really themselves as Catwoman and Batman. As the two of them dance, we see that Selina is holding on to the last bit of her sanity as best she can, and that she really wants to do what she sees as "good" by killing Shreck. Bruce tries to talk her out of it, and the two of them accidentally end up echoing some dialogue they had said to each other earlier in their other personas. "A kiss can be even deadlier if you mean it..." Bruce slips, and there is a moment, wonderfully performed by Keaton and Pfeiffer, of pure recognition. Bruce pulls her to himself, and as tears fill her eyes, she says, torn apart by the thought, "Does this mean we have to start fighting?" There has been no more human or naked moment in any of the films so far.

Finally, there’s Shreck, the "extra" villain. I’ve heard people say that he’s useless, that he adds nothing to the film. Yet, he manages to mirror another part of Bruce, the businessman. Even though Wayne seems to be a decent sort, it’s hard to be a billionaire and be completely clean. Bruce manages to stay above the daily dirt of his business empire, detached and therefore "innocent." Shreck, on the other hand, revels in his power to buy and sell practically anyone or anything. His manipulations of Gotham politics and money are in direct opposition to Bruce’s hands-off quality. He is exactly what Bruce could become with just a little push. So is Catwoman, and so is The Penguin. The fact that each of these characters cuts so close is what really fuels Batman in this film. He may not recognize or acknowledge what really scares him about this trio, but we can.

The creepiest moment in the whole thing is when Selina has just trashed Shreck’s department store, and she comes tumbling out to find Batman and The Penguin already exchanging threats. They’re alone, and they’re all three able to be honest about who and what they are. The moment is interrupted by the explosion of the store, but for just a moment, there is no one else in Gotham. We’re truly deep inside Batman’s warped head. Tim’s visuals in this film are extraordinary, and Bo Welch, his production designer deserves as much of the credit as Stefan Czapsky, his photographer. It’s appropriate that the film is set during the Christmas season, because it’s chilly, through and through.

These people are all broken, in pain, and acting out. The "normal" people are just as freaky in their own ways. There’s the shallow, vapid Ice Princess, the ineffectual Mayor, and even Alfred, frustrated and growing impatient with the nightly prowls of his employer. There is humor here, but it’s the kind that makes you uncomfortable even as you laugh. Burton must have read every single review for the original BATMAN, because he addresses some of the most common complaints about that film. One bit of dialogue in particular has Wayne taking shots at Alfred for letting Vicki Vale into the Batcave, one of the first movie’s most unrepentantly stupid moves.

There’s little oddball touches, like Batman in the Batcave answering the phone with his mask still on (just how well does one hear through several inches of rubber, anyway?) or Bruce Wayne doing a scratch on the CD he uses to ruin The Penguin. They’re small, though, not like the massive punchlines of the first film. And there’s genuine pathos, too. The final moments between Selina/Catwoman and Batman/Bruce are agonizing. Each of them desperately wants and needs a human connection, but Selina manages to recognize that she’s too far gone to turn back. Rather than drag Bruce down with her, she seems to sacrifice herself, taking Shreck out for good.

The fact that Bruce pulls off his mask when he faces her shows him reaching out, trying to be "normal," trying for what he thinks everyone else has. The rejection destroys him, though, and sets the stage for a darker, even more troubled Batman that never surfaced, thanks to the guiding hand of Warner execs and the magic of Goldsman/Schumacher. It’s a shame... if Burton had kept at it, who knows where he would have taken the character? He proves conclusively with this film that he understands the complexity and psychological richness inherent to the character. It’s a shame we’ll never know how much further he could have gone.

 

[obiwan]

the problem was, back in the day, noone wanted an extremly dark bleak batman movie. they wanted kid friendly superhero flick, not deep, dark stuff. nowadays, look. EVERYONE wants a dark tormented superhero with wackjob sinister creepy lookin villians. burton was ahead of his time, in a way.

 

[El Payaso]

the problem was, back in the day, noone wanted an extremly dark bleak batman movie. they wanted kid friendly superhero flick, not deep, dark stuff. nowadays, look. EVERYONE wants a dark tormented superhero with wackjob sinister creepy lookin villians. burton was ahead of his time, in a way.

People like that never got the proper recognition.

 

[The Sarge]

I wasn't allowed to watch Returns for years when I was a kid, (I was only 4 when it was released in theatres). I had seen 89 a bunch of times, and loved it, however my mom had decided that the sequel was too dark for me.
When Forever came out I asked my father if I could watch returns yet, and he just went "you haven't seen it?"
What a glorious moment my friends.

I've always wanted to see more Burton sequels. NEVER liked the Shumacher films.

 

[Finlandman]

I used to be in love with Burtons dualogy, but now I have found someone else...

 

[union_jak]

You can love/appreciate both you know.

 

[mongoose-mania]

I love Batman Returns. It was the first Batman movie I ever saw. It was the movie that got me into Batman in the first place!
Everything about this movie is wonderful. Tim Burton's incredible direction, the costumes, Danny Elfman's haunting score, the impeccable casting, I love it all so much.
Danny DeVito's Penguin really stole the show. Tim Burton took him from being a short, pudgy man and made him something vile and really intimidating. And Pfeiffer's Catwoman was just so friggin' sexy!
I love this movie. It will always have a very special place in my heart.