The Official Batman Returns Thread

Discussion in 'Batman World' started by snwboarder88, Aug 18, 2005.

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  1. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Yeah, silly me for misinterpreting someone surviving being shot 4 times at close range, an electrical inferno, and being dropped from great heights several times, and not a bother on them after any of it.

    How silly of me and millions of others for not interpreting that as normal human endurance :cwink:

    I've actually never even seen Halle Berry's Catwoman movie. She has kitty powers, too? Gee, I wonder where they got that idea from? :cwink:

    Wasn't Denise DiNovi, the producer of Returns also the producer on that movie, too?

    Look mate, if your only argument is "because Tim Burton said so", then we're done here. Directors can be notorious for poorly conveying something in a movie, despite what their intentions were, and this is a prime example of one of them.

    I don't know who Burton's medical consultant was for this movie, but they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground who ever they were.

    I'm not knocking Catwoman's supernatural abilities, I think they were a very cool. But don't accuse me of being argumentative for the hell of it. Trying to tell me that Catwoman had no supernatural abilities with everything she endured is like trying to say black is white.

    If you want to interpret her amazing survivals of death as adrenaline rushes, then go for it. I need a bit more meat to the debate other than "Because Tim Burton said so".

    Just agree to disagree.
     
    #701
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2010
  2. theMan-Bat

    theMan-Bat Team Classic DC

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    It's not supernatural. This is pretty standard stuff in Batman comic books.
    In Batman #5 (1941), "The Case of the Honest Crook" by Bill Finger,
    Batman is shot three times at close range, doesn't die and keeps coming after Smiley Sikes, and beats him,
    plus forces a signed confession proving Joe Sands’ innocence and then drags him to the police.
    [​IMG]
    Drops the paper and Smiley Sikes off at the Gotham Police Station,
    then Batman goes to a doctor and collapses.
    The doctor says "I don't know how he kept going the way he did with three bullets in him! Amazing...Amazing..."
    [​IMG]
    In Batman #245 (1972), "The Bruce Wayne Murder Case" by Denny O'Neil, Batman is electrocuted with hundreds of volts of electricity,
    doesn't die and recovers almost immediately.
    Also in the comics, Joker, for example, has been dropped from great heights many times:
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    Been struck by lightning:
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    Appeared to have died many times:
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    And doesn't die. Does that mean Batman and Joker are supernatural?
    No, and neither is Catwoman in Batman Returns.

    And the writers of that movie were John D. Brancato, Michael Ferris, and John Rogers, not Batman Returns writers Daniel Waters and Wesley Strick,
    and the director of that movie was Pitof, not Tim Burton,
    the "Catwoman" of that movie was Patience Phillips with kitty powers, unlike Selina Kyle.
    Director Pitof said "It’s very different, and that’s the whole point. To make something completely different and to start something with her.
    I mean, it’s a new start to “Catwoman.” Halle Berry is Catwoman and I think it’s been designed for her to make it very different." http://movies.about.com/od/catwoman/a/catwmpi071904.htm
    And director Pitof said "it's a different world. There's no link with Gotham City, and there's no link with any superheroes."
    http://www.comicbookmovie.com/catwoman/news/?a=892#int0
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica,sans-serif]"The idea is to develop this character in a relatively realistic world à la Spider-Man," he said.
    "We'll probably set it in the near future but in a North American urban setting, which is more classic.
    The main idea is to develop a female superhero and give her depth not to make her a bimbo or a sexy vigilante.
    She's a woman's hero for women. There will be no direct link with Batman, nor will there be Batman-esque imagery and it won't be set in Gotham City.
    The story will be different and the costume will be different.
    We aren't keeping anything from Catwoman except the original idea: the character.
    The idea is to begin her story from scratch, and possibly begin a franchise." http://www.cinecon.com/news.php?id=0304164
    [/FONT]
    Tim Burton has explained this in the Batman Returns commentary so there is really nothing to argue about.
    Tim Burton explains that it is deliberately ambiguous and intentionally mysterious, but not supernatural.
    "The ambiguous nature of the Catwoman. You start out when you see the creation with the cats coming around
    and it's not supernatural but we feed into the mythology of cats and 9 lives and all of that sort of thing,
    so in the same way with Batman, wanting to keep him sort of mysterious,
    we sort of treated the same idea with Catwoman a little bit and not come right out with it. It's not supernatural."
     
    #702
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2010
  3. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Wow, brilliant post, man. Seriously, I couldn't possibly counter debate that. That post is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. You're obviously a true scholar of Batman lore :up:

    You've convinced me. Well played, sir. It's great to debate with someone who has the hard facts to back up what they say :up:

    And it's given me a greater appreciation for Pfeiffer's Catwoman, whom I loved so much as it is.
     
    #703
  4. returntovoid

    returntovoid Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. :up::up:
     
    #704
  5. returntovoid

    returntovoid Well-Known Member

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    Batman 1989 is great but what I think is better about Batman Returns is that it has more psychological depth, more german expressionism, the difference between good and evil is more grey in the film, much more three-dimensional/tragic villain in The Penguin and a better female character that is stronger/more feminist (Batman's equal, not a damsel-in-distress).

    Both are great films and both are on my favorite films list.
     
    #705
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2010
  6. RustyCage

    RustyCage Come what may..

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    In response to theMan-Bat: That post was fantastic in terms of Burton being true to the source material. I greatly enjoyed the nostalgia trip. :)

    However, I have to say, while those things aren't necessarily 'supernatural', they clearly aren't very realistic. Most of the time.

    Either way, this has me wondering whether or not Joker really died at the end of '89...

    PS - Great post, returntovoid!
     
    #706
  7. eledoremassis02

    eledoremassis02 Well-Known Member

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    can any one provide links to scrips for Batman Forever scripts when they still had keaton/burton in mind
     
    #707
  8. returntovoid

    returntovoid Well-Known Member

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    Well, the script can't be found.

    But this Youtuber seems to remember reading it and maybe lost the copy.

    Tim Burton's Batman III:

    [YT]qCh34ORcXA0[/YT]

    Script points according to the Youtuber:

    -Chip Shreck blames Batman for the death of his father Max Shreck

    -Harvey Dent comes back from Metropolis

    -Chip Shreck tries to sue Batman in court but Harvey Dent defends Batman

    -Chip Shreck throws acid in Harvey Dent's face turning him into Two-Face

    -Two-Face starts to blame Batman for being disfigured

    -The mysterious Riddler played by Robin William sends Bruce Wayne riddles and seems to know he's Batman but they don't encounter each other until towards the end

    -Bruce Wayne goes to psychiatrist Chase Meridian after getting the riddles and they start dating but she get's murdered mysteriously

    -Batman think's Catwoman murdered her but he's not really sure

    -Batman does detective work to find out who's sending him the riddles and who really murdered Chase Meridian

    -Marlon Wayan's plays Batman's young mechanic but he never becomes Robin

    -Toward the end, The Riddler get's Batman to reveal his identity through the riddles

    -The Riddler and Two-Face never team-up in the script

    -Batman and Catwoman team-up to battle each villain separately, first they capture Riddler to take him to Arkham Asylum and then they encounter Two-Face (who dies)

    -At the very end, Batman and Catwoman are kissing under the moonlight then all of a sudden you hear the sound of him putting handcuffs on her. He takes her to Arkham for the murder of Chase Meridian but it's still unresolved since Catwoman says "Did I do that?" and it's open-ended, you never know whether she killed her or not.
     
    #708
  9. eledoremassis02

    eledoremassis02 Well-Known Member

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    Oh wow, thanks for the info. Sounds interesting.

    Here are some film cells I scanned

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    #709
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2010
  10. Chiroptera

    Chiroptera Guest

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    God, i wish Tim Burton made a third movie :csad:
     
    #710
  11. eledoremassis02

    eledoremassis02 Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking, was the abandoned zoo suppose to be abandoned when penguins parents dropped him in the lake?
     
    #711
  12. Two-Face

    Two-Face Harvey Dent

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    Thanks for clearing this up I always kept thinking whenever I watched the movie "Where Dent went during the events in Batman Returns?"
     
    #712
  13. Tacit Ronin

    Tacit Ronin Well-Known Member

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    Is it just me or is Batman Return's Blu-Ray picture quality much better than Batman 89?
     
    #713
  14. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    I agree, it seems much more crisp and clear. But then I think the visuals in Returns are so much nicer than B'89's. The snowy Gotham is just gorgeous.
     
    #714
  15. RustyCage

    RustyCage Come what may..

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    Yeah, it's always seemed like Returns had way better cameras or something, so I'm not surprised. You guys have me wanting to get a Blu-ray player!!
     
    #715
  16. Two-Face

    Two-Face Harvey Dent

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    Sure is. BR blu-ray is richer, sharper than Batman 89. If you look at Schumacher ones B&R has more crisp, clear and looked richer than Forever. Too bad B&R sucked though.
     
    #716
  17. mongoose-mania

    mongoose-mania Gentleman

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    After watching Batman yesterday, I saw it only fitting to watch this film as well.
    I never get tired of this movie. To me, it's just utterly beautiful throughout, and has such engaging character. Both Penguin and Catwoman are two of the most sympathetic characters, but because of all the things they do and get away with, you can't really root for them, and I love that.
    And the scene in which Selena Kyle trashes her apartment is probably one of my favorite scenes of all-time. And Danny Elfman's score over it just adds so much more. I love it.
     
    #717
  18. returntovoid

    returntovoid Well-Known Member

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    I learned a lot about Batman Returns from users Cain, Man-Bat, El Payaso and jamesCameronOnl. I've got a lot appreciation for Tim Burton's Batman films especially Batman Returns, now. :bow::awesome: Here's a blog post dedicated to every hard-core Batman Returns fan that got fed up with reiterating many times that Selina Kyle/Catwoman is not supernatural. Time to spread the word around that this is a misconception on the part of film-critics, audiences and some fans.

    http://backtovoid.blogspot.com/2010/11/its-not-supernatural.html
     
    #718
  19. GothamAlleys

    GothamAlleys Well-Known Member

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    ^ yup. The way I've always seen it is that the fall caused a brain damage and awakened some primal instinct, therefore she had all those physical abilities. As for being shot repeatedly and surviving, I also always excluded the supernatural. Theres toying with the idea present, but that its just all real life stuff. people survive multiple shots and we dont know if Selina did get some medical attention or if she somewhat healed the wounds herself, since she was quite immune to pain. Not to mention that none of her wounds were life threatening, she got mostly hit in the arms and on the sides of her body. The evidence that the 9 lives thing is just a metaphor is that Selina never actually died and yet she refers to all of her failings or falls as deaths and counted down the lives. I tihnk all that is simply yet another homage to the Golden Age where Catwoman ...well, stuff happened like in the movie, see for yourself

    [​IMG]

    And again, if anyone's trying to judge this movie by the standards of the "regular" movies that hes missing the point. Batman Returns, like most of Tim Burton's early movies, does not comply to the rules of logic and technical accuracy - nor does it need to, nor did it ever claimed to do. It's a ethereal and expressionistic tale, its just not that type of a story
     
    #719
  20. returntovoid

    returntovoid Well-Known Member

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    In the next panel for that comic, Catwoman declares in her thought bubbles that she made sure that the bullets in his gun were blank cartridges.
     
    #720
  21. GothamAlleys

    GothamAlleys Well-Known Member

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    I know but just that scene always reminded me of the scene with Shreck shooting. Plus there were instances of Catwoman falling off the plane and her body missing
     
    #721
  22. GREEN =w= DAY

    GREEN =w= DAY Well-Known Member

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    with X-Mas season already among us, it's only fitting that i watch this movie :woot:
     
    #722
  23. El Payaso

    El Payaso Well-Known Member

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    Catwoman fell into some kind of dam in the 1966 TV series and according to Batman no one could have survived that. He even cried over her death. But she came back... as Eartha Kitt. :woot:
     
    #723
  24. Bat-Mite

    Bat-Mite Well-Known Member

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    If only everyone could have such a resurrection! I loved the purrrrrrrrrrfect way in which she rolled her R's. She is a legend and is missed dearly.
     
    #724
  25. returntovoid

    returntovoid Well-Known Member

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    Ah, I get what you mean.


    Yeah, that happened in her first suggested origin from Batman #62 (1950). But what other comics did it happen in???
     
    #725
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